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I have just bought myself a Keela Prosport - £100 in their Last Chance sale (and they gave me a free buff too).
Really impressed and has kept me dry while riding the bike and running the dog the last few days.
Warm too, with pit zips to help cool you
My Keela Saxon is great but more for short rides rather than all day biking or standing around. Keela supply emergency services and mountain rescue teams but couldn't justify the MRT spec jacket (£179) for just running a dog.
https://keelaoutdoors.com/product/prosport-jacket/
(Oh - and I've heard the Goretex no-pitzip theory but that doesn't explain why my two Freestyle jackets have pitzips. And when it is raining nothing really breathes...)
Maybe it was a moisture differential (not temp like I wrote) that they said was needed for the breathability in that case? Which as you say goes totally out the window in rain 🙂
Got one of these a couple of years ago
Stupidly expensive, but light enough that I take it on pretty much every ride (and it’s saved me from misery on many occasions), waterproof enough and very breathable. It’s the only waterproof jacket I’ve owned that actually works for moderate to high intensity efforts. I’ve never tried shake dry, but this is safety orange, which I’ve appreciated a few times when it’s suddenly turned murky.
I own a Trollveggen, but not the lite version. - I have full pro 🙂 It has pit zips.... I also don't think it would work very well on a bike because of the cut, and the very large hood that I think would struggle not to get to flap around. It is a very nice jacket though..
I don't know if they've dropped them but Norrona bitihorn might be a better bet on a bike.
As a ccomment to the various Rab suggestions, I haven't found any of the various Pertex, DWS treated jackets to last very well. Probably not a full winter season as genuinely waterproof...
totally waterproof jacket
Doesn't exist.
I’m not sure I’m hugely sold on my outdry jacket yet. Bought it for the really terrible days and was pretty impressed last winter on a truly horrible cold, wet day to still be dry at the end. But! We did quite a bit of standing around with a mechanical and losing someone, so I don’t think I ever got that hot and sweaty.
Last weekend in wales, loads of rain for a trip round w2, and while I don’t think I was getting wet from the rain even at the end of the day, I was sufficiently wet from sweat that I’m not sure it made much difference wrt how cold I got. I don’t think there was a huge difference compared to how my previous generic three layer jacket would have handled it. I don’t think anyone else was doing better, but I’m not sure I’m sold on outdry being better performing in those conditions. Same performance and no need to reproof, I’ll still take as a win, and it’s great as a walking jacket, but the breathability to some degree lets it down.
Whatever Paramo are doing in a lighter weight this year. Has the advantage of being repairable if it has a bad experience with brambles and infinitely re-proofable if the DWR get washed away after too many goes in the machine with Techwash. Strictly cold weather use only mind as they're too warm in the current weather add a base layer as the temperature heads below 0 in long or short sleeve flavour.
So many compromises with waterproofness and vapour permeability.
Then there’s the fact that a membrane/laminated jacket means, inevitably, DWR coating (which is now far less effective due to eco. considerations and even then, never seems as good when re-done). I’m told Goretex are still at the forefront on membrane technology.
Buffalo of Sheffield (darlings of the mountain rescue set I’m told) have an interesting approach to cold and wet with Pertex and fleece. The full mountain stuff is warm though IMO, (great pulling over for post ride as it actually dries you out). There are lighter (than the full fleece) lined options too.
I find this one useful. Very comfortable.
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/teclite-shirt/
And theres a bike specific option: http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/cycle-shirt/.
Their unlined “Curbar” is a great light pack small rain / wind jacket, good, but doesn’t fit this brief.
Nikwax Analogy seems a great idea too, if not too warm for you. No membrane must mean better life. Paramo use it https://www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/performancetechnology/fabrics/
If cost is an issue how about Army Goretex? From Silvermans in Mile End
You’d need that high viz mesh waistcoat over it of course.
Not sure how good the army jackets are for actually cycling in all day? Flappy ? That's the issue with the mountaineering jackets else the 'money no issue' options are the Trollveggen, Arcteryx Alpha (shorter than Beta or Gamma) or something from ME would be rated.
