Been involved in quite a nasty incident today which has seen a riding mate flown off from the scene in air ambulance to Selly Oak hospital (30-odd miles away which took them 12 minutes!!).
It happened on the road bit on the way to the technical bit of a route which we do most weeks and sometimes go flat out down in the dark, just lost it on a pothole and went end over end for about 30 feet along the tarmac. Was out cold for about 5-10 minutes and now is in hospital with a fractured skull and bust arm. He was wearing a specialized D2 helmet which is one of the best, that is now in bits, dread to think what would have happened if he wasn't wearing it.
Paremedic turned up reasonably quick but the air ambulance took a while to find our location despite constant communicattion via mobile phone with the control, top tip is to take something bright to wave about to attract the attention of the spotter.
Not a good day really but could have been much worse but for the helmet, air ambulance and luck. Get well soon Dennis
Glad to hear your friend is OK-ish! Saw plenty of kids out riding at Cannock Chase today...without helmets 😡
Hope your friend recovers.
We had a demo day and some guys turned up without helmets and then were a bit pi$$ed off when they couldn't join the test ride which takes in a rather quick downhill bridleway,,, i dispair for some people 🙄
I don't ride without one, I can't see why people don't.
hope your pals better soon!
Hope he gets well soon. I'd agree, if you don't value you head, don't bother with a helmet.
Get well soon Dennis. Hope the recovery is quick.
There's no need to wear a helmet if you're not planning to have an accident...
That's what I used to tell my lads. Took them a while to catch on. 🙄
I never leave home without mine. Even feels wrong if I nip over to the post office without it. However, I'm pro choice. We do tend to mollycoddle people rather than letting Darwin do his thing!
A dozen or so serious head injuries a year to non helmeted bikers. Millions of miles cycled. You work out the odds
A dozen or so serious head injuries a year to non helmeted bikers. Millions of miles cycled. You work out the odds
What've the odds got to do with it? These 'odds' you like so much wouldn't have been improved for markenduro's mate if he'd not been wearing a helment now, would they?
Who knows what would have happened if he had not been wearing a helmet? Helmet in bits means the helmet failed.
No, helmet in bits means that it absorbed much of the energy from the impact...
Isn't that the way helmets work??? They absorb some of the impact, and break doing so. Which means your head doesn't break (as much).
i dont wear a lid when im at the skate parks but when im riding xc then i always wear one but can see why some people dont!!
Saw a lad at fairholmes today on a yellow gemini with yellow wheels, all the gear and then a woolly hat!!
HTF will a wooley hat help if you crash you 8" full bouncer?? made of kevlar mebe? TBF riding a yellow bike with yellow wheels my chosen head gear would have been a balaclava!!
Really? I think it would be fair to assume that he wouldn't be any better off.
Helmet in bit doesn't mean the helmet failed to do it's job, just that the forces applied to it eventually overloaded the helmets capacity to absorb them. The helmet will still have reduced the force to his head. In the same way that if your fork bottoms out it hasn't failed, just been overloaded.
TJ, you make no sense this time.
The helmet should have crushed. Without seeing it its hard to say but normally a helmet that is in bits has failed. It should remain in one piece but crushed / cracked. I would say the very fact he got a fractured skull shows the helmet failed given the type of crash
Amen - I will not ride with anyone who wont wear one.
TJ, I think you are wrong this time. Both times I've hit my head hard in an off, the helmet has shattered, only staying together with the internal harness. Both times I got up, checked myself over and rode on. Hitting the ground that hard with my head, with no ill effect, means the helmet did a pretty good job IMHO.
BaldyS you rode on after a bump on the head and a shattered helmet!! Shame on you
[i]Amen - I will not ride with anyone who wont wear one. [/i]
personally I always wear one, but I'd never ride with anyone who had that attitude.
A helmet is a fragile piece of equipment. On seeing a damaged one, it is easy to assume that a serious injury has been prevented. Cycle helmets split very readily, and often at forces much lower than those that would lead to serious head injury. Helmets work by absorbing impact energy through the crushing of an expanded polystyrene liner. Once compressed the liner stays compressed. It does not bounce back to its original form like reusable helmets for some other activities. [b]If a helmet splits before the liner has partially or fully compressed - and this is often the case - then it has simply failed.[/b] It will not have provided the designed protection and may in fact have absorbed very little energy at all.
