OK, so it's a slightly weird question and of course comes with certain caveats like "the rider" being the obvious answer.
As some of you may have seen me and a mate are doing some Spring Classics riding in Belgium next year. My plan was to do it on a recent purchase of a CX500 Merida Cyclocross bike.
But i've come to the realisation (again, i know) that riding position just doesn't do it for me. In the last week i've developed pain in various parts of my body which i NEVER get when using the 29er HT. But lets not get hung up on that for now, that's not changing.... the bike is.
So lets assume i'm going to use a 29er HT (Happens to be a Parkwood in this instance) for the event, what's the thing that's going to give me a bit 'more' in the way of speed.
So things i can't/won't change. Frame, bars.
things i'm happy to change.
wheels, tyres, forks
Which of these is likely to give the most benefit for an increase in performance.
WTB i27 wheels
Maxxis Crossmax 29x2.25
Rockshox recon TK silver.
I'm unlikely to swap ALL... but 1 or 2 of the 3, potentially. I'm thinking say, a set of Chinese carbon forks.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-15mm-Thru-Axle-Carbon-Gravel-Bicycle-Forks-CX-Cyclocross-Bike-Carbon-Forks/254061796396?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=553659513770&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
then a pair of CX tyres/commuter tyres....
But would these things give an actual performance benefit ?
Sticking both of the above would give me about 1.5kg off the weight of the bike of course, but that's still leaving it at about 11kg..
(yes i know aero plays a massive and likely the biggest factor, but that's not going to work here...so we have what we have... )
not be cheaper just making the CX bike fit ye properly?
to answer question though, rigid forks and the thinnest slicks you can get will most likely add the most speed.
No idea how heavier your wheels are, but that'll make a difference too, but as well starting with tyres firstly, as that'll remove a load of rotational weight and roll best. Probably most bang for buck.
Fork you'll save a load of weight on no doubt, the recon tk is a shanner of a fork anyhow, so just fling that away regardless! 😆 go for the carbon.
Tyres I would say. You don't want to go too narrow as we are talking cobbles but 28mm GP4000s is my normal choice. Before I had my road bike I had a set of wheels with narrow rims for my mtb
+1 for tyres. Something like Schwalbe G-One Speeds run tubeless would be a good call on either bike, but I'd look at riding the cross bike more - your body will likely adapt - and tweaking its riding position maybe.
Could it be when you're MTBing you change position a lot more than road riding, so not getting the same aches?
If you go the the Parkwood, consider some barends for varied and potentially slightly more aero positions.
Could it be when you’re MTBing you change position a lot more than road riding, so not getting the same aches?
Of course, there could also be some 'get used to it' in there as well... But we've tried this before in the past few years with CX/Road bikes and i end up seeming to come back to the simple fact that, they give me problems. Usually knee based (I had surgery and repair on knee several years ago) that never seems to trouble me on the MTB, but also neck/back issues which i'm guessing is from the bars being narrower, the forearm one is a new one, but i think not insurmountable.
Riding the CX bike more could well be the answer... possibly.... maybe... ish. But i'm not feeling that idea nearly as much.
If you are only prepared to change wheels, tyres and fork, you're not going to see major improvements in speed (assuming you're riding a reasonable quality slick tyre) so I wouldn't worry about it and would just enjoy the ride. Why do you need to be "faster" and how much faster would you need to be?
With your cross bike, don't underestimate how long it can take to get your position correct. Small changes in saddle fore/aft or height, stem length/rise, bar angles can make the difference between comfortable long distance riding and ride ending discomfort.
Tyres and tubeless I'd say, unless you are super skinny and looking for a weight saving from the bike. Rigid forks will be lighter, but you might appreciate a bit of bounce on on the flat cobble sections.
I've done the three marked Tour of Flanders loops from Oudenarde on a lightweight road bike, just with slightly heavier wheels and 28mm tubeless at 60psi. Perfectly fine but quite bumpy.
If you go the the Parkwood, consider some barends for varied and potentially slightly more aero positions.
I'm really not worried about the PArkwood in that context, me and it have been very long term friends and i've done 2 hours, 4 hours and even 6-8 hour days on it without issue... I've done XC rides, sportives and everything inbetween. So comfort and riding position i'm totally good with. If i could increase it's speed easily though, that could give me a bit 'more'.
