[Closed] What makes a world class XC race course?

Surrounded By Zulus - Member

Seeing as many people, including me, think that the 2012 olympic course is a whole heap of rubbish - what makes a good one?

Probably a question better asked of a world class XC racer rather than a bunch of forum dwellers who have already said the course for London 2012 is crap, in stark opposition to the XC racers who've said it looks like a good [i][b]RACE[/b][/i] course

The Canberra course was extreme to say the least. I have ridden it (although in a degraded condition) and it didn't really like it. The climb was narrow, hard to pass and extremely difficult which no doubt led to hold ups. The start of the downhill (ie. Hammerhead and just before it) was super technical and still quite narrow and then the bottom section was fantastic.

The WC course at Stromlo doesn't get ridden because it is too extreme for just about everyone: both up and downhill. There are far better trails on the Mountain. Not the best course. No where near IMO.

The only other top level course I've ridden is Dalby and that is great. Good climbs that are wide enough to overtake. Singletrack sections with breaks to allow passing opportunities, technical sections that have multiple options. It is fun to ride and fun to race.

As above, the WC course at Dalby is excellent. A whole load of fun to ride under normal conditions but you can see how it'd double up as a great race course - as above, technical multi line sections that reward racers taking the riskier, technical lines, plenty of overtaking sections, tough climbs, fast swoopy singletrack and LOTS of good vantage points for spectators. Why a field down south was chosen over Dalby is a mystery.

I think one thing to bear in mind is the racing. The tougher courses technically can become a little processional IMO. As lame as I think Essex looks at face value, stick 50+ riders on it, could be quite exciting as you can overtake everywhere.

Why a field down south was chosen over Dalby is a mystery.

Be even more of a mystery if they'd chosen a forest in Yorkshire for the London Olympics, though.

As lame as I think Essex looks at face value

Personally disagree - it's an XC race course, doesn't look that bad at all.

The only XC race course I've ridden is the Fort William one. While enjoyable enough in places it did seem to have a tendency to climb up the bits I'd have wanted to descend, so I reckon what I want from a route and what makes a decent XC race course are probably quite far apart.

Why a field down south was chosen over Dalby is a mystery.

Erm, cos it's like, the London Lympics? Y'know, so stuff needs to be at least fairly near London?

Did that thought ever cross your mind? Is the fact that you haddunt thought of that the cause of so much mystery?

Anyway; MTB XC racing is a low-interest TV sport compared to athletics and track cycling and that, so the organisers won't be bothering so much about it. I mean let's be honest; how many folk worldwide (not just you cos you're into bikes) be actually watching a 2 hour or whatever XC race which doesn't provide much in the way of real excitement or entertainment? So why go to great lengths to create a wonderful course when not many people will be watching? TBH I doubt I'll even be watching; I'll probbly be out fleecing tourists or something...

Erm, cos it's like, the London Lympics? Y'know, so stuff needs to be at least fairly near London?

I dont see the Sailing events on the Thames, nor all the footy events only in London grounds.

Oh, and instead of this yet again tedious troll from Zootroll; how about starting a thread on 'What makes a World Class Velodrome'? Hmm? Or is that beyond your capabilities, SBZ?

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Ooh look near my house not near your house. 😀

I dont see the Sailing events on the Thames, nor all the footy events only in London grounds.

Not sure why, but footy is always all over the country, and sailing is (for obvious reasons) "allowed" to be elsewhere.

I dont see the Sailing events on the Thames, nor all the footy events only in London grounds.

The sailing is down in Dorset for obvious reasons, as the conditions for sailing are ideal there (Beijing olympic sailing was thousands of miles from Beijing itself), and the footy, well that's quite daft tbh as there are several stadiums in London which could host matches; Wemberly, Emirates, WHL, Stamford Bridge, Twickenham, Loftus Road, Craven Cottage, The Valley, Upton Park and Selhurst Park. Even the nearby Brisbane Road for early stage matches.

Sure, the XC course would undoubtedly be better somewhere like the Lakes, Wales, Scotland, but XC racing is a low-priority to the organisers. A hill in Essex which has good access from London, easy to set up TV equipment and that, is a safer bet.

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Oh look Elfin - Scotland is getting its own world class velodrome.

I dont see the Sailing events on the Thames, nor all the footy events only in London grounds.

And the Olympics was sold on being of benefit to the whole country, not just London.

Well I suppose it's been awhile since someone moaned about the Olympics XC course.