If a helmet splits after fully compressing, it will have reduced initial forces to the head, but thereafter it will afford no further protection and any residual energy will be transmitted to the brain. Cycle helmets fail catastrophically, not gradually, so it is a mistake to believe that they provide useful, if reduced, protection at higher velocities. In high impact crashes, such as most that involve motor vehicles or fixed vertical objects like concrete barriers and lamp posts, the forces are so great that a helmet will compress and break in around 1/1000th of a second. The absorption of the initial forces during this very short period of time is unlikely to make a significant difference to the likelihood of serious injury or death.
Helmets provide some protection when there is only partial compression of the liner and they may work better if in addition there is no split or breakage. This is most likely to be the case in crashes that result from low-speed falls without any third party involvement and where, without a helmet, injury would be relatively minor. If the liner suffered no compression, the helmet almost certainly played no role in preventing injury and without the helmet there would have been no injury of consequence anyway.
From cyclehelmets.org - and anti helmet [b]compulsion[/b] site that pulls together a lot of good research.
Just a thought, but if markenduros mate (hope he gest well quickly) wnet "end over end" and the both the helmet and his skull broke during this, then isnt it possible that while the helmet might have had some benefit in the initial impact, on subsequent impacts it was of no use (broken) leading to the fractured skull?
Stoner - quite possible. as are many other interpretations.
Oh - forgot to say - get well soon.
Just had an update, operating today on arm, has concussion and fractured skull plus other cuts, grazes and bumps and similar effect to whipash. Crash was at least 25 mph and he bounced about 30feet on the tarmac. Helmet was held together by outer shell but cracked inside on right hand side where fracture is. It functioned as designed. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that had he not been wearing it we would now be arranging a funeral. By all means have the choice to wear one or not, i know what my choice is and it's a no brainer. Paramedics did a great job, well impressed by how cool, professional and caring they were. I can't begin to tell how scary it is and how helpless you feel to see your mate unconscious on the floor and not know much first aid, think i will be looking into doing a course after this.
Here's to a speedy recovery for him.
TJ trying to be contraversal on a helmet thread, change the f%#&ing record.
The fact the helmet is in pieces means it did exactly what its supposed to do.
Markenduro - I hope your friend recovers fully, 'tis a shame though when the ever predictable TJ appears on a helmet thread spreading the same old tripe. Perhaps his brain really isn't worth saving.
Go on TJ, do the "pedestrians should wear helmets thing", its brilliant that arguement.
Oh and Stoner, better he was killed in the initial (harder) impact eh?
Hope your mate gets better soon.
meanwhile
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Bruneep - Its unfortunate that these threads even turn into PUAC threads.
Hopefully those riders who dismiss the benefits of wearing a helmet or try to find some pathetic anchor on which to downplay their effectiveness are carriers of Organ Donor cards, though methinks folk who would rather risk a serious head injury from a relatively minor bump for lack of a cheap piece of protection probably don't care enough to carry such cards.
Sooty and jim - I am not trying to be controversial for the sake of it but trying to introduce some realism and trying to do is show the fallacy that helmets provide full protection.
It is quite possible that in this case the helmet failed as the rider got a fractured skull and the helmet was split.
TandemJeremy I've read the stats as well. Its hard to find a population study that supports helmet wearing. I'm enough of a scientist to understand the popultion stuff. It's worth bearing in mind that most studies are about cycling in general not off road cycling. The worry being that on a road a helmet may bring cars closer But...
You're long piece about helmets not working at high speed was from an anti helmet website. Hmm not exactly a neutral source.
Stats asside I think a helmet saved my life. I bought a helmet because you had to have one for an XC race. I was leaving the house to ride on easy off road paths to my girl friends flat wen I saw my helmet and thought that will be useful in the morning, in traffic, so I'll wear it to carry it.
My memory is riding fairly fast on the trail then....
Walking round carrying a bike on my shoulder with the forks hanging loose, they had sheared off in the lower head set race. I was lost looking for a phone box.When I found one it took ages to remember any phone numbers. I lost about an hour we think.
The front of my helmet was crushed and the ends of the bar ends muddy. No other marks any where so it looks like I ploughed in head first. Did I lie unconcious for seconds or minutes or not at all. I've know idea.
