[Closed] Warning!! old school moan about the Olympic Xc

I wonder what Emily thinks about all this.

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Whats the point of having some fast/slow people in open and some fast/slow people in masters.

Becuase more fast people can win that way?

I agree with you FWIW, always found the profusion of categories a deterrant to racing XC.

What is fun to ride and what is fun to race differ dramatically IMO, I personally don't want a really techy, narrow course with long laps for racing or watching. I want short laps with opportunity for passing, which I think is why the Olympics worked well (seems to have been well received outside of STW circles...) As for the tech nature, the more "gnar" the slower the average speeds and the closer it is to a running speed so the more people getting off for a bit of a jog. You must have all experienced the narrow climb at the start of a race whereby the whole field is held up by one person getting off. A few “do or die” style lines to allow passing would be grand though, in a similar vein to the corner in the Olympics where all the riders went left round the berm and a few took a straighter line and hopped the rocks.

I think aligning it with the road and track systems is a great idea and I think lots of people who already race road could be tempted over. I'd like to see races split into 3/4's or E123's etc so you don't have the problem of only 15 people in Elite. And to make up for the lack of prizes maybe a climbing competition or sprint primes which would be easy to do with timing chips.

Edit: I don't think looking to 4X, BMX, DH etc will yield top level XC racers (let BC nick them for the track...), I think looking to road and track will.

Iain

But I think alot of the problems here lie with the categories

Yeah, the categories are a disaster. But then you are back onto compulsory licensing, aren't you?

I think the sort of people who are represented here (Juan for example) are not what the sport needs, I suspect if all races were designed to his spec we'd see numbers plummet, and certainly not entice new riders.

I did XC eliminator at BBB - it was fantastic!

I did too, so maybe we even bump into each other. Actually I liked it, but I think people who "walk/pushed" on the bunny hop section should have had some penalties.
And to be fair the XC race at the BBB around a loop around a field. A long funny one, but a loop around a field nonetheless.

But if you want technical skill to rule entirely over fitness surely you race DH or enduro?

Well first you're missing the point. I don't want XC races to be CX races. You should read jenn's article about her trip to France. An XC race can be very demanding physically, but can and IMHO should be hard enough technically so that it still is MOUNTAIN bike. The problem here lies in the fact that most XC racers on here have no experience outside the gorrick series level of technicality. I have seen that on my first race in the UK. And to be honest with you njee, I am not sure your typical XC racer is fit enough to sustain a whole enduro (as you admitted yourself).

I got a decent results (by my standards) because alot of good riders behind were trapped.

That's racing, if they were that decent they should have been at the front 🙂

How does what the UCI want prohibit changing the format in the UK to attract more/better riders?

Because, like I said, this thread started as a moan that the UK doesn't have any decent XC racers on the world stage. There are myriad reasons for this, but it's an absolute fact that if we had more UCI races we'd have had 2 riders yesterday, which is a start.

If you start a new version of the sport to encourage people in, then say "right, now we've got you hooked try this, it's what we really need you to do" that's less productive than trying to nurture what we already have. It'll also mean that we don't get so many foreign guys coming over for the few UCI ranked races we do have etc etc.

I'm not talking about encouraging people in full stop or at a grass roots level, I'm talking about success on a global level. I think it's two separate things.

And to be fair the XC race at the BBB around a loop around a field.

I only remember woody singletrack on the long XC course.

What do people think about the 'no racing on PROW' thing that means we can't make mountain marathons CRC style into actual races?

Making races longer doesn't make them more exciting. I'd not be any more inclined to enter them if they were actually competitive. Personally.

The problem here lies in the fact that most XC racers on here have no experience outside the gorrick series level of technicality

I dont think this is true, but riding more technical terrain is different from racing on it.

Also the level of race scene seems to inversely proportional to the level of technicality in an area. For instance thetford in Norfork average riding at best has quite a thriving XC race scene especially considering the small population there. Probably to make the cycling more fun !

I would nt want to race on a type of terrain that I could nt regularly practise seeing as alot of the races are likely to be in the south were is there magical technical terrain going to come from ?