Be even more of a mystery if they'd chosen a forest in Yorkshire for the London Olympics, though.

Erm, cos it's like, the London Lympics? Y'know, so stuff needs to be at least fairly near London?

Erm they didn't stick the sailing on the Essex, Kent or Sussex coast did they? It would be no different to that.

Great. Fantastic. Not as nice as our Lympic one, but it's nice to see the Scottish people getting something. And the UK will have 3, not one, World Class Velodromes. Excellent.

As for 'what makes a world class XC course'; one which will have world class XC racers on it. And if they've said it's good, then I'll listen to them, not some internet troll.

Why not come down, have a go on it? Prove what a World Class XC racer you are? I'm sure we can find some Soft Southern lads for you to race against. You up for that? Or just gonna sit there and whinge and moan and criticise like you normally do?

I dont see the Sailing events on the Thames, nor all the footy events only in London grounds.

And the Olympics was sold on being of benefit to the whole country, not just London.

Eh - in that case then we could of moved the OXC. That's my whole argument.

Erm they didn't stick the sailing on the Essex, Kent or Sussex coast did they? It would be no different to that.

I don't know nuffink about sailing, but I'd imagine the UK sailing community were involved in choosing a location, and Poole was the best option.

What part of London is Hampden Park located in? It's not even the same country ...

It's in Scotland, so you'll be able to go and see a London Olympic Event. Aren't we good to you? 🙂

Are we done here? I think so.

Unless you are going to put your money where your gob is, come down and race against some XC racers down here....

You're not though are you? Just gobbing off as usual. Smee Smee Smee....

Yes, I think we're done, Mrs Higgins...

I don't know nuffink about sailing, but I'd imagine the UK sailing community were involved in choosing a location, and Poole was the best option.

Well i know loads about it and 90% of the major events in this county go there or in that region. Its always the same.

To do a major champs we regularly had to tow down from the NE, in some instances fortnightly. When holding a Europeans in the NE we struggled to attract 20 boats. But this is getting onto a different theme.

What im trying to say is that TeamGBR sailing wouldnt have even contemplated going elsewhere.

Are the 2012 MTB riders bunking in the Olympic village? If so I'd say it (only just) justifies choosing a crap venue closer to London, I thought part of the "Olympic Ideal" was that everyone got a chance to have a go on a gymnast or something. If the teams are staying out closer to Hadleigh Farm, then they should have shifted the whole thing to Portland where they could have a cracking course and bunked with the sailors.

Like the Beijing olympics didn't have some events hundreds of miles away from Beijing because the facilities were there which Beijing didn't have? Same in this case?

Jesus, this forum is home to some complete morons...

I don't know nuffink about sailing, but I'd imagine the UK sailing community were involved in choosing a location, and Poole was the best option.

And the UK MTB community was involved and chose a field in Essex with no existing trails so everything had to be built from scratch?

Face it, they should have had the Olympics somewhere else in the UK with decent facilities instead of having to make do and have it in the sh*t hole that is London.

Oh dear. 😐

I look forward to seeing you taking over as Olympic President sometime soon, DBW...

Face it, they should have had the Olympics somewhere else in the UK with decent facilities instead of having to make do and have it in the sh*t hole that is London.

I believe you;ll find that Manchester tried and failed.

Erm, cos it's like, the London Lympics? Y'know, so stuff needs to be at least fairly near London?

oh yea.. all the events are close to london 😉

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ok i will bite.

It is a race course not a sunday bimble. You may or may not be aware that racers do not stop half way up a climb and get a cheese board out, you may or may not be aware that racers leave the car park and ride their bikes.

Youo don't need a big hill for a race, in my opinion lots of small climbs and decents are more testing than one big climb, keep the track reasonably wide and you can get people over taking.

The number of people on here who complain about F1 being a procession. make the lap 5miles of singletrack and hey presto you have a procession.

As for invoving the MTB community, who designed the course? Martyn Salt? obviously never designed an mtb course in his life....

Martyn Salt? Just googled him.... Seems he was never a mountain biker, just a marketing guy.

Meanwhile, somewhere in Marjons College, Plymouth a disillusioned retail manager turned mature student was planning a career move........

This impressive start would set Salt's direction over the next decade to become one of the most renowned mountain bike race organisers in the UK, and more astonishing for a scene awash with budding amateurs was that the man from Plymouth held no initial interest in the sport.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/mtb/article/mtb20090609-Interview-Martyn-Salt

Still, I think the course looks alright for what it is - can't say I'd be itching to have a go on it but that's not really the point. I did enjoy the carnage of that one in Australia (I think it was).