So IMHO
The cost of wearing the helmet is low, the potential benefits high
Don't think you can guess when you need them
If you ride an Overbury's Pioneer do that check they remembered the reinforcing sleeve where they braze the steerer tube into the crown
Happy ridding
No one has said helmets provide full protection.
Yes the helmet failed (as designed) and in doing so reduced the force of the impact. This is how crumple zones work too.
Go on TJ - at least acknowledge that the helmet may have prevented a more serious injury
Uplink - it may have done, it may have made little difference it may have made it worse. The probability is the helmet reduced the impact but by a minimal amount as it did not function as designed and the impact was outside its design parameters
All 3 permutations are possible and nothing can be extrapolated from a single incedent.
Sooty and jim - it is designed to crush not break. Breaking into pieces is a sign the helmet failed - it depends on whether it failed before crushing or after crushing whether it did any good or not.,
A helmet that breaks into pieces is a helmet that has failed
I have to admit I am pro choice when it comes to Lids if you dont want to then dont, its a bit like smoking its your choice if you do or not (however smoking does affect others in a way not wearing a lid does not But you get my point?)
However I wont leave the house with out putting one on infact it feels really odd with out wearing one it's a habit for me. I have no assumption that wearing one will save me in all situations but it will/ has in some and I'll play the odds thanks and keep wearing one, as will my two kids once they are big enough to start riding. To be frank I think people not wearing one esp when trail riding are plain daft. But thats there choice.
Hope he's alright - where were you riding?
[b]A helmet that breaks into pieces is a helmet that has failed[/b]
But if the shell compressed, then surely that's a sign that some impact has been absorbed, thus the helmet DID do its job prior or breaking? Sure, if you've no lid then you've no lid to break ("fail" as you put it). Your head, however...
Mine broke up on the one and only big head/tarmac crash I've ever had, shame about the rest of me.
Sent a thankyou to Bell, basically they said the lid would gradually break up on impact/s which was good enough for me.
Wearing the old hairnet style ones back in the seventies cost me five teeth in quite small crashes.
I hope Dennis is doing well and hope he makes a speedy and full recovery!
My mate had a similar accident the day after he bought a helmet when on holiday in Chamonix ten yaers ago. He wasn't seriously hurt however, but the rock he landed on was embedded in the helmet. If he hadn't decided the buy the helmet the day before i'm sure he would have died of a nasty injury!
In this thread i've read a load of in depth stuff about foam compressing and that if the forces for which a helmet is designed to withstand are exceeded, then it will fail thus giving no protection at all. What about point loading then? Point loading without a helmet means a fractured skull. With a helmet you are giving yourself a vastly better chance, even if the helmet gives out, it's still done it's job!
The arguments posed against wearing a helmet in this thread are completely ridiculous and the people making these comments damn well know it!
Message to all those who think a helmet is pointless: GET A HELMET AND [u]ALWAYS[/u] WEAR IT!!
sponge bob - when the actual evidence is scarce that they do much good and that there are known downsides?
You should be putting your efforts and angst into pushing helmet manufacturers to improve their designs, on the testers to improve the testing and on the researchers to improve the research.
I have never said a helmet is pointless, just that they are badly flawed as shown by research from the TRL and that they provide far less protection than many think and that there is good evidence that in some circumstances they can make injuries worse. I wear one when its appropriate based on a real understanding of risk. I am prepared to accept a risk level of millions to one.
The odds on having an accident where a helmet will save you from serious injury are very low. Millions to one.
and that they provide far less protection than many think
Well I think they provide more protection than not wearing one
Educate me - what do the aforementioned 'many' think?
[b]The odds on having an accident where a helmet will save you from serious injury are very low. Millions to one.[/b]
Really? If that's the case I'm off to buy a long-overdue lottery ticket, given a lid did just that (well, replace "serious injury" with "death", but let's not be picky here. Consultants tend not to mince their words.) many moons ago. Expect a "Which new bike?" thread soon, folks!
Smashed my Xen on Thursday night, hate to think how I'd be feeling now if I'd not been wearing it!
Jesus didn't wear a helmet.
Or the prophet Muhammad.
That's all i'm saying on the matter.
Wearing a helmet gives your more confidence. More confidence = better riding = less chance of an accident. Play the odds. If you are going to be cycling seriously, then take it seriously.