Of course i could just keep the CX bike until March, not use it at all until then and accept a certain level of discomfort on the day... but ideally i'd like to train on the bike i'm going to use for the event.
Can you not just put some big risers on the cross bike?
Failing that, carbon rigid forks and narrow slick tyres.
Why do you need to be “faster” and how much faster would you need to be?
I guess to take advantage of any assistance from drafting etc would be the logical answer to that. In theory i'm stronger on the road that my riding buddy, so him being on a road bike and me on a less appropriate bike should even itself out. But if i can make myself/it a bit faster for a limited outlay, i can't think of any reason not to do so.
Aero-helmets, rad stickers and long farts
If you're sure you can't change your body position, just put the fastest rolling tyres you can find on it. Tubeless Schwalbe Big Ones perhaps? Pumped up to whatever you think your rims will tolerate (45-50psi)
(don't go tubeless road, the tolerances are much tighter and you don't want to risk a tyre blowing off the rim.)
You could go aero helmet and stuff, but that would look a bit silly on a flat bar bike. Don't bother with baggies though.
As people have said, is there anything you can do to adjust the position on the CX bike? Could it be in part getting used to that position, and riding road involving a lot less movement on the bike?
As people have said, is there anything you can do to adjust the position on the CX bike? Could it be in part getting used to that position, and riding road involving a lot less movement on the bike?
Potentially yes.... But whether i'm prepared to put in that level of time, effort and discomfort along with the pain etc, i'm far from convinced.
When actually riding the CX i was getting no discomfort at all.. (Outdoors anyway.)
Indoors on Zwift my shoulders and back of the neck were struggling within about 5 mins.
There's adjustment within the bike of course, stem spacers, bar/hood angles... but as i say... i'm not feeling a massive desire to throw tonnes of effort at it.
You're going to be in a much less aerodynamic position.
So just embrace the slowness.
I'd say gearing is a big difference too. I had a mtb that I converted to a commuter bike and later became my zwift bike. fitting a 48t big ring made the biggest difference to my ave speed.
Id get a propper bike fit for the cross bike.
With the best will in the world 'flat' bars are not the most comfortable option for long distances. And the usual advice of more sweep and higher bars (or even jones) is not conducive to speed on the road!
And while you can find ways to move arround on them its not the same as being able to alternate tucking down in the drops, cruise on the hoods etc to give your palms a break.
i could just keep the CX bike until March, not use it at all until then and accept a certain level of discomfort on the day
A terrible idea IMHO. There's no way I would ride I bike at Flanders that I didn't feel comfortable and confident on. I wouldn't ride a bike I wasn't comfortable on at all. I'd either sort it out or sell it on.
But lets not get hung up on that for now, that’s not changing…. the bike is.
I think it's the key. Changing components won't make much difference, IMO. Position on a road bike is everything. If you've changed it once and it hurt, change it again. Road bike fit is tremendously complicated. I've got a set of bars and stems in the garage which I've tried in loads of combinations. I've settled on a position now which is different from positions I've 'settled' on in the past. And even when a particular bar/stem combo is fitted there are endless variations besides stem spacers: rotation of bars and position of hoods on the curve are all important. It takes a long time to understand what works for you and what doesn't. It all changed again when I went to a wider bar - my originals were too narrow.
Fortunately the bargain bin stuff on CRC/PX and even in good road-orientated LBSes on means you can get a bar for a tenner and a stem for a fiver so it's easy to change. Just get good at wrapping bar tape 🙂
On tarmac, it's all about reducing aero drag as much as you can, for a level of discomfort you are prepared to tolerate... Turning more of your power output into greater speed.
Clothing
Reducing your frontal area
Aero rim, especially front
Narrow tyre, especially front
Water bottle position
Etc.
If you aren't used to regular riding road bikes for hours, I'd set up the Merida as relaxed as possible to begin with and with a saddle you know is comfy for multi hour rides. Then very slowly see if you can drop the front end.
I bet there's a really boring video from GCN on this very topic on youtube somewhere...
Ooh, look, there's loads
https://www.youtube.com/user/globalcyclingnetwork/search?query=make+bike+faster
Buy some £15 tri bars for your mtb. Job jobbed!
