[Closed] USADA releasing Armstrong evidence today.

There's no reason to think that all rider's performances would be raised to the same extent by using drugs.

All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.

Interesting article on the role of Livestrong and how their money is spent.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

sorry ac282, we cant even say that.

he was the most secret drug taking american cyclist to compete in grand tours between 1999 and 2005 - is slightly closer.

if he wanted an open doped competition, he should have opened his version of the rules up to the world.

The "all doing it thus level playing field" has been proved to a false argument. There is an upper ceiling of blood values set by the UCI. The further you are naturally away from them then the more benefit you get from the drugs program to get up to them. Also the more money you have then the better the program. This is not a level playing field. Various books have more detailed argument - Tyler's etc...

All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.

All we know is the drugs he took combined with the large amount of investment in team riders, aerodynamics, bikes etc. (and even valid things like training schedules, diet, 'proper' vitamin supplements etc. made him the fastest rider on the tour. I don't think you could say he was the best drug taking cyclist on the tour, many others could have surpassed him but they didn't have the financial backing to win and hence get the spotlight.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

Does anybody knowe what the USADA's end game is?

Blacken his name...fraud charges...jail time

Look, LA isn't admitting to [i]cheating[/i] because he has worked it around in his mind that he hasn't, wasn't and can't admit it even if he wanted to.

Ever since the days of Anquetil, possibly earlier. For some riders, the use of drugs was just as much a part of the sport as tyres.

Does anybody knowe what the USADA's end game is?

Blacken his name...fraud charges...jail time

They have reached their end game, exposed a cheat and revealed the truth. The ball is no longer in their court.

At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.
Drugs have been embedded in cycling for years, the late great Tommy Simpson being another example. According to friends/ family he held an anti-drug stance; moved to Europe and started using (speed back then I think). The reason quoted was that he wanted to compete with the top level competition and without drugs he could not.
Armstrong analysed the whole methodology necessary to win the tour a bit like BSkyB are doing now; he seems to have concluded that to win he would need the drugs that everyone else at the top end of the competition was using, unsurprising considering his complete focus upon the tour and incredible will to win.
I think he probably was the best at the time; the best rider, the best team and the best at taking drugs and not getting caught. Knowing what we know now can anyone be certain that the riders who came second to him in those seven years hadn't also taken drugs.
In some ways I believe he is being put up a a scapegoat for the era.
I do think he is being an #rse by not assisting and agree with Hincapie it is to the future that we should be looking.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

He might have been a better rider, but we'll never know - we do now know he was taking banned performance enhancing drugs though.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.

I think many would agree with you if he hadn't so agressively gone after people who were anti doping e.g. the report calls the Simeoni incident 'one of the most shameful incidents in our sport's history' iirc

What I dont understand is he worked his nuts off (yeah ok nut), he obviously made sure he was fit as fitterly-be, bike work, aerodynamics, team tactics, team selection, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Then he takes chemicals.

Why? ****ing stupid ****.

He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.

Look at the plastic bag that felled him, he got up and with grim determination stormed up and won on a broken pedal and probably in a bit of pain. That shows a man utterly driven to win. Yet his foible was to smack up like the rest of them.

****ing stupid ****.

Now fast-forward. Look at how dominant our Olympic team has been. I dont CARE that its because the velodrome was in England for the Games. Bollocks. When there was a French complaint that the Brits must be using 'special wheels' I thought 'wheels or the engine'?

Sorry, if individuals can evade justice for so long- how? Is cycling REALLY clean NOW?

Listen to what Armstrong is saying about not being able [i]fess-up[/i].
For me this helps illustrate how he views his actions.

Start at 1:50

Armstrong:
"[i]he doesn't feel like he's guilty[/i]"

I believe LA thinks the same way. Whether he will always hold to his current view of what he has done, only time will tell.

The sport is still full of hypocrisy, e.g. Wiggins going on about the great Tom Simpson, during this years tour - reverence for a drug cheat, what's all that about? Yet suggest Team Sky are like US Postal and he get's all upset.....

Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match

He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.

No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.

I don't understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs [b]on top[/b] of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.

Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match

He is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy!

[i]Lance outwitted them game set and match [/i]

Not really, he and others... just used in a way that the tests of the time couldn't detect. Which, really, was down to the medicos who knew what the tests could and couldn't detect.

Now that more sensitive tests and proceedures such as those that Ashenden has helped to devise are coming in. Old samples are now showing positive results...

An arms race, kinda situation.

No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.

I don't understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs on top of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.

The Millar & Hamilton books underline this, especially Hamilton's. The extent of fitness, weight loss & power development was immense - the doping took this up a level. In fact, Hamilton said he was not offered EPO until he got fit & lean enough.

from a non-roadie outsider like myself one thing has become pretty clear to me, and im sure this is the way LA is probably thinking...

by the sounds of the damning report of co riders, people he rode against etc etc etc, its pretty fair to say that yes he was cheating, but so was pretty much everyone else around him, the amount of people that have come out and admitted to cheating (big names), and no doubt a massive amount of people whom havent come out and admitted...

therefore pretty much as funkydunc above says, its a level ground, he was just the best rider in a bunch of cheats....id be totally against him if he was the only one, but it was a level playing field (pretty much) and he wont 5 in a row, and other drug cheats around him would have being doing more and more to stay in contention of him and they still couldnt get close....

i dont know why its not just laid to bed, it really does seem like a witch hunt, when reality is that the whole tour clearly from around that period was flawed, and ultimately they didnt trace his drugs at the time.....the tour then has to take some of the blame for its lack or inability to trace the drug users surely?

he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else....how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!

basically if he hadnt have won, whose to say the person next 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th placed rider wasnt doing it too?

just put the tour down to a cheat era around then and leave it at that....

contador has been found guilty and stripped today of a tour or two in modern day society, so it still goes on, minimal fuss really, he got stripped of his tours, and is now back riding pro again...this witch hunt against lance just seems a bit to personal for what ever reason....

Lance outwitted them game set and match

No he didn't when he had the chance to defend himself he chose to turn, run and try to undermine the work they'd done...

I call bollocks. Sorry bollocks.

You still don't understand this issue at all.

I was a big Lance fan growing up so am a bit saddened by how his career will now be remembered. It's pretty clear from the evidence that he doped but it also seems everyone else he was racing against was at it as well.

The sad truth is that most of the pasts cycling greats doped from the beginnings of the tour, even the likes of Merckx and Coppi admitted to doping and are still considered as some of the greatest cyclists of all time.

any pro sportsman or woman who has to resort to taking drugs to win should not be called a pro simple, they are just sportsmen or women or cant hack it with the true sports stars of the day, im sure there are still lots of sports people still willing to chance taking drugs to win, but in my book if you have to cheat to win then why bother in the first place, i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it, i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats, there is of course the big reason why so many sportspeople choose to do it in the first place is it the money involved or the fear of failure or what i think that thats the only way they can win or keep winning, lance armstrong another knob bites the dust.

OscillateWidly.

If I may, I'd point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.

So, imo, no, it wasn't really a "[i]LA was the best of a bad bunch[/i]" scenario at all.

[i]i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it[/i]

Aye, but doesn't that depend on where you set the bar to define [i]Cheating[/i] ?. Some athletes obviously set that bar way low, etc, etc.

[i]i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats[/i]

imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro, as clean riders, [u]only then to be pressured[/u] / turned to taking drugs.

he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else....how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!

You might be able to make that argument if it wasn't also for the fact he has been shown to have pressured other riders to take part in doping, and bullied and harassed those that spoke out about it.

He could have put his energies and authority into racing clean. After all he is no pushover.

Solo - Member

OscilateWidly.

If I may, I'd point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.

So, imo, no, it wasn't really a "LA was the best of a bad bunch" scenario at all.

i do appreciate, not everyone would have been cheating, and for those who were'nt its an awful thing...but i think its fair to say, most of his team mates were doing it, whats to say other teams were not doing the same just to stay in contention of him?

generally speaking though it does appear alot of riders from around that era have been found guilty of it, and as its so open and unknown now whose to say everyone around the era was'nt? its really flawed in