I dont really know anything about the design of helmets and how much actual protection they offer in a big crash, but I have experience of a similar accident in Greece. I had taken my helmet off for a big climb (road riding) and forgot (or neglected to) put it back on at the summit. I lost it at about 40mph on the descent and hit the road pretty hard. I will never forget the sound and feeling of my head hitting the tarmac. Regardless of the actual level protection offered by a helemt, it gives you a couple of inches between your head and whatever it is that you are unfortunate enough to be headbutting. That must be a good thing, however you look at it.
Also, where else would you mount your helmet cam? Assuming we all agree that handlebar footage is rubbish!
I really hope your pal is okay and makes a speedy recovery.
Given that many helmet manufacturers are American and given the high levels of litigation in the US I think there it's a safe assumption that helmets a) do a reasonable job in many cases and b) don't actually cause injury.
I've had one serious off, thankfully at fairly low speed, but from the marks I found on my helmet afterwards I was glad I had it between the ground and my skull. My son was also pleased he was wearing one when he was around ten and trying to pull wheelies on the drive. He looped it in the end, winded himself and banged his head on the deck. Again he was pleased to have a helmet on. Nuff said.
Markenduro - best wishes to your mate, sounds like you did him proud just to be with him and get him help!
Tandem, why not wear a motorbike helmet? do they offer more protection?
Me- I'll stick to me Giro
I got hit by a car last year I was wearing my helmet. which saved a nasty injury. My head went through the windscreen as I had my lid on no injury at all to my head. The helmet is cracked in half and scuffed from glass. i never understand thise that spend thousand on a bike and cant be botherd with a lid trees and ground are harder than skin and bone when hit with force. keep your head wear a lid.
Dair - actually wearing a helmet [b]may [/b]increase your risk of accident - risk compensation. You feel more confident so you go faster and higher. Well known psycological phenomenon - although according to folk on here it does not apply to cyclists. Try riding without a helmet and you will be more cautious.
Old grump - have a look into the helmets testing standards. Serious questions have been asked about the rotational forces aspect where cycle helmets come off very badly, sizing of helmets and retention systems. Read some research - you assumption is common but not at all reasonable IMO. Plenty of evidence of helmets causing injury. Diffuse axon injury or broken necks from rotational impacts is one. The other main oine is because the head is bigger when wearing a helmet it is more likely to hit things.
S'okay - I'm a pin head, so even with a helmet on doesn't catch on too much....
Oaky, from the other side of the "discussing" does anyone think they would suffer more significant injuries if they DID wear a helmet?
Try riding without a helmet and you will be more cautious.
...and more anxious..less relaxed...more likely to have an accident? The type of accidents that you might have due to this are the ones where you are not likely to be seriously injured.
TJ just a quick question.
If you knew a housebrick was going to fall on your head from 6 feet above, would you feel safer with or without a helmet?
Tonto - the answer is mu - unask the question! The answer is not to be under the falling housebrick.
Think I'll take a lie down. Just not sure now whether it should be with or without a helmet 🙁
If you ride a bike you must be prepared for the house brick 🙂
I think helmet wearing should be personal choice, we don't ban people from being fat or drinking excessively, and these are essentially increase our risk of death. This said several years ago I was hit by a car riding into work, alongside brokens wrists/ ankle and popped shoulders and knee, my head hit the curb stone with enough force to cause me swelling of my brain. The helmet did it's job fine, absorbed as much of the impact as it could, and having seen a bit of head trauma working A&E for 16 years I am pretty sure I would have been dead without the helmet. Whilst there are a variety of different ways I could have been killed that a helmet would not have saved me from, a helmet can save your life, so my choice is wear one.
Haze - MemberSmashed my Xen on Thursday night, hate to think how I'd be feeling now if I'd not been wearing it!
W'happen Daz?
i've had three major crashes where wearing a helmet has saved my life at least once and saved me from serious injury if not death on the others.
1. flipped straight over bars by totally c#cking up a drop on the Mary Townley Loop ,landed head first into some boulders splitting a Giro Zen - wasn't sure who I or where I was for about an hour after (but carried on riding -thanks Dave!!!) when I took the helmet back the shop accused me of smashing it with a sledge hammer
2. hit side ways on by a Volvo that not only knocked me over, but proceeded to drive over the top of me - much happier to have it drive over my helmet than my actual head.
