[Closed] What other trail sanitisation have you seen?

Laggan old red has had a bit which isn't great.

haldon red route, used to be techy now is a flat featureless beginners path.
give them (the builders/FC) their due its route through the forest is a lot better thought out but its just dull dull dull.
oh and bits are washed away even though the trails is just a few weeks old 🙁

Whinlatter (North Loop/Loop 1)

It was great before they built rocks upto all the barkless wet roots 😉

Way too much in the peak too

Surely there's been lots of stuff done at Innerleithen - ever since they decided to make it Red instead of Black. Strange though - I don't recall a massive STW whinge-fest about "dumbing down" then.

What about the Pie Run at GT?

There hasn't been much done to inners at all. They built a couple of new sections of trail when they changed it from Black to Red.

Trail maintenance and repair is not sanitisation. Without it there will be no trails left - just boggy morasses or erosion down to be bedrock or trees damaged or vulnerable to being blown down

Laggan red for example was worn out with huge braking bumps and erosion through the armoured surface.

got to agree with teej...........unfortunatley..... 😉

Correct. But getting the whacker plate out when the trails aren't damaged only increases erosion.

Also, surely having trails worm down to the bedrock is a good thing no?

let's see:
rocky track from Cattle grid above Blea Tarn to the forest (Little Langdale)
Walna Scar (now completely recovered)
Baysbrown - Oak Howe (Great Langdale)
Loughrigg Fell
Dubbs Res (mostly washed away)
Moor Lane, Satterthwaite (trashed)
Feizor (poo)
Ice Cream Run Rivi (recovered)
Roych Clough
Threshfield Moor (improved)
Mickle Moss, Kentmere (improved)
Pen-y-Ghent (improved hugely)
Long Lane, Clapham, Nth Yorks (equivocal)
Gorbeck Road, Settle (improved for normal folk, though I preferred it before)
Rushup (arguably improved)

Glen More wrote, "What about the Pie Run at GT?"

They took out one bit that was arguably out of grade- certainly out of grade for Glentress. It was causing crashes and also accelerating wear. If you want to call that "sanitisation" then go ahead but really it's just a fix.- I kind of miss it but I think the trail's better for it. Should probably say here that the suggestion to fix that bit actually came from the trailfairies, who built Pie Run, not from the FC.

just boggy morasses or erosion down to be bedrock

[b]BRING IT ON YAY!!![/b]

TJ = Tarty Jessy :o)

A lot of the sanitisation in the Lakes is piling gravel on top of centuries old, well established paths to make them more accessible to high heels and prams. It doesn't last.

SFB - You and I disagree on this. The erosion in the lakes since I went there as a kid is heartbreaking. 40 yrs I have been going into the fells, hills and mountains and the erosion is so obvious.

One persons techy rocky trail is anothers eroded mess - and the erosion only gets worse without repairs.

teej, my fondness for you grows by the minute....... 8)

Spooky wood at Glentress was massively smoothed over a few years back. Rebuilt I guess you could say into its present form. I probably prefer the old track on balance (although my memory of it is getting hazy), but there's no doubt that this section of trail is hugely popular. It was a successful rebuild from that POV.

Ton - I don't know whether to be flattered or scared

Dalbeattie has had work done over the last few years which always seems to concide with the local "Hardrock Challange " Last year Smithland hill a rocky stepping stone section which had matured into a gnarly section suddenly had tons of earth dumped on it smoothing out the rocks but leaving a very ugly scar.
This year a section below the slab has been sanitised and no longer poses any kind of challange to an experienced rider .
I have been led to belive this work was done to keep Dalbeattie red route designated as a red route otherwise it was going to be classed as black.
Surely some better course of action could be found rather than just removing the "hard bits"

Goodwood at Glyncorrwg has been made a little easier. Chatting to a few folks in the know, some numpty fell off and threatened to sue. Sad.

Even sadder as there's already a chicken run along all of the raised section anyway!

This debate is always going to generate two equally valid positions, which are almost impossible to reconcile: do we simply allow trails to wear in and wear out according to usage and let the rider beware; or do we promote more sustainable/accessible trails, which may at times mean compromising the difficulty and original features of the trails? Discuss.

One thing I notice is that riding different trails and a mixture of man made and natural makes me less possessive of my local trails and less inclined to grumble if they are tampered with for (in my opinion) better of for worse.

I will say that I took my wife to Laggan recently, and she loved the changes that had been made to the red route. I wasn’t completely convinced, but knew that I could go and ride the black whilst she went and helped herself to another slice of carrot cake…

Trail maintenance and repair is not sanitisation. Without it there will be no trails left - just boggy morasses or erosion down to be bedrock or trees damaged or vulnerable to being blown down

TJ - that's not always the case though, is it? for example, many of the old DH tracks at inners were never ever maintained/repaired and simply evolved over the years through use, weather and erosion. This actually made them some of the best DH runs on the hill.. then along comes the FC, H&S & vaious business people and either dug them up, felled the forest, bulldozed them or completely sanitised whole sections so they couild put up gay little signs/maps and make up lame colour coded difficulty ratings.