Clothing is a good call. You'll likely get more speed advantage from wearing a close fitting jersey and shorts than you will from switching around forks or wheels.
A friend of mine did some wind tunnel testing recently and saved 3 Watts by taking his mitts off, so you can imagine what difference a baggy shirt and shorts makes.
Hmmm, the title and the actual question don't really tally do they?
What makes a bike on the roads ‘fast’ ?
Isn't really what you're asking is it, what you really seem to want OP is to make an MTB comfortable/efficient for road riding...
In which case I'd echo others suggestions, ~28c road slicks and maybe bar ends to mix up the hand positions and some rigid forks if you can as lugging about suspension isn't really going to benefit you...
But honestly I'd look at making changes to the CX bike to improve comfort if you can, it's already a more efficient road machine by default it clearly just needs adjusting to suit you better. What exactly hurts when out riding? have you considered paying for a professional to do a bike fit?
Have you considered wearing full pro kit?
What exactly hurts when out riding? have you considered paying for a professional to do a bike fit?
When out riding, absolutely nothing hurts, it's all golden.
It's indoors and 'after' where i'm having issues.
Regarding a bike fit, i'm not sure i see much point, even if i keep the bike for the event, it will be up for sale the week after. This isn't a long term thing for me, i'm an MTBer. I am doing this as it's an event / bucket list kinda thing, not because i want to be a Roadie.
Plan is looking like the Rigid forks, carbon jobbies at 500gr instead of 2200gr and a pair of WTB Cross Boss TCS - Light Fast which will save me another 600gr approx. Lastly for that weekend i'll steal the carbon bars off the T-130 for another 100gr and that's about it.
We've moved on from the CX bike now, it's already advertised and waiting on a pending offer. (Bit too low for me to accept)
Have you considered wearing full pro kit?
[img] 
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like this 🙂
a pair of WTB Cross Boss TCS – Light Fast
Not an obvious choice if going fast on the road is the requirement.
Not an obvious choice if going fast on the road is the requirement.
Well i wanted something light, these fit that at 400gr each. Something with a bit of flex/give for the Cobbles, which these give and something Tubeless ready, again which these are.
Others on the list are
Continental Speed RIDE Reflex
Panaracer Pasela ProTite Tire
If there's something else that ticks the above list though, i'm all ears...
Don’t overthink the tyres. My Rocket Ron’s at 40psi don’t slow me down on the road.
If you're on the MTB I don't think you'll keep up with the road trains between the cobbles (should you wish too), whatever you do to the bike. They really shift. On the other hand you may have a modest advantage on the cobbles. I'd be in the 'make the CX bike fit' camp - wider bars perhaps, saddle up/down/fore/aft etc.
road trains between the cobbles (should you wish too), whatever you do to the bike
I think that's going to depend how we look at it... I wouldn't keep up with a massive percentage of them no matter what bike i'm riding 🙂
On a CX/Road bike with an average ride with some hilly bits in, I can average 17-18mph.... With a bit more flat (like Belgium) i may make it to 19.... but i'm certainly not going to reach 20+ on my own on ANY bike...
13kg Spark 920
2.5 Rocket Ron’s at 40psi
£15 Amazon tri bars
Tight jersey
Aero road helmet
18.5mph for 50 miles.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1908636995
Don’t waste a load of cash fettling. Just ride your bike 😉
Tight jersey
Aero road helmet
Alarm bells there... 😉
When actually riding the CX i was getting no discomfort at all.. (Outdoors anyway.)
Indoors on Zwift my shoulders and back of the neck were struggling within about 5 mins.
I'm not following this. You must be doing something very different on your turbo if it hurts within 5 minutes, but riding outside doesn't cause any discomfort. If riding outside is OK, why are you concerned about how you feel on the turbo?
Not sure tri bars would be permitted in a sportive, particularly one like Flanders with thousands and thousands of riders on some very narrow, twisty roads.
I remember quite a few local's on 29ers and fatbikes doing it. There aren't too many long straight roads where at MTB would be most disadvantaged. You wouldn't be out of place on the Parkwood.
I have a set of ReneHerse Snoqualmie Pass 44c tyres, picked them up from Sven cycles, earlier this year. They're silly money but they're also seriously quick on the road.
You're also going to need a decent size chainring if you're running 1x. A 36 tooth at least i would have thought.
