[Closed] vuelta [dodgy spanish dopers question]

Do your worst.

Thanks for that David.

what is getting tiresome after 3 days?

...idiots going about dopers with no +ve tests in the race.

idiots.

well suspicions can be raised about them all and the Spanish federation is less than robust having been taken to court of arbitration for Sports twice re this and lost them both

Its not good to see ex drug cheats/suspects/banned riders compete but I dont see what else we can do. I hope these days they are just a tiny minority and clean athletes can compete finally.

...idiots going about dopers with no +ve tests in the race.

You do know that Marion Jones never tested +ve?

Cynical Al,
I explained I'm no expert and was asking for informed opinion and you call me an idiot.

You sir, are a tosser.

It's a Spanish race, in Spain, loaded with top Spanish roadmen and I expect the Spaniards are loving it.

The riders you mention are the creme de la creme of the cycling world, some who have cheated. Us Brits seem to think the greatest crime is not saying sorry, we all love a cheating scumbag that goes out of his way to say sorry.

aracer - Member
...idiots going about dopers with no +ve tests in the race.
You do know that Marion Jones never tested +ve?

folk were going on about it as she was racing?

Oh...and what about Lance?

Oh...and what about Lance?

I believe he did test +ve, but it was all hushed up?

You know what my point is...

I believe that professional cycling is the 'cleanest' its ever been. Sure there will always be a few 'bad apples' but lets give them the benefit of the doubt.......even the Spaniards!

The Contador issue was a joke, not caused by what the rider did but the ensuing debarcle that followed 🙁

I'll watch it and i dare say enjoy it too!

we all love a cheating scumbag that goes out of his way to say sorry.

We prefer them to say
unrepentant
denial
obfuscation

I assume everyone can see why they are different.

I do, it's just boring, folk going on about doping without present evidence.

But lotsa folks love to get all moral eh? I'm always wary of those Victorian father types.

fingerbanger has had more grand tour wins taken away than anyone else.
If you want to read some good analysis
you'll find none better than
http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/

Cobo's suprising form last year

Not that much, a well known climber and former winner of the Basque.

Did you suspect Froome's surprise form at the time?

Clearly not as Froome isn't a suspicious foreign type

Haze,

fair enough, suspicion tends to fall upon any rider who suprises with their form, I suppose my question is how seriously does the Spanish federation take doping? or does it in-fact tolerate, or indeed facilitate it.

I am not surprised by some of the abuse I will get on here for asking a genuine questio, I remember the torrent of abuse Wiggins got on UK cycling forums for his rant against doping at the end of the 2007 TDF

I understand many cycling fans would rather have all the dope fuelled exciting performances than a clean sport, It's just that I'd rather see a genuine competition.

I understand many cycling fans would rather have all the dope fuelled exciting performances than a clean sport, It's just that I'd rather see a genuine competition.

So would I, if you are trying to polarise the arguments then you really are an idiot, IMO.

suspicion tends to fall upon any rider who suprises with their form

I guess the fallout from years of rampant doping will take a while to recede.

FWIW I believe Contador to be clean, he must surely be under the spotlight. Are returning riders subjected to more frequent tests?

Pro cyclists can be clean and still win races. Lance is a great example with 7 consecutive TDF wins.

Erm...Lance is under investigation with many people ready to testify against him.

Or was that a joke?

Froome last year had just come out of a long illness and was finally able to get some decent training in hence his form improving markedly - although I totally understand why Spanish media might have raised questions over it. Cobo has zero credibility in my eyes.
Any talk of no +ve's is pretty irrelevant really, micro-dosing is next to impossible to detect if done right, autologous blood doping is impossible to detect if done right and who knows what research drugs etc are available to the few with the right contacts and enough money that tests don't even exist for yet.

Pro cyclists can be clean and still win races. Lance is a great example with 7 consecutive TDF wins.

I have only recently taken an interest in road cycling, so I can't comment on the relative performances, but having just finished reading David Millar's book, I do not believe all riders are anywhere near clean... yet.

I think it is way too early in Vuelta to point any fingers, there is an awful lot of climbing still to come.

Lance has the best tweets.

I am very surprised Froomes form has not been questioned more TBH.

three years ago he was 25, finishing mid table in 2nd rate races. 2 years heavily interrupted by injury and respiratory illnesses, and he's suddenly second in the Vuelta and TdF. Much more suspicious than Cobo IMO

And, guilty or not, it is GREAT to have Bertie back in the peloton. He actually races, and looks so good going up hills...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Froome

That guy has GOT to be doping.