Isn't analogy another DWR efectively?
Buffalo of Sheffield (darlings of the mountain rescue set I’m told)
Completely different requirements. We have keela jackets that are similar, but generally its to keep warm and dry whilst not moving too quickly, ie in searches, or hanging around a casualty situation or awaiting a helicopter.
No way I'd want to MTB in them though.
Dude i owe you a beer, Being a bigger rider and wearing an xxxl (52") i've been struggling to find a quality waterproof jacket. This looks like it will does the job and it fits.
I'm properly confused...all the jackets being recommended all seem to have DWR coating...is there a waterproof jacket that doesn't use a coating? Based on my existing jacket, the coating doesn't last in the mud and grime of winter...so I'm keen to try and find something that isn't coated but will be very waterproof...it'll need to be pretty resilient to grime and backpack straps.
The stuff mentioned here that I've looked at (everything but the daft expensive jackets) all seem to have a DWR coating.
I don't want bulky or baggy/flappy but the Leela jacket looks like it'll be far too warm and I think their Stratos jacket appears to be coated, but that Stratos does look closest to what I think I'm after...
Pearl Izumi have a DWR treatment that is soaked into each individual fibre before weaving. It's meant to last much, much longer than spray on DWR.
Remember that is the membrane that does the hard work of keeping water out and allowing vapour out. The DWR merely adds an initial defense and slows wetting out of the fabric - which impacts breathability if it gets wet.
Things like Shakedry and Outdry move membrane to the outside, so not having wetting out issues and not needing DWR.
Although I’ve not tried anything as exotic as 7Mesh or Arcteryx, I’ve given up on trying to find the perfect outer layer. They’re all a massive compromise and never seem to live up to the hype.
If anything I think some of the modern fabrics perform worse than their predecessors
New Vapour-rise: about 20% as breathable as original VR. Magic-super breathable membranes that can’t touch the performance of eVent. Best-ever softshell materials that never seem as good as Gore N2S
Nowadays I try to manage with a softshell as long as I can, and then put a hard shell on if I absolutely have to.
I always use a paramo for walking- the fabric is brilliant. But it’s too hot for mtb outside of winter
all the jackets being recommended all seem to have DWR coating
A total contradiction in terms, the DWR coating is never durable and wears / washes out very quickly. They really good hydrophobic coatings are toxic long-chain fluoropolymer 'for ever' chemicals, which basically wear off the jacket, get into the environment and never break down. There was a trend to move to shorter chain versions, which were supposed to be nicer but IIRC they're no better for the environment.
So what is out there that is waterproof and doesn't use a coating?
How breathable is outdry?
IME, not particularly. But, like ShakeDry, it doesn't ever wet out because the waterproof layer is the shell layer, so it's dependably not particularly breathable for hours on end. ShakeDry is much, much more breathable, but mostly quite fragile - not recommended for use with packs even - bar the version they made for hiking, which is slightly more durable.
I like the Rab Kinetic stuff in changeable conditions, but I found the first version, anyway, wetted out quite easily. Maybe the new 2.0 ones are better.
Unless I’m mistaken all of their jackets rely on a coating and I can’t be doing with reproofing jackets. That is where I am currently at with my current jacket and want minimal maintenance/ less faff.
If by 'coating' you mean a DWR (durable water repellent) treatment on the outer surface, then OutDry Extreme and Gore-Tex ShakeDry are the only two options out there. If you mean a PU layer as opposed to a membrane, then you're misunderstanding what a 'reproofing' spray/treatment does as it's basically restoring the surface DWR rather than waterproofing the jacket, which is down to the integrity of the membrane or PU layer.
I'd probably get a 7Mesh Gore-Tex Pro jacket from 7Mesh if money were no object. Pro's a good balance of durability, breathability and weight, 7Mesh have Arc'teryx DNA in there and seem to know what they're doing. It's a slightly noisy fabric though, which might or might not bother you. Water will still go down your neck when it gets really wet though. Human beings are poorly designed 🙁
So what is out there that is waterproof and doesn’t use a coating?