GW - I don't know the innerleithan DH trails - but were they sustainable as they were or would the erosion spread and spread?

Did Snowdon yesterday on the bikes, ascended via Llanberis path which was ruined as a descent and made easy as a climb on foot by the massive amount of armouring that has been put down. Descended via the path off to the left over the railway track (cant remember the name of it now!). Whilst it was a thrilling descent one or two sections are that badly damaged/collapsing through water damage and no doubt all the bikes/climbers that they are in real need of either armouring or some other form of help to stop them from sliding off the side of the mountain.

TJ wrote, "GW - I don't know the innerleithan DH trails - but were they sustainable as they were or would the erosion spread and spread? "

I could be wrong here but didn't the FC rebuilds come before the DH at innerleithen was so popular? What works for a relatively minor route stops working when you throw uplifts and hundreds of riders, and regular race events, at it.

Wa getting very upset with someone who insisted on digging out all the roots on a BKB trail build day

TJ - define "sustainable"?

Northwind - Ok. short history lesson (appologies if fI've got my dates slightly out) - I've only been riding/racing DH at inners since 1994/5 (but tracks were there before I was), from around 1996 inners has prob held on average 5/6 DH races a year with entries ranging from 250/350 at each race. around '97 mates of mine started the first uplift service (for upto 15/16 riders) and ran for about 2 years 1999/2000 the first purpose built tracks were built (with redbull funding) and an all new uplift service with capacity for 30riders a day ran for a few more years, the next uplift provider was the Hub (Glentress) and upped the rider capacity to 100 a day (cattle trucks) this ran for a couple of seasons during which health and safety stuck their nose in and declared cattle trucks unsafe and the shit hit the fan around this time DH track building changes to the trailcentre style stuff you'll find now, busses for riders and cattletrucks for the bikes became the solution, bumping up the cost of uplift and racing to silly money, the Hub threw in the towel and Tally (Ae-up uplift operator) took on the uplift about 3/4 years back it's becoming more and more of a trail centre these days so if by popular you mean squads of newbies doing multiple runs of "make or break" then yes.
keeping the tracks natural and difficult keeps the traffic down and the tracks evolve nicely IMO.

The drop offs at Cwmcarn were removed a couple of months ago. Just a couple of weeks ago the wall ride was removed also. Hence the "freeride" section now just has some doubles & mounds.... Really sad.

Thanks for that... I'm not sure though, at the end, are you saying that the trails other than Make Or Break aren't more busy than they used to be?

Not being cheeky but your post does come across as pretty elitist, "Keeping the tracks natural and difficult keeps the traffic down". Seems to me that Innerleithen's job these days is to get more people into DH? Keeping the traffic down isn't really much of a solution.

Northwind - Member

Not being cheeky but your post does come across as pretty elitist,

Yep. Been here before with climbing wall discussions too.

true comment tho mate.. afterall it is an Elitist sport. 😉

seem to think the op was talking about "natural" trails (if such a thing exists) rather than "man made" trails or trail centres which have to be maintained due to the use they get, whether we like it or not its nec to keep them useable for the numpties that can't enter a decent or corner without locking up and digging a big hole.
more lists like sbf's are prob what was req
simon has walna scar been done on the coniston side also there was murmers that gatesgarth had been done
suggsey think the route down you took of snowdon was the rangers track but best not mention it in case they "improve" it. we did it the other week - what a hoot
g

Most of the 'sanitised' trails in the Peak gradually revert to their formers selves thanks to a combination of regular use and serious water erosion from the rain. The Roych Clough track isn't what it was, but it's starting to get interesting again in parts, though I doubt the paved exit from the ford is ever going to the same again. Then again it used to be a steep, almost unrideable boulder field...

I'm quietly encouraged by the Cut Gate work, which at least was sympathetic even if some of it is a little trail-centrish in parts. Give it a few years. And the descent down behind the camp-site in Hayfield is arguably better than it used to be now and a lot faster, though the fast, wide centre section could do with some serious de-restoration...

Not sure what SFB means about Rushup.