Lance has the best tweets.

How are his secondhand brakes?

...do you follow Lance on twitter?

three years ago he was 25, finishing mid table in 2nd rate races.

The Giro is a 2nd rate race? 😯

Meanwhile, in Spanish Cycling Forums, an ill-informed, emotive and poorly researched debate rages into why Team Sky and the Brits are soooo much better than everybody else at the moment...

If you want to know more about doping in cycling you should read David Millars book "Riding Through The Dark" I am no expert on road cycling just an armchair TDF fan but it has opened my eyes and I now watch the grand tours with a whole new perspective.

In fact I have just finished the book so if anyone wants it email me your address and I'll bob it in the post.

Seeing the stance taken by sky and british cycling [particularly Wiggo] was met with some cynicism and snide comments from some euro media, what does the STW crowd think about the Spanish approach? Is the UK media holding back with their opinions in case the Spanish fans push Froome off his bike?

I haven't seen any sniping here in the Spanish media, although a "holier than thou" kind of attitude is just asking for it - it's not as though British cyclists have historically been any cleaner than other countries. I also find it highly unlikely that a Spanish fan would push Froome off his bike, certainly anyone doing so would be pilloried in the press, and probably get a good kicking too.

The Spanish federation certainly defend their riders, and permit them to compete after suspensions - but then again that's hardly unique, the British didn't need to select David Millar for the Olympics either.

ive no problem with doping, but anyone caught referring to a rider as Froome-Dog should be banned from talking about the sport.

same rules for Bertie, Spartacus et Al.

...do you follow Lance on twitter?

Yeah, but more from inertia than anything else - he hasn't said anything interesting for ages.

his coach says that he has a big engine but likened it to a Ferrari whereby if you thrashed it it beat anyone but would blow a piston through the bonnet, so they've had to learn how to manage his efforts differently so that he has the reliability for Grand Tours.

EDIT: Froomey that is

Spanish athletes are all open to the doping accusation whatever sport they are competing(cheating) in. The governing bodies of nearly all there sports only do what they are forced to do regarding positive tests. There is also the political interferance that pretty much dictates the outcomes. The bigger the sport, the more prestiges(S?) for the country and those with the most money can get away with it.
Operation Puerto is the classic example of a cover up to protect athletes. It could not have been shut down in any other Euro country, that undermines all Spanish authorities arguments that they are fighting cheating. I could be completely wrong though but I'd be interested to know who, what sports, the other athletes blood samples found in Operation Puerto came from.

Frankly I'm glad Beefy Bertie is back - pro cycling needs a good stock of panto villains.

A bigger problem for me, is my GF mentioned to me that one of the ITV4 commentators sounds just like Frankie Boyle, so now I can't concentrate on the racing at all, I'm just waiting for him to lay into SuBo or something.

three years ago he was 25, finishing mid table in 2nd rate races.

The Giro is a 2nd rate race?

Fair enough, you've got me there, but 80th in the tour, then 34th in the giro, then two years off, 2nd in the Vuelta and 2nd in the tour...

how long would be an acceptable amount of time to take to progress to that level?

IDK, but surely there's not much difference between finishing mid pack and finishing in the top few?

TDF this year, Wiggo and Froome only rode away from the pelaton twice. For the bulk of the riders finishing in the Pelaton every day consistently the difference between coming 100th and 10th is probably a TT and/or a mountaintop finish. So to elevate yourself from that to the podium is just making a single breakaway stick, winning was 2 breakwaways and 2 time trials.

we have even have some wo[b]r[/b]ds for it
Contrition
redemption
[b]begging for a ride off a pro team, so that you can get onto the team GB Olympic team and sell a few books whilst you are at it; just to remind everyone how sorry you are and what a dark place you were in to be asked to dope in the first place; and how nasty those European director spotif and race doctors were to make you dope[/b]

IDK, but surely there's not much difference between finishing mid pack and finishing in the top few?

There's a huge difference, if there weren't there'd be far more top riders - the domestique's aren't doing it out of a sense of duty, if they could win they would.

Ssh alex222, it's only the Spanish that dope.