I do love these regular rants. Living right on the door step of the venue I am personally pleased to see it here. Yeah it may not look like the best trail centre the worlds ever seen but it's better than we had before so I personally couldn't give a cr4p what the trolls on here think!

Surely one more MTB venue than we had before is a good thing, regardless of how rad it is!

The only venues outside London are:

- Eton Dorney (Windsor way): Rowing
- Hadleigh Farm: MTB
- Broxbourne, Essex: kayaking
- Portland: sailing
- plus the regional football stadia used in the opening rounds.

All the important football games are played in London, it's just the ones no one cares about that are in the other regions.

The IOC are very hot on the spread of venues, it was a huge pull for London that events wouldn't be all over the place, like it or not it is a London Olympics, and the fact there are 8 football games elsewhere is neither here nor there. I believe the reason this was done was because a special designated 'Olympic Route Network' is defined for each venue, allowing safe and easy passage of the athletes and 'Olympic Family'. If you start using all the football stadia in London you rather quickly start taking over the entire city for one event. Place them in the regions and it's much less stress on the infrastructure.

Sailing has a very unique requirement, and I strongly suspect all the idiots saying "why not just do it on the Thames/Sussex/Kent Coast" is like all the sailors saying "why not just hold the MTB in Hyde Park", there's grass.

It does seem ridiculous the constant whinging, I wonder how long this will go on for, I imagine well into 2013 and beyond.

I've got my tickets, I'll be there!

As for invoving the MTB community, who designed the course? Martyn Salt? obviously never designed an mtb course in his life....

Martyn didn't design the course, he is in charge of running the event though and I can't think of a better person for the job.
Phil Saxena designed/built the course.

- Eton Dorney (Windsor way): Rowing
- Hadleigh Farm: MTB
- Broxbourne, Essex: kayaking
- Portland: sailing
- plus the regional football stadia used in the opening rounds.

I thought the shooting was at Bisley, or do you consider that inside London?

[url= http://www.london2012.com/games/venues/the-royal-artillery-barracks.php ]Shooting is in Woolwich[/url]

As lame as I think Essex looks at face value, stick 50+ riders on it, could be quite exciting as you can overtake everywhere

Exactly.

If you think that a nice bit of techie singletrack makes good racing, then you're a complete numpty.

An XC race course needs to be fast and open with lots of overtaking opportunities. It's not a Sunday bike ride, it's an XC race with a close field, and taht has requirements taht some of you seem utterly unaware of.

Still, don't let that stop you bleating shite online though.

The people who designed it know more about racing than you; the people who will ride it know more about racing than you; the people who are running the event know more about racing than you. So STFU basically, you know nothing.

Ha ha! Nice one Mol! Like it... 😀

I like the fact that the Lympics being in London really pisses some people off. Speshly people like SBZ.

London = Better than where you live. Sorry, but it's true. You may not like it, but that's the way it goes. The sooner you accept it, relax your sphincters and just go with it, then the happier you'll be. 🙂

I do love these regular rants. Living right on the door step of the venue I am personally pleased to see it here.

Innit though? Just jealousy cos all they've probbly got in whatever miserable Godforsaken dump they live in is a couple of cycle paths and a run-down municipal swimming pool and dilapidated running track with bits of burnt out car on it, surrounded by The People That Culture Forgot. 😉

Ha ha! You're rubbish so there!

No don't argue please I'm not interest. Quiet now.

London = Better than where you live.

How did you figure that out?

London

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Not London

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but as much as it pains me to agree with you... you're right about the olympics. The course is in the right place.

Erm you've posted a pic of some bleak, desolate place miles from anywhere with virtually none of the things I enjoy in life in close proximity. Not really sure what point you're trying to make. I don't mind countryside for a bike ride now and then and that, but I woon't want to live there. Y'know, people are different and that. I prefer an urban environment to a rural one, generally. Now it might be difficult to get your mind round that, but praps you might want to consider people might just conceivably think different to you.

No-one's forcing you to watch the Lympics, or ever come to London. Fact is you [i]will[/i] do both.

So be quiet.

Why you not use this picture to make your point?

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I like, so that's all that matters really.

I figured with you posting on a mountain bike forum, like me you'd rather be in a rural setting than an outdoor one.

It was a mistake, I now realise that you're not at all like me... in fact I don't think you're quite like anybody i've met before fred!