I'd just like to chip in and say that CX and XC seem to be regarded as some kind of laboratory testing where the guy with the biggest VO2 max will always win. There's actually a lot of skill and technique involved in both races, despite the lack of styling it up over the table tops, and the quicker you go, the more skillful you need to be.

The top riders in both sports are not just those who do most hours on a road bike or on a turbo, they are also the best in terms of bikehandling and skill too.

I dont think this is true, but riding more technical terrain is different from racing on it.

This.
Pottering round a flat field (using that deliberately seeing as it keeps being mentioned) is not technical or interesting. Racing on a well designed/laid out course across a flat field can be brilliant. A dead turn, a narrow bit, a wide bit and 15 riders jostling for position and suddenly you've got a great race on your hands.

(Obviously you don't JUST have the flat field, I'm just using it as an example to people who think that all race courses need to be gnarr to the max).

The more technical you make it, the more people will crash or the more people will tend to bunch up as the pace goes down. Therefore the more people you'll have running cos it's faster. The clue is in the name - it's a RACE, fastest from A to B.

I think national XC races were a victim of their own success a bit. Huge fields meant the courses had to get wider and less techie, to accommodate everybody. Which lead to dumbing down.

We don't have that many XC riders at top level because the standard in Europe is so high, and it costs so much to travel to the races and gain the UCI points to get a decent start number. With 180 guys in a World Cup (are the fields still that big ? I've not looked for a while) all but the top 20 guys on the start line are just riding for better gridding next time.

In the womens it's not quite so bad, the fields are smaller and the spread of ability is wider, so can cut through the field a bit more.

I'd just like to chip in and say that CX and XC seem to be regarded as some kind of laboratory testing where the guy with the biggest VO2 max will always win. There's actually a lot of skill and technique involved in both races, despite the lack of styling it up over the table tops, and the quicker you go, the more skillful you need to be.

Totally agree with this, since I started racing XC I've got much better as picking my lines. Not so much in a DH all out technical sense but more like BMX. Weighting and un weighting the bike to allow it to roll over roots and stuff with out losing speed.

I am not sure your typical XC racer is fit enough to sustain a whole enduro (as you admitted yourself).

Did I? I don't think I ever said that, I don't think it. There's perhaps a distinction here between 'XC racers' and 'people who race XC'. The TV is not an XC race.

I'm afraid Juan I stand by my "you're adding nothing, jog on" comment.

With 180 guys in a World Cup (are the fields still that big ? I've not looked for a while) all but the top 20 guys on the start line are just riding for better gridding next time.

They are, and you're spot on! Even if they were as quick as the front runners they're 2 minutes down into the first descent!

FWIW, I really enjoyed watching them...inspired me and my lads 🙂

I don't think I ever said that, I don't think it.

In UK MTBing XC racing is defined as 90 minute ish races on short laps.

It's been mentioned more than once that XC is the most accessible form of MTB racing for newbies. I'm not totally convinced of that.

When I lived in the West Midlands there were a number of short DH tracks that you could go and practice on. Cannock Chase is the best example and while some people might scoff at the idea of DH runs in a largely flat area, Chase Trails / Racers Guild built up a good scene and selection of trails, and also unofficial races. There's also plenty of racing to be done in the Midlands and into Wales.
When I used to race ('89 to '93) my parents used to enjoy driving me around as it was a day out into the countryside. How many XC races can people get to within a two hour drive these days?

Re. equipment, you can buy a decent used DH bike for a few hundred pounds (My Giant Glory that I bought the other week cost 700 bucks....). You certainly don't NEED a DH bike at the likes of the Cannock Chase DH courses anyway. Plenty of people launch off the jumps on rigid singlespeeds...

maybe not but it needs to change to become accessible, friendly, and the natural starting point for people/ kids with an urge to compete off road on a bike

Schools, clubs, Go-Ride and cyclo cross are all actively promoting off road cycling for kids. That's happening now all over the country. Our club members give a lot of their time over to this.

Regards the difference between the techy bits of CX and XC. One place I race hosts both CX and XC. The XC version is to tricky for CX.
There was a good point made about sustainable technical courses. If something is too hard to start with, it might be borderline dangerous after an hours flat out peddling. For me techy in XC is this, and it'll sound lame to you. Loose singletrack climbs with few passing places to fight for, bombholes, rooty sections, switchbacks up or down, stairways, man made raised singletrack and things as simple as surface changes.