The rider makes the bike go fast.
Spend on yourself instead of shiny new kit, a bikefit for the CX bike, a decent physio and a personal trainer, improve your strength and flexibility so you can hold the position on the CX bike.
I rode there on 25mm Continental GP4000. I'd suggest looking at 28mm - GP5000 or Schwalbe Durano, Panaracer Gravelking (not the SK version).
Like most have said, different tyres and something to allow you to change hand position. Possibly even the bizarre barends inside of brakes setup. I find a lot of the aero issues on an MTB is wide bars turning your arms and torso into a parachute. Narrow that up and things improve, though obviously you're never going to achieve anything Graeme Obree-esque.
For tyres I disagree with 28mm. On most MTB rims that's going to give a bit of an odd profile. I can highly recommend Vitoria Voyager Hypers in 38mm. They roll amazingly quickly, are bombproof and very comfy. I've had them on my MTB and 'Gravel' bike in various sizes and swear by them
LOL forget the CX... it's history 🙂
I don't do anything differently inside than outside on it, bike is in exactly the same position. Promise.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=223150
I've just done this Zwift TT on the Parkwood, 20 mins power at 252w, which i'm fairly happy with, no discomfort etc. Bit tiring though.
I'm feeling a bit better about it all now thank all. I'll go relax and die for an hour.
71.5 degree head angle on a medium frame is never going to feel "fast". Weight is a thing, and nicer wheels would certainly help. Nicer tyres will transform the bike.
As would a decent fitting. Where are you?
Newbury
Aero effects are by far the biggest thing that makes for speed. So anything that makes you more aero will have the most effect. tyres etc make a differnce but its a ttiny compared with aero
Can you put narrow flatt bars on the bike you want to ride? Learn to tuck a bit? Tri bars can be put on mtb bars and that alone was worth two gears for the same effort on one of my bastardised commutters
I say this quite a lot, and I accept that it may be wrong but it worked for me. I also think you know it already:
I reckon your problem is that you have a cross bike that fits you somewhere near correctly
... but you're not a road/cross bike rider
Yet !
get/borrow a 45 degree stem (I think I might have one, depending on your bar diameter) / chock up the front wheel when you're on the turbo / maybe drop the saddle a bit 'til you start to be comfy on it and then change gradually. Keep your current stem in the garage; I bet it's about right
Stretch for a few minutes after a ride
Oh, and shave your legs, obvz 🙂
Position / geometry / gearing / weight / tyres
It'll be shit on a mtb. Do it on a road bike or go and find a cross / mtb event to do.
It’ll be shit on a mtb
Maybe in your world, in mine it will be a weekend away drinking Belgian beer and eating loads
With some biking too
Maybe in your world, in mine it will be a weekend away drinking Belgian beer and eating loads
With some biking too
Perhaps, but more likely you'll just be he one slowing down the pace of your mates who bought more appropriate bikes for the job...
I think you've already taken against curly barred bikes and made up your mind though haven't you, so it's probably better to just encourage you to pick some decent slick tyres and make, invest in a bit of padded Lycra make the other adjustments to your MTBs setup and crack on.
You'll have a grand time and that's the main thing.
Perhaps, but more likely you’ll just be he one slowing down the pace of your mates who bought more appropriate bikes for the job…
I don't believe that will be the case no. I'm not trying to sound cocky or up myself here but I've done many many thousands of miles with my mate and know our strengths and weaknesses well as riders.
As for having made up my mind, kinda yes but it's not sold yet, I'm tempted to use again tomorrow, it only takes 5 mins to swap the cassette. But I'm very much teetering on the edge, if it sells I won't be upset. I felt a lot happier this afternoon on the Parkwood
I'm gonna second the "if it's fine outside, ride it outside and forget about the turbo trainer" comment.
But also caution that going fast with aero does assume you have fast rolling tyres - you could be wasting at least 20W and maybe considerably more at modest road speeds if you're running something draggy. Light probably equals fast rolling but not necessarily. I'm sure in a bunch you'd be more than capable of going >20mph, provided you're not too hindered by your tires. Then within limits aero doesn't matter
I was going to mention last week it seems odd someone who hates road bikes to be considering road rides. If you want to be happy doing these long road rides you need to do some long road rides.