Jonathan Vaughters Reexplained : the hot girlfriend from out uv town

captain realizes this bit

is gettin fuggin older

than the bud light someone left captains fridge

but

it fuggin pains him

tuh let his point be left

so fuggin poorly made

so here goes the second try

piecing together from

JV s do you wonder why twittfest

with his post

NYT discussion

the flock

n

reputable fuggers like Shane

picked up on JV

holdin two incompatible view points

#1 JVs implication that if he went back on the dope , he would have been capable uv competing at the grand tour level

#2 the level uv doping feasible today under the blood passport is akin to a marginal non-game changing gain

the reason the two stances are incompatible

are that

because of JVs naturally high hematocrit

he was never able to bump his hgb by more than

1-1.5

which is a level uv doping

that would not get flagged by today’s bioppassport

and therefore

totally feasible today

which leaves JV with two options

#1 doping fer JV back in the day would have elevated him to a competitive level at Le Tour , and that the same level uv doping , which is totally feasible today , can still make all the difference Le Tour today ie your doping back in the day proves that doping likely still has a major impact today
or

#2 that the level uv doping feasible, is a non-factor , whether yer talking about today , or JV way back when. and that dope or no dope JV would have never been a factor in GTs and his decision to retire was not because he chose not to dope, but because top tens in the week long tours got old. ie you got cheated but you didnt chose to give anything up because uv yet conflicted consciounsce

so thats that part

now the hot girlfriend from out uv town

back in captains day

it was important to have a raging hot girlfriend

in most towns

whether yer girlfriend was hot

was fairly fuggin obvious

cuz she was probably in yer fuggin class

but captains town

happenned to be a vacation town

where

often the hottest girlfriends

where to be had

by mixing with the vacation crowd

trouble was

bein that havin a hot girlfriend

was bout as much bout impressing yer friends

as actually enjoying things fer what they were

yuh had to make fuggin sure

everybody witnessed yer hot girlfriend

utherfugginwise

yuh got lumped the fuggin

with every other idiot loser

who would claim

they had a hot girlfriend

but she

was

just

out

of

town

with this background

fuggin laid out

yuh migh kin figure

why captain gets a bit fuginn skeptical

on

JV

the bioppassport numbers prove cycling is clean

(the hot girlfriend)

I don’t understand why the UCI wont release them

(but she’s just out uv town)

brad released his 2009 blood data

(the hot girlfriend)

but you gotta understand the practical issues like I do to actually interpret them

(but shes outta town)

I gave Ryder’s blood data to so and so and so and so I don’t understand by they haven’t published them yet

(the hot girlfriend)

but I left out the part how it’s just a list uv unverifiable numbers I put in an email

(but she’s outta town)

I know all uv dekkers story

(the hot girlfriend)

this is the first time I’ve heard of geert

(but she’s outta town)

I doped when it was impossible not to

(the hot girlfriend)

but I refuse to tear down the corrupt system that created that reality

(but she’s outta town)

i tweet and forumn hop an engage all for transparency

(the hot girlfriend)

but I pivot to a talkin point anytime the questions get hard

(but she’s outta town)

Allen lim , I hate the guy

(the hot girlfriend)

but Floyd said to not unfairly railroad him out

(but she’s outta town)

brad’s a dick

(the hot girlfriend)

but I’ll talk up his stock and jump on his coattails any chance I get

(but she’s outta town)

the real victims of doping were those who chose not to dope and wher left behind

(the hot girlfriend)

and I’ll use this sad story to market my team uv ex dopers who did chose dope and wherent left behind

(but she’s outta town)

I’m trying to fight doping the best way I know how

(the hot girlfriend)

but anyone who disagrees with my way is an iconoclast

(but she’s outta town)

…

So JV knows riders are clean because he doped

but the truth is

by his admission

all he did was a little classic epo

no blood transfusions

and no masking

which is about the equivalent

uv shootin off a bottle rocket

and thinkin yer ready to land a rover on mars

in JVs oversimplified talking points

raising

hgb by 1.5 = no meaningful gain

raising hgb by 2.5 = no clean race horse stands a fuggin chance

without masking 1 - 1.5 will not get flagged

with masking 2.5 down to something that looks like 1 - 1.5

will still not get flagged

yes blood transfusion outside a hospital

if yer riccardo ricco

are fuggin scary

or no more big a deal than keepin a bowl uv ice water in the fridge

if yer Floyd

and yes a masking agent

is not a masking agent

if its detectable

unless its plausibly deniable

and yes

sophisticated doping

would taken a team

uv doctors

DS

and drug mules

and

facilitative governing body

to pull off

but this is exactly what USADA

says they found and McQuaid is so desperately trying to keep from the light uv day

…

JV

captain wants tuh believe that yer girlfriend is hot

but at some point

yer gunna have to let us meet her

if she ever happens to be in town

In fact I have just finished the book so if anyone wants it email me your address and I'll bob it in the post.