OutDry Extreme and ShakeDry basically. The former is relatively tough, but offers average breathability. The latter is very breathable, but not very durable.
So what is out there that is waterproof and doesn’t use a coating?
Shakedry, Outdry and (arguably) Ventile don't use a DWR coating.
Only Ventile or Paramo don't have a membrane.
Ok, thanks, off to do more digging then, ta.
My old MT500 jacket is now no longer waterproof - still very windproof but soaked without much rain, but it is about 10 years old, been well used and I suspect is now just past the ability of being reproofed with any degree of success.
As I've had limited success with reproofing I'm keen to avoid having to do it. I'm pretty sure the grime of biking in wet and manky winters hasn't helped it, so need something hard wearing as I tend to wear things until they are worn out...would like another 10 years out of a new jacket.
Nowadays I try to manage with a softshell as long as I can, and then put a hard shell on if I absolutely have to.
I think if you want a shell to last, this is probably the best advice.
Agreed - and I'm the same. Good windproof that gets worn a lot more than a hardshell.
I wore my Buffalo shirt for the first time in 25 years for a bike ride last winter. On a handful of really wet and cold night rides it really was the business but those were nights I probably should've stayed at home but I was determined to get out every week regardless.
Things like Shakedry and Outdry move membrane to the outside, so not having wetting out issues and not needing DWR.
Yep as above, there's no DWR on Shakedry. Mine still beads like the day I bought it 5 years in. I now use it instead of a Pertex windproof as its so breathable and it looks fragile but has been down the road when me (and the bike) were totalled but the jacket survived largely intact.
I also use a softshell Neoshell style waterproof jacket for really filthy, cold winters days. That with a grid mid layer and a base layer keeps me warm down to some really horrible subzero temps (UK obv).
All road for context.
Looks like Paramo (Analogy) fabric may indeed use a DWR like coating. Hard to tell.
https://www.paramo-clothing.com/performancetechnology/
Be good to know if it differs practically.
Plus the Paramo clothing is sturdy (probably runs too hot)
DWR is pretty crappy stuff especially the recent eco-offering.
And yes ALL membrane jackets use it. It wears / washes off pretty fast.
I’m told Gore has best modern DWR.
Ventile fabric appears to be coated too, but may be satisfactory without. I don’t suppose it had DWR in the WW2 pilot saving outfits first made of it.
Pertex (like Buffalo use) is DWR coated but works just as well when it’s washed / worn off.
It’s all about the wicking.
And as for Re-treating -
Beware submerging ANY garment with a wicking liner in proofing liquid like TX10 wash in. It ruins the breathability of the wicking lining. (Buggered one of my Buffalo tops - and Nikwax support seem uneducated on that issue)
That also means that Nikwax soft shell proof is no good on wicking soft shell. (Which to me is pretty much all of it).
Minefield, trying to keep dry and not sweat too much.
I go windproof, then add thin shell just when needed. As others have advised.
Put the Buffalo Super 6 shirt on apres ride as it dries you out quick.
Pretty much every system other than waxed cotton (or plastic like the Danish “rains” coat) seems to use DWR as a “beading” agent. They ought to rename it though - NON - Durable Water Resistant coating!
How about this? Giro Chronosync Pro Neoshell with the addition of a Goretex gilet if the heavens open.
(Repurpose an old Goretex jacket by judicious use of scissors.)
Neoshell is, it seems, more wind than water resistant. Keep moving and it’s prob fine. Does it rely on DWR. Who knows.
Andrew likes it here - pretty UK like the Canadian raid I’d think.
On my wish list. :
https://nsmb.com/articles/giro-chrono-pro-neoshell-rain-no-rain-jacket/
I think it's always going to be a minefield given the weather conditions in the UK the activity levels of mountain biking and your personal levels of sweat production. No solution for one will be the ideal for another.
Neoshell is, it seems, more wind than water resistant. Keep moving and it’s prob fine. Does it rely on DWR. Who knows.