Well come on over and we can fix this fit issue. And you can try some decent tyres 😉
Seriously the TiRed Stem collection just keeps growing... PM me - I'm pretty local and very cheap (aka free).
Work on your bike position, core strength and get the miles in on your CX bike - riding cobbles at speed means rolling a big gear and driving from your quads / core. MTB tyres and suspension forks is adding weight and absorbing energy. Flat bars for 6 hours plus is going to get uncomfortable, upright position and wide bars aren't going to be good for drafting in a bunch. Double wrapped or gel bar tape plus decent gel gloves will help too - no amount of MTB riding will get you used to the high-speed vibrations from riding pave which absolutely hammers your hands and wrists
Well come on over and we can fix this fit issue. And you can try some decent tyres 😉
Thanks mate. Tyres at this stage of the discussion are so far down the list in terms of importance.
I was going to mention last week it seems odd someone who hates road bikes to be considering road rides. If you want to be happy doing these long road rides you need to do some long road rides
Whilst I'm not a fan of road bikes, I like epic trips and this trip really does tick them boxes. I was hoping I'd ride it and be fine. Whilst the speed was great, comfort was great, the after affects I'm less convinced by. These may not be impossible to resolve of course.
Ok, I've canned the auction and will give the thing some more time. See if it's something to get used to and adjust both it and myself to.
Tired, I'd still be interested in you having a look at position though please. If it's something glaringly obvious that would be very useful
Even if they don’t allow Tri bars for the event, I highly recommend them for steady state turbo work. It somehow makes keeping a (relatively) good position much easier indoors and gives you loads of extra positions to counteract the lack of bike movement.
Before I had a road bike, I had a second set of wheels to commute on my Inbred 26er. These had City Jet 1.5s on and were much faster than commuting with knobblies.
They were also quieter and felt better on the road.
Body position was a real killer as well in terms of drag, but I wasn't gonna fiddle about with that, as it was my MTB used for commuting, not the other way round.
A few years ago I did a couple of road sportives for charity on my 26" MTB, 75 miles one year, then the 100 mile option the next. Had slicks the first year, and semi-slicks the 2nd. I think I probably slightly regretted not putting the slicks back on for the 100 miles. Around that time I was also running gearing orientated for speed on the roads for commuting purposes - a Deore triple 48-36-26 x 11-28. There was some suffering of course, but mostly enjoyed the 100 miles!
A quick look on CRC I'd go for something cheap like Schwalbe Hurricane Performance Tyre if doing something similar again. If you're limited to 1x then have a look on ali-express for a cheap 38t narrow-wide 1x chainring.
Good luck!
Have a look at the specialized roubaix pro in 33mm they are really quick wide enough for your mtb rims and tubless , ive put them on a cx bike to use on the road but like you cant get on with the position the toe overlap frightens me and those silly narrow bars are just so unstable ...... but the thing flies along but only 1 maybe 2mph faster than the mtb with the same tires on
I find a lot of the aero issues on an MTB is wide bars turning your arms and torso into a parachute.
Back in the day when me and my riding mates hit a long road stretch we would drop down to rest our hands on the top of the fork legs to get an aero tuck. Just hope you don't have to brake suddenly. Did anyone else do this?
Back in the day when me and my riding mates hit a long road stretch we would drop down to rest our hands on the top of the fork legs to get an aero tuck. Just hope you don’t have to brake suddenly
I still do this, BITD I topped 51mph down Ditchling Beacon on a London to Brighton BHF charity ride on my rigid MTB, fitted with 25mm slicks. I had flipped and slammed the stem for -10degrees to get lower and more aero. , but was still massively un-aero compared to the roadies.
Maybe I’ll just chip in here, my wife has the same bike, and she didn’t find it comfy until she had replaced the layback post with an inline one.
Anything that’s vaguely road bike ish will piss all over an mtb, if the budget is similar.
Body position mostly, then aero, then weight.
Imho.
Im talking in a road context there ^^^ obviously if you’re heading to BPW it would be different.
Lol I'm not even convinced with gravel paths, bpw is not an option for this bike
Back in the day when me and my riding mates hit a long road stretch we would drop down to rest our hands on the top of the fork legs to get an aero tuck. Just hope you don’t have to brake suddenly. Did anyone else do this?
Yup. These days I rest my elbows on the handlebars