He actually races, and looks so good going up hills...

[url= http://www.velominati.com/look-pro/look-pro-en-danseuse/ ]Avoid the bouncing bopper[/url]

After the most hilarious post in a while from PMK we now have Emanuel with the most incomprehensible post in a long time, this thread delivers.

After the most hilarious post in a while from PMK we now have Emanuel with the most incomprehensible post in a long time, this thread delivers.

I do believe kaesae has a rival!

i'm just quoting.
Besides,it's not easy to write so damn well.
and it is written well.read it.
so.[url= http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/page/22 ]more where that came from[/url]
besides,he knows his shit.

I struggle with long sentences

There's a huge difference, if there weren't there'd be far more top riders - the domestique's aren't doing it out of a sense of duty, if they could win they would.

2 mountains and 2 TT's? out of 21 stages? Not a huge difference between winning and coming mid-pack. Look at it the other way, if Froome had punctured again and lost another 2min he'd have been "the second brit in the top ten" rather than 2nd overall, if he'd (or Wiggo) had not been nursed back to the front after almost blowing up they'd have been well and trully mid pack.

[i]

soobalias - Member

ive no problem with doping, but anyone caught referring to a rider as Froome-Dog should be banned from talking about the sport.

same rules for Bertie, Spartacus et Al.

Would that be a two year ban? If so, can I apply to the STW moderator to have it applied retrospectively and have any forum comments I made the last 18 months disregarded/deleted, thus being able to rejoin the conversation in 6 months time?

 

Fair enough, you've got me there, but 80th in the tour, then 34th in the giro, then two years off, 2nd in the Vuelta and 2nd in the tour...

I could also point out that 34th in a GT is rather better than mid-pack - isn't that higher up the GC than Boardman ever managed, and he was trying and had aspirations to be a contender at one point (and even managed podiums in some of the classic 1 week races)?

2 mountains and 2 TT's? out of 21 stages? Not a huge difference between winning and coming mid-pack. Look at it the other way, if Froome had punctured again and lost another 2min he'd have been "the second brit in the top ten" rather than 2nd overall, if he'd (or Wiggo) had not been nursed back to the front after almost blowing up they'd have been well and trully mid pack.

There's not a massive time difference, but the majority of the domestiques aren't suffering punctures or whatever on a regular basis, yet the most they can realistically hope for during their careers is perhaps a stage win. For whatever reason (and of course that might include an aversion to doping) they're just not competitive at the top level. Which is why as soon as a Froome or Cobo turns up people start to cry drugs.

Guilty of doping? Remorse or not you'll always be a doper

Similar to how cynical always trolls the opposite view to everyone else

I feel a bit sad that both the Dopers and Al have to resort to this to get results/massage their inflated egos.

http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/27063552289/expert-analysis-froome-another-planet
http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/24770057419/brad-wiggins-sky-doping-recap
froome's tenerific form
http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/26773366976/bradwiggins-its-not-you-brad-its-geert
no true blooded (ha.funny that,given the context) englishman could ever dope
smell the coffee.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/11/dave-brailsford-team-sky
it's not hard to piece together the simple fact that dope use is rife.
be they johnny foreigners or full blooded (ha,funny, given the context) englishmen.

the clean now ruse

there a fugg lot uv people whod say

if yer clean now

what the shit does it matter youve dunnin the past

?

what these people ignore

is that

while the dope mightuv gone away

the experience

the contacts

the exposure

and

the other side benefits you fuggin got

uv racing

at a level youd a otherwise never a fuggin reached

does not

its still there

even after the super human physiology is not

which

all other things bein the fugg equal

gives you an advantage because you doped

now the equalizer

might fuggin be

that yer dope history

be fuggin undesirable

but unless your a balled dick namrd schumacher

seems like

thata aint exactly the fugginncase

if english is your first language and you have a problem understanding this,well...
read it here
http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/new-offering-taintbag-translation-service/

there was a thread done [url= http://forums.cyclingweekly.co.uk/showthread.php?12381-Gert-Leinders-Sky-s-Team-Dr-Has-an-quot-Interesting-quot-History.&s=e43e652a5576c730957defe016eee3a2 ]here[/url]
reading it now.