3. head first into the back of a camper van (he reversed out of a concealed entrance) - suspected brocken neck, paralysed from waist down for 2 days , fortunately neck not brocken but some damage done to spine. Neuro-surgeon was quite clear that the Etto helmet, although in bits, had done what it was designed to do and judging by the damage done to the van (with my head) and state of helmet; without it I would not be here. I'd just found out I was gonna be a dad for the second time the day before - so without that cabbage style hat my wife could well have been left to bring up two very young boys on her own.
NO HELMET NO RIDE ! Unless of course you're one of those people with relly thick skulls 😉
stAn-Bad Brains MBC
Unfortunately you simply cannot extrapolate like that. You simply have no way of knowing what would have happened had you not had the helmet on. Basic science.
1) fair enough - the helmet may have saved you from a more serious injury
2) The helmet does not have the rigidity to hold a cars weight off your head - they are not rigid.
3) - the spinal damage you received may well have been exacerbated by the helmet. This is one of the major drawbacks with helmets - swapping brain injury for spinal injury and all unquantifiable
My interpretation is no more or less valid than yours - you simply cannot say what would have happened without a helmet.
Really? If that's the case I'm off to buy a long-overdue lottery ticket, given a lid did just that
Good call. >100 lottery winners every year. In 1992 (before any significant helmet use) <100 cyclist deaths due to head injuries. Of course you should also consider that the number of cyclist deaths due to head injuries hasn't decreased significantly since then. So I'd suggest your chance of winning the lottery is far higher than your chance of a bike helmet preventing you being killed.
The thing to look for isn't deaths, it's the number of serious head injuries. IIRC when motorcycle helmets were made compulsory, the number of serious head injuries shot up, because riders were fracturing their skulls rather than dying, so the helmets were doing their job.
Tom - the gully behind Wordsley church, where Paul had one of his many punctures (!), clipped the bollard bottom of the hill.
Span me 'round and I smashed the back of my head on the pavement - helmet's a write off, ribs are painful - head and bike ok though! 😛
fram aracar
Good call. >100 lottery winners every year. In 1992 (before any significant helmet use) <100 cyclist deaths due to head injuries. Of course you should also consider that the number of cyclist deaths due to head injuries hasn't decreased significantly since then. So I'd suggest your chance of winning the lottery is far higher than your chance of a bike helmet preventing you being killed.Hmm thats really scientific. I mean no other variable changed in that time frame. More Mountain biking, more cars on the road, cars going faster, cars that make you feel safer as a driver
Secondly this 1 in a million thing is looking douptful. Lets assume that people who haven't been saved by a helmet ignore this thread. It would still about 3,000,000,000 people to have viewed this thread to come up with the stories so far. Or do helmets save 1 in a miilion of the whole population, most of whome don't cycle
secondly I'm not sure of the downsides of a helmet off road. I know about risk compensation but that gives an element of choice
Lastly how do helmets increase the risk of other injuries. Please explain the mechanism for this
My understanding was that many more motor cyclist now have an increased prevelance of shoulder nerve damage but only because they survived crashes that would have killed them without a helmet.
I've had two crashes and thank gawd I was wearing a helmet.
Came off and banged side of head around ear area. I really did see stars, just like a cartoon. Cracked helmet.
Another, front wheel dug in somewhere on a trail and I went down. Only to get the bike swing over and the cassette etc. smashed into back of my head. Only a trashed helmet THANKFULLY 🙂
I don't give a shit if people don't want to wear one, but I'm am for sure.
I think my helmet did help when i headbutted a dry stone wall at surprise view,after coming off my road ibke doing about 25 mph. It did crack and i did have concussion for two and a half weeks,but considering how lumpy the wall i headbutted is,i think it probably stopped a lot of force from being concentrated on one part of my skull,which would have been a bad thing to have happened to it.
Heeling vibes to Dennis tell him though that rigid ss are for the beardy weirdy types. 😕
I just can't understand TJ's viewpoint at all. I've been biking 2 years and written off 2 helmets in that time. I probably wouldn't have died in either case but I know the helmets prevented serious damage to my skull. Is there actually anybody who has come out of a crash saying I wish I had not been wearing a helmet?