I'm all for the London Olympics, we tried to get them in the north a while back and I just don't think we have the infrastructure to deal with that number of people for a prolonged period, but one thing you might want to to do is take five minutes from smelling you own smug London Olympic farts and understand that a great number of people are paying into their taxes for this and not seeing a great amount of benefit (or even tickets) coming their way.

Y'know, people are different and that.

It was a mistake, I now realise that you're not at all like me... in fact I don't think you're quite like anybody i've met before fred!

Believe it.

Shoon't make such assumptions about others based on your own limited view, should you? Hopefully you'll think of this in future.

one thing you might want to to do is take five minutes from smelling you own smug London Olympic farts and understand that a great number of people are paying into their taxes for this and not seeing a great amount of benefit (or even tickets) coming their way.

Don't really care. The tickets are available to all regardless of where they live, and the venues will be international standard ones, and will benefit all of the UK's sports bods, not just London-based ones. Same way as how World Champs are held at Manchester and attract the World's Elite, not just people from the Manchester area like Binners, Derek Starbelly, Harry Spider, Hora and them.

I have no sense of smell so fortunately it's just you who can smell my farts.

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Teh reason Manchester did not get the Olympics was the lack of support from Westminster. it was a far better option than London where the difficulty in getting around the various sites and the congestion is going to be a major issue and the Manchester bid would have done far more for the rest of the UK. Usual parochial and provincial outlook from the London / Westminster crowd

What really annoys is scotlands sporting bodies are losing funding to pay for the London Olympics - its a huge net loss of money for Scotland. There is no legacy for scotland at all - just a huge funding loss.

We'll have a good legacy from the 2014 Commonwealth Games though TJ.

Which is being paid for by scotland - almost no UK money whereas the Olympics gets huge UK funding - robbing scotland of funding for no return

Nothing new there though is there.

Usual parochial and provincial outlook from the London / Westminster crowd

Yes.

And?

Deal with it, girlfriend...

I'm going out now bye.

how does a post about how to design a good xc course come down to a whinge fest?

typical STW and typical scots vs english. grow up ladies behind the keyboards!

good point well presented - apologies.

it wasnt really aimed at you TJ... 🙂

I know this is a bit of a pointless argument, although I do have one question.

Will us mere mortals get a chance to show how crap we are on the Olympic course, or is it just reserved for the XC machines?

If it's the latter, then who really cares 😀

So, I understand there was a topic, once upon a time.

From a racer's point of view, how was the fort william route rated? I've raced parts of it in my guise as "incredibly s*** XC racer" and it seemed decent- horrible climbs, interesting if not very techy descents. In terms of difficulty it doesn't seem that different from the olympic course in fact. Don't know if Nessie was used as part of the world cup route though or if there was other professional-level stuff removed to protect the knobbers. Though it's not wide, and passing on the descents needs a little work.

But looking at the Olympic route, there's a couple of bits that I'd not be too glad ride on something with racy angles, skinny tyres, and a seat up my bum. Looking at those bits from a trail riders point of view, with a ton of grip and a dropped seatpost, they look fun. But I've never really understood why they get so much slagging. There's a gap jump FFS, none of that at FW and I don't think there's any at Dalby either?

No it's not a mountain. I suppose FW's course is [i]on[/i] a mountain but it doesn't go high up it, I think the highest point is 300 metres.

deja vu ?

It's not about how hard it is to ride, it's about the actual race. In the same way as Mt Ventoux is just smooth tarmac...

At least they teach people how to spell outside of London...

Oi, I was bringed up proper, none of that Wales-shire teachering. 🙂

As for invoving the MTB community, who designed the course? Martyn Salt? obviously never designed an mtb course in his life....
Martyn didn't design the course, he is in charge of running the event though and I can't think of a better person for the job.
Phil Saxena designed/built the course.

Mtbmatt, NO, i definitely did not design or build the track at Hadleigh!!! Where did you get that info?

I Really don't get most of you lot!

To Answear the OP qustion; what makes a good world class XC Course,

Fort Bill (inc a world cup DH course as well)
Dalby
Plymouth

(nice spread across the counrty!)

[/b]Now can anyone tell me if there is there any other country that have [b]3 world cup courses that Jo Bloogs can go and ride? (ok Plymouth is only when there is a race on)

And now the UK has got a Olympic MTB course! (the event is a one off and TOTALLY diff type of event to world cup racing so the venue has to be to a differnt standard/aims)

Why moan and bitch when we got all this AND pleanty of good trail centers and natrual places to ride, to keep every happy!