Sky play a blinder with the patrotism nonsense. That doesnt wash for me. There a multi national team with a multi national corprorate sponsor . Its a business,and it should be subject to as much rigorous sceptisism as any other.
exactly.(quote from page2 of the thread I posted above).
what was it that dr johnson said?
patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.
and bierce (the devil's dict-great book) adds,
it's probably the first.

how can you pay so much attention to someone (captain bag) who writes in such a profoundly illegible fashion? you have to read it three times - once to translate, a second time to work out what he has said and a third to try and work out if it's not just idle bollocks. which it is.

how can you pay so much attention to someone (captain bag) who writes in such a profoundly illegible fashion?

It helps if you're a doper, I imagine.

I find it perfectly clear.first time round.
come on,you can't tell me riis gave back all he'd earned after he cried and admitted his guilt on danish tv,for example.or that contador's mother really did die,as he swore on her life.or that miracles do happen if you believe in them.I could go on.
the thread on cyclingweekly was good as well.

this one was a bit shite.

ISNRATFS

(I'm Still Not Reading All That Fuggin Excremenet)

So some of you are saying Froome dopes... which means Wiggo must dope and Cav and pretty much the whole Sky team, due to the commercial pressures put on them.

As we all know the Sky team is run by the same people that run the GB track team, so it follows that they must all dope as well, and the dope they are using must be amazing, as not one of them tested positive after winning medals at the Olympics a couple of weeks ago.

Either that, or all of that lottery funding is actually producing results.... nah, that can't be it.

The Giro is a 2nd rate race?

The Giro [u]del Capo[/u] sure is. That's the one that Froome came in 2nd in 2008. Not to be confused with the Giro [u]d'Italia[/u].

I'm not suggesting he's doping, rather setting the facts straight.

So some of you are saying Froome dopes... which means Wiggo must dope and Cav and pretty much the whole Sky team, due to the commercial pressures put on them.

Don't think anyone's said that Froome dopes, and even if they did to assume that one doper means the whole team is doping... in fact, what's been said is the complete opposite - we accept that Froome's clean, and has gone from nobody to Tour/Vuelta GC contender, why shouldn't Cobo be afforded the same benefit of the doubt?

perhaps everyone else has stopped doping, meaning that those with true clean talent - e.g. Froome - are automatically elevated in the ranks.

I'm not suggesting he's doping, rather setting the facts straight.

If only you were. I was actually referring to the Giro d'Italia (commonly abbreviated to "Giro"), a race which as mentioned above he finished 34th in - a position rather better than "mid pack".

how can you pay so much attention to someone (captain bag) who writes in such a profoundly illegible fashion? you have to read it three times - once to translate, a second time to work out what he has said and a third to try and work out if it's not just idle bollocks. which it is.

I'm impressed you even went to the effort of working out where emanuel got that lot from (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to - you seem to have neglected to quote his whole post). I just decided it was best to ignore the whole lot.

I thought the comments might be coming from a position of knowledge and was intrigued as to why emanuel found him worth both quoting and referencing. I'm none the wiser for my efforts.

Never mind the Spanish riders, the fans on yesterdays stage must be on something 😯 they were nuts quite a few nearly ran into the riders, they get far to close.

Don't think anyone's said that Froome dopes

Maybe I should have said 'implied' .

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but there are some pretty clear indications that people think Chris Froome has progressed way too fast in the past few years.

Fair enough, you've got me there, but 80th in the tour, then 34th in the giro, then two years off, 2nd in the Vuelta and 2nd in the tour...

Don't forget in the recent races he was there to cover Wiggins so he's not really had to do the domestiques role. In previous years he would have been going back to the car for bottles, lashing himself to chase down breakaways etc. - really easy to bury yourself for 100kms and roll in 10 minutes down after being spent 20kms from the finish. Add that up a couple of times and suddenly you're 80th instead of 2nd.

Maybe the rest has been good for him - got some solid training in instead of doing races everywhere for the team. I dunno.

How many Spanish riders have won the Vuelta against the number of Italians in the Giro? Now they really make sure the Italian is going to win on home ground!

clear indications that people think Chris Froome has progressed way too fast

careful now, one person does not make people - a classic STW trait is to take one person's opinion and assume it has weight because of the strength of their belief and the plurality of their posts.

I'm finding it a musing that the convicted doper Valverde is accusing Sky of deliberately causing and taking advantage of his fall i.e. cheating 🙂 now he knows how the clean riders must feel

Big fat steak tonight for Bertie, I reckon.

Emmanuel - [i]Please[/i] stop posting that garbage. My eyes now hurt.

I personally don't care who is or isn't doping. The racing is all good, and I'm happy that Contador is back; he's very exciting to watch & forces the other to work & react. If they (the peloton) doesn't like it, then... Oh hang on, apparently they all do..!