Does anyone know how the guy that crashed on spooky woods at Glentress today is? He had a really bad head injury, some bad cuts and was semi-concious but not responsive when I came across him a few minutes after the crash. He was wearing a helmet and I think it would have been much worse if he hadn't been.
On another note I've destroyed a helmet in a crash but came out relatively unscathed. If I didn't have that helmet on it would have been my head taking the impact that destroyed my helmet and I wouldn't have come out unhurt. You can bullshit all you want about lottery and chances of injury but just look at Natasha Richardson- it doesn't take that much of a head injury to cause serious damage so I'd rather not take the chance for the sake of not wearing a helmet. Perhaps the reason that there aren't that many biking deaths due to head injuries is that about 95% (maybe more) of the people I see at trail centres wear helmets.
ampthill - you do not know how many people have been saved by a helmet as you simply cannot state what would have happened without the helmet.
I took the one in a million chance as an example - but its the right area of magnitude. a very small ( a dozen or so) cyclist die each year from head injuries and only some of those would have been saved by helmets.
Mechanism for helmets causing injuries. There are two - firstly the helmet increases the volume and weight of the head making it more likely to hit something. Obviously something that is larger has more chance of a random impact.
Secondly rotation - experimentally it has been shown that in oblique impacts helmets give a rotational force to the head that is much less without a helmet - two factors - the greater diameter of the helmet and friction between the helmet and obstacle. This causes two sorts of injury - spinal injuries and what is known as a diffuse axon injury - similar to shaken baby syndrome. Without a helmet this oblique impact imparts less rotational force ( theoretically) as the scalp slides over the skull reducing the rotational acceleration. When tested cycle helmets come out very badly for rotational impacts - worse than many other sports helmets.
As for motorcycle helmets - there was not much decrease in injury as most motorcyclist were wearing helmets before compulsion and a reduction in deaths was accompanied by an increase in injuries which it is difficult to say what the cause was - more folk surviving or more getting hurt.
Devs - I have been biking for 40 yrs and have never hit my head. If you hit your helmeted head and have no injury it is very likely that you would have had a very minor injury without it - that is the magnitude of the foirces involved.
I'll just say it once more for the record - I do wear a helmet at some times - when a rational risk assessment says it is merited. I don't when the odds are very low.
There are two points that get confused here
1) cycling is safes and when cycling in a safe manner (
traffic / jump / rock free) I want the freedom to not wear a helmet
2) helmets are distinctly flawed in design and testing and provide far less protection than many folk seem to think and in some rare circumstances can cause or exacerbate injury
hope your mate gets well soon and im glad he was wearing a helmet.
What knottie says... Glads to read that it took TJ 4 post to give is best recovery to your mate...
TandemJeremy thanks for your reply. I wasn't aware of the rotation research
So I did some reasearch.
My conclusion is that
1. Most (or all) of the research doesn't look at off road cycling
2. The anti helmet compulsion lobby are probably doing much harm by sugesting that helmets aren't a good idea
I'm not in favour of making helmets compulsory but I really don't like the idea of promoting the "you may as well not bother with a helmet" argument when I'm not sure that there is much evidence (any) evidene about helmet use off road
Refusal to wear a helmet = Darwinism in action 😉
I'll just say it once more for the record - I do wear a helmet at some times - when a rational risk assessment says it is merited. I don't when the odds are very low.
Thats priceless.
I'll repeat
Using that logic I wouldn't have been wearing a helmet during an impact bad enough to wipe my memory, during which the helmet performed as designedcompressing to reduce the force
Off road how do you benefit by not wearing a helmet?
ampthjill = absolutely true that very little research is done into offroad biking.
I agree with you about the " might as well not bother" argument. Totally fallacious.
My argument is simply that [b][i]some[/b][/i] of the riding I do is so low risk that I am prepared to accept that risk of millions to one of getting a head injury preventable by a helmet.
It is simply more pleasant not to wear a helmet.
Hope he's ok.
Let the idiots ride without helmets and see what happens.
Forget seat belts too.
My helmet has saved me many times!
I think (actually I'm pretty sure) that helmets are more popular with serious recreational MTBers and road riders than with leisure cyclists.
Therefore most bikers who don't wear helmets are probably travelling at much lower speed, on much easier terrain.
If helmets were banned overnight, I find it very difficult to imagine anything other than a sharp increase in death and serious head injuries.