As a monument to the longterm futility of trail restoration in the Peak, I give you Chapel Gate which has shrugged off all attempts at sanitisation and now resmebles an alpine boulder field 🙂

Not sure what SFB means about Rushup.

the section from the gate opposite Mam Tor up to the point where the litle sign directs bikes not to join the footpath:
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simon has walna scar been done on the coniston side also there was murmers that gatesgarth had been done

it was extensively trashed from end to end in 2002, but most of the work has washed away now and the former excitement restored 🙂

Gatescarth has had work done on it, but I've not riden it since to assess it.
[url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2009/20sep/DSC_0329_.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2009/20sep/DSC_0329_.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

the section from the gate opposite Mam Tor up to the point where the litle sign directs bikes not to join the footpath:

Yep, what confused me was that you marked it as 'arguably improved', whereas what used to be an entertaining climb and a vicious little downhills has incontrovertibly been wrecked. No room for argument whatsoever unless you're some fat munter who can't handle ribboned, technical Peak climbs 😉

[i]unless you're some fat munter who can't handle ribboned, technical Peak climbs [/i]

You've just described most of the riders I see out in the Peaks... 😉

SFB, you forgot to mention the Oak Howe descent - a previously wonderful packed stone descent now turned into a gravel road. 🙁

SFB, you forgot to mention the Oak Howe descent

>> Baysbrown - Oak Howe (Great Langdale)
was my 3rd item 🙂

Yep, what confused me was that you marked it as 'arguably improved', whereas what used to be an entertaining climb and a vicious little downhills has incontrovertibly been wrecked.

that was the general opinion, but as I'd never managed to ride up it except in very dry conditions due to its insane slipperiness, I wasn't so put out :o)

munter-barnes

The local authorities (ie council) are currently in the process of ****ing up a lot of the trails beyond imagination round here. In the last couple of years several skinny bridleways have been dug up, 'soil reversed', any unwanted surfaces (ie rocks, unevenness) removed, filled in or broken into a fine top. Neighbouring trees have been removed and streams channelized and diverted. Kms of singletrack have gone from 30cm wide to over 3m wide hard, even surfaced- that's wider and better condition than all local tarmac roads, forestry or estate tracks- especially given the massive open drains running alongside the new roads. These are rights of way that many of us have been using happily for 20 years, and in some cases longer.

I stopped for the diggers busily destroying one piece of track last week, and a guy who lives at the farm at the end of the track saw me and came over to chat about their work. He described it as “a piss-take... you'll have to go down there on rollerblades next”. The justification for this is that some of the routes have been subject to applications to change their status from bridleways to BOATs. Never mind the fact that you have to clear hundreds (no exaggeration) of trees, massively change the local environment, create huge roads where there were previously none... Nobody in their right mind wants this kind of access, and nobody can justify the damage being done in order to provide it.

Luckily they haven't quite managed to ruin everything yet, and they've recently started a 'consultation' regarding access to and conditions of the ROW network that might lead to a more enlightened approach. I'm not that optimistic however, two of the five 'solutions' proposed involved the wholescale “upgrading” of ROW in the manner described above. The other solutions were more complex and actually involved thinking about what the problems were and what future generations might hope the ROW network and environment to be like, rather than hastily throw money at something and hope that solves everything. As usual, it seems there are few people willing to engage in those kind of debates, and the few that are will not be heard or listened to, at least until there is a fundamental shift towards a more reasoned approach to issues surounding the environment and access.

This excesive motorway building around Blanchland? If it is, from what I understand, we have the byways and bridleways trust to thank for all the BOAT claims.

Perhaps you might want to show the local authority some of [url= http://www.northpennines.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=14150 ]this stuff[/url] from a seminar last spring run by the North Pennines AONB. Basically its looking at the issue unsympathetic track construction. Its a bit odd at the moment that Natural England and organisations like the AONB are trying to encourage low key sensative track construction techniques. Natural England have prosecuted private moorland owners for building motorways. Yet, some local authorities go out and build exactly that kind of track. Nothing like leading by example then.

OAP, that's on the edge of it, yes. [i]'Are you local'[/i]? as they say? Just saw your posts on the Co. Durham climbs thread and thought you might be, or at least know the area a bit.

Indeed that does seem to be who has been putting pressure on to get it done speaking to those in the know. Personally, I can't wait till they hard surface all the sheep tracks in the SSSis to 3m width. 🙁 That link is really useful to look at, thanks, I'll bookmark it. Perhaps the recent consultation will have done something to make the powers that be realise that their approach thus far is doing far more harm than good.

One of the first examples I ever saw was a fantastic final decent on the peak classic Baslow loop that went from Curber Edge down to Baslwo Village. They tarmaced it! Not sure a bit of heavy rain will improve that. The irony is, with a layer of wet leaves on it, it's suicidal down there now. (Not been there in so long now, it could be back to its original condition).

TandemJeremy - Member

Ton - I don't know whether to be flattened or scared

probably the latter followed by the former, from what i've seen of the pics! 🙂

sustainable = meeting the needs of today without comprimising the needs of tomorrow.

So if a trail is made crap now it doesn't count as sustainable as it doesnt meet todays needs.

Places with lots of DH rund usualy get lots of local pixies, as tracks cut up they build new ones and the old ones fade away.

I'd rather have a wood with 25 badly made rooty/muddy tracks (Shladming, sp?) than 5 sanitized motorways (Willingden).

On the other hand I quite like places like Cannock, no technical challange, just flat out fun.