On the note of the age thing, I'm a grand vet and I'd prefer to race with the younger guys. Not interested in a podium place in an easier class, I'd rather be second last in the main event. Though the last XC race I did as a grand vet, but went out with everyone I came 11th overall we aren't all ready to give up yet.

How many XC races can people get to within a two hour drive these days?

About twenty, probably much more.

you did you admitted to me that the tranve is too long for you. And why is it not an XC race? The fastest from A to b wins.

It is not an XC race, an XC race is what happens on UCI circuit, at the olympics, at the world championships etc and are labeled XC. Shall we start calling the trans rockies, Iditabike, Transalp etc XC races as well?

why do you need their permission? BC have no say-so as long as you run to their rules if being insured by them. Regional committees should be coordinating/ advising not giving the "go-ahead"

Brownback, should have said we were asked to fill a gap in the CX league. That's why we had them down.

you did you admitted to me that the tranve is too long for you.

For me to be interested yes, I get bored. I've done a 12 hour solo (and finished on the podium), plus a 100 mile ride around CyB, no worries with my endurance, just don't enjoy it.

It is not an XC race, an XC race is what happens on UCI circuit, at the olympics, at the world championships etc and are labeled XC

This.

How many XC races can people get to within a two hour drive these days?

Two hours of where!? If you're in Surrey/Sussex/Kent/Hampshire/Berkshire at least 20 a year, plus midweek ones.

I really struggle to see how DH can ever be more accessible than XC for folk new to riding, as in properly new to it. People don't walk into their LBS and buy a bike which will be well suited to DH. XC you can do on anything.

Despite what is being said above, XC seems to be doing better than a few years ago. There are certainly more elites now than when I took out a license.

One of the problems at the top end of the sport is the lack of a clear route from top youth to fully fledged world cup pro. XC racing regularly loses some of its most talented riders to the Road. There's simply much more money and support on the road Plenty of top uk road racers have an extensive XC history.

One of the problems at the top end of the sport is the lack of a clear route from top youth to fully fledged world cup pro. XC racing regularly loses some of its most talented riders to the Road. There's simply much more money and support on the road Plenty of top uk road racers have an extensive XC history.

Could someone do an invitational event for top roadies to come and race xc? Some of them (the ones wiht mtb backgrounds) would surely enjoy it.

I blame MBUK magazine for promoting the baggy clothes wearing all mountain rider who's anti pedaling uphill. I remember they even had an article called "How to get the look".

🙄

Unfortunately (and why traditional XC will always suck) the races are always won on boring fireroad climbs.

Not sure I could disagree any more.

Despite what is being said above, XC seems to be doing better than a few years ago.

Totally agree, as I said a couple of pages back. I'll say it again but it does seem that the ones who want to change or think it needs to change are the ones who are least involved. I have no issues with how races are run and I've never heard any competitors at any level who have any fundamental issues with it.

Could someone do an invitational event for top roadies to come and race xc? Some of them (the ones wiht mtb backgrounds) would surely enjoy it.

They'd enjoy it for sure but they wouldn't be allowed by their teams. Most of these 'roadies' ride for professional teams and get paid a lot of money to do their jobs. To my knowledge there are only 4 or 5 full time paid enough to live on MTB pro's in this country with a handful more getting handouts and living very sparsely to live the dream. THIS is the reason most switch from MTB to the road, money talks! there's just no money in UK MTB racing.

Well hopefully that might change over the next 4 years.

There must also be an issuer regarding xc tracks, how many trail centres would be suitable for a xc race, wide enough for 30+ riders and have the ability for spectators or cameras to get into?

If you're in Surrey/Sussex/Kent/Hampshire/Berkshire at least 20 a year,

And if you're not?

If there were races local to me I'd be doing it on Saturday mornings even with a young family. As it is, they are all just too far away.

People have regularly tried to create a Welsh series but it always just dies through lack of support.

http://www.xcracer.com/UK-Mountain-Bike-Event-Diary-Planner.php

Surely kids just prefer DH over XC because of the fact it's adrenaline fuelled, skill centric, the bikes are cool, the gear is cool (I don't expect the middle aged folk on here to agree with that) and it's just a great way to spend a day with your mates.