No, it's waterproof, but sometimes not as durably waterproof as Gore-Tex. It's some sort of micro-engineered PU membrane sandwiched between two layers of fabric. Gore-Tex is an EPTFE membrane sandwiched between two layers of fabric. Both have a DWR fluoro-polymer, or similar treatment on the face fabric. If the outer fabirc wets out, breathability is dramatically reduced. Wearing a Gore-Tex gilet over NeoShell would be, erm, eccentric.
I think people are overthinking this. Certiifed waterproof fabrics that have passed tests are all effectively waterproof, at least initially. They differ in terms of breathability and long term durability of waterproofing. I think NeoShell got something of a bad rap on this as there were early batches that fell down on durability of waterproofing, but that's anecdotal.
Paramo relies more than any other fabric on DWR, basically if the face isn't DWR treated, it doesn't work properly at all. It uses Nikwax as Paramo and Nikwax are both effectively part of the same company or group or whatever, owned by Nick Brown who founded Nikwax. Most Paramo stuff is made in Colombia in a social project.
Anyway, if you run hot and ride mountain bikes you will get damp wearing anything in wet conditions, waterproof or not. I'd reframe it as looking for a clothing system that will keep you 'comfortable' rather than protected from rainfall. If I can sweat my butt off wearing a simple windproof in dry conditions at relatively low temperatures, which I can, how is any waterproof fabric going to miraculously stop that happening just because it's raining? But we're all different, if you run cool, ride steady and don't sweat much, your balance of needs will be different.
Neoshell is, it seems, more wind than water resistant. Keep moving and it’s prob fine. Does it rely on DWR. Who knows.
Assuming there aren't multiple flavours of Neoshell - me.
My Sportful Fiandre Neoshell jacket is the same age as my Shakedry. I couldn't decide which to buy at the time so bought both...
I've been out in torrential rain and stayed dry. It breathes as well as the Shakedry but is a bit warmer being more softshell. When I first bought it, I rode a full day with a chum who'd just bought A Gore-Tex Pro jacket. We were similarly dry at the end of the ride.
I occasionally wash it in the Nikwax reproofer but it doesn't need it. There doesn't seem to be a lot of performance difference between recently washed/proofed and not done for ages.
I use Neoshell when I'm wearing it all day in lower temps and Shakedry when I might have to carry it.
Gore-Tex is an EPTFE membrane sandwiched between two layers of fabric
The PTFE layer was/is coated with PU to avoid contamination. Early Gore-Tex (~1976) suffer body oil contamination which ruined its waterproofing so they added PU which then compromised breathability...
IIRC, eVent was/is PTFE without the PU which was manufactured after WL Gore's IP protection ran out and explains why it was claimed to be more breathable than Gore-Tex but needed more care.
I think Shakedry is supposed to be just the PTFE bit without the other 2 layers. Dunno if it's still PU coated but it certainly breathes better than any other Gore product I've had (many).
I would have thought Nikwax TX10 or similar wash in DWR would knacker the breathability of Neoshell. It certainly knackered a lined Buffalo I used it on.
Later I discovered Buffalo say “wash in” is no-go with breathable fabrics.
I would have thought Nikwax TX10 or similar wash in DWR would knacker the breathability of Neoshell.
Why would it do that?
I would have thought Nikwax TX10 or similar wash in DWR would knacker the breathability of Neoshell. It certainly knackered a lined Buffalo I used it on.
That would seem logical but it, in practice, it doesn't (IME).
I would have thought Nikwax TX10 or similar wash in DWR would knacker the breathability of Neoshell. It certainly knackered a lined Buffalo I used it on.
Later I discovered Buffalo say “wash in” is no-go with breathable fabrics.
I'm guessing what it did with the Buffalo is reduce any wicking properties that the pile liner possessed by rendering it hydrophobic. You's probably be better off with a spray-on treatment for the outside. If you still have the Buffalo, try washing it in a normal detergent, then rewash with a soap-based tech cleaner and finally spray treat the Pertex face fabric. It'll likely be fine.
edit: which is pretty much what Buffalo suggests on its website:
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/advice/care/
Shakedry is inside out Gore-Tex without the internal ‘protective’ fabric - effectively it’s just the PTFE layer. Amazing to just watch the rain bead and roll-off - picked up a ShakeDry insulated last year - ideal for Scottish winter riding.
I tried a Paramo jacket in the arctic winter once - the kind of conditions where it should have been ideal - it was laughably useless, sopping through even with the ventilation zips wide open and the flappy fit was really annoying in high winds
I think it’s always going to be a minefield given the weather conditions in the UK the activity levels of mountain biking and your personal levels of sweat production. No solution for one will be the ideal for another.
This is spot on.
i'm with the others on the thread of windproof / wind resistant soft-shell in all but the worst of the weather (with temp appropriate layers underneath) and emergency shell layer for when it turns biblical / mechanicals / stops - as much to keep heat in as water out. being wet when your riding isn't an issues, but being cold and uncomfortable is, keep the wind chill off and riding soggy for several hours isn't a problem.
personally i't spend your money on a half decent softshell (i've got a stretchy mountain equipment windstopper softshell that refuses to die) and a decent mid layer (patagonia R1 pullover being my preferred choice). then by a cheap shell to keep in your pack for emergencies - mountain biking kills shell jackets so tend to buy what ever is on sale for this purpose knowing it won't get heavy usage but equally i don't have to be too precious about it (currently got goretex pacliet jacket that i picked up form sportspursuit for £50 iirc)
^ Got all that other stuff an agree with those points on layers and staying warm as the #1.
As in the OP "I just want a really good outer barrier to the wet"
I am really then looking at Outdry, Shakedry, Gore Tex Active or Paclite jackets that don't have weird fit and maintain some kind of Winter visibility.
I've got some inspiration on other brands to try so that is great
Is Dryvent any good as a waterproof fabric? Anybody use North face? I believe it used to be called Hyvent all i know is it's a polyurethane fabric.
There is a tradeoff for a high waterproof rating, and that is low breathability and moisture coming from inside the jacket. I not looking for a completely waterproof rain jacket, if that means venting body heat and sweat will be impossible.
Is Dryvent any good as a waterproof fabric? Anybody use North face? I believe it used to be called Hyvent all i know is it’s a polyurethane fabric.
I've had HyVent skiwear for years and it's been pretty good though obv in cold/dry conditions (usually). When it has got wet, I've stayed dry.
I think I'd still go for Shakedry/full fat Gore-Tex/Neoshell over HyVent for UK conditions tho...
i've got an arcteryx alpha FL that i picked up for a bargain £120.
for that price its an amazing jacket. for the RRP? no chance. i run/ride/kayak/climb/hike in it and take very little care of it. keeps on working. could probably do with a proper wash and recoat soon but i never quite get around to it.
Badly wired dog
Yeah mr Buffalo told me it basically waterproofs the breathable fleece lining. So stops it working as designed. I’ve washed and washed. Maybe 25 times. It still seems sweaty. Never did before. I’ll keep going!
Plainly wash in is waterproofing The wicking liner so no more wicking.
Beware.
Nikwax instructions and support are poor on this. You can find the message not to use on wicking lined garments but it’s not always clear.
I’m changing to Grangers.
https://7mesh.com/mens-revelation-jacket
Money no object, removable hood.
Has anyone actually got one of these ? how well does it pack down ?
Cheers
For mountain biking i have a very old Gore Paclite in bright green, which is still excellent.
However, as the owner of a shakedry (Castelli Idro Due), i would strongly recommend that, perhaps with some reflective belt thing over the top if that is a big concern.
I don't think i'd ever use the shakedry offroad though as I imagine it would tear easily and not be very amenable to repair.
@lowey, don't have the Revelation but do have the 7Mesh Guardian (Gore Active rather than Pro) which is not a million miles off and it packs down fairly small, but not tiny. Too big to put in my 2L Dakine hip pack, but would go in a 5L one no problem. Revelation will be slightly less packable, but not by much.