DH is pure fun and adrenaline, which is what kids for the most part are looking for. The kids who ride XC are the sort who started reading the Telegraph when they were seven.

I enjoy riding trails out in the wilderness but for competition I would never dream of riding round and round for an hour and a half at a modest energy conserving tempo. I want all out, fast as you can test of skill and explosive fitness racing whereby the endorphins flow and the momentary joy of nailing a run is overwhelming. When I'm 50 I may reconsider but for now I'll stick with DH.

There must also be an issuer regarding xc tracks, how many trail centres would be suitable for a xc race, wide enough for 30+ riders and have the ability for spectators or cameras to get into?

Why is that an issue? Certainly there aren't many venues where it would work on TV, but I don't think a lack of venues per se is an issue. Trail centres generally make poor race venues, different set of requirements.

I would never dream of riding round and round for an hour and a half at a modest energy conserving tempo

Not done much XC racing have you? I'd say that any competition is done flat out, it's no physically easier because it takes longer. I've never seen anyone suffer from exhaustion after the 100m, but the marathon...

it's just a great way to spend a day with your mates.

You mean like going for a ride? 😕

Not done much XC racing have you?

I thought that would have been quite evident. Of course I haven't.

You mean like going for a ride?

Not done much Downhilling have you?

I've never seen anyone suffer from exhaustion after the 100m, but the marathon...

No, you really haven't done much Downhilling.

Lol.. nothing moderate about XC racing. You start off as fast as you can go, then you continue going as fast as you can go until the end. Up and down.

You train to be able to handle this 🙂

To do well you have to be absolutely flogging yourself on the downs and the singletrack, which is why good racers are good bike handlers, and also why I have riser bars on my XC race bike 🙂

Lol.. nothing moderate about XC racing. You start off as fast as you can go, then you continue going as fast as you can go until the end.

Sounds fun :?. Didn't Ed Leigh quite an average speed of 14mph at the Olympics. The endorphins are flowing just thinking about it.

No, you really haven't done much Downhilling.

I suspect he's ridden down way more hills than you, and almost certainly at a much faster overall speed! 🙂

I've never seen anyone suffer from exhaustion after the 100m, but the marathon...

No, you really haven't done much Downhilling.

Ah, that's not exhaustion you are seeing at downhill events, it's people gasping for a fag. Nicotine withdrawal can be serious.

I suspect he's ridden down way more hills than you, and almost certainly at a much faster overall speed!

I doubt it very much.

Ah, that's not exhaustion you are seeing at downhill events, it's people gasping for a fag. Nicotine withdrawal can be serious.

😆 Good effort.

You take the pee out of my sport, I'll take the pee out of yours.

However, I think that if Njee entered DH he'd do better than if a typical DHer entered XC 🙂

Didn't Ed Leigh quite an average speed of 14mph at the Olympics. The endorphins are flowing just thinking about it

Do you think 14mph on XC MTBing is slow? If so then you really do have no idea and should probably stop posting.

What is your point anyway? Are you saying that DH racing is more physically demanding than XC, or that DHers are fitter than XC racers?

fervouredimage, njee20 is, I would be willing to gamble, one of the fastest riders on here. By a long way. As above,

However, I think that if Njee entered DH he'd do better than if a typical DHer entered XC

Sorry if he's not up to your level of gnarrrr shredding radnezz and doesn't wear pyjamas or drink countless cans of Monster, but he's fast. Damned fast.

In some ways i think Fervoured image displays XC's problem, people don't understand what it is.

Personnal experience, the start, stupidly fast to point of dying, followed by 90mins of stupidly fast riding, finished off with a sprint for some random placing a long way from the podium placing.

And at the end a feeling of actually having got a decent kicking and a massive endorphin high.

I really struggle to see how DH can ever be more accessible than XC for folk new to riding, as in accessible than XC for folk new to riding, as in properly new to it. People don't walk into their LBS and buy a bike which will be well suited to DH. XC you can do on anything.

However, I think that if Njee entered DH he'd do better than if a typical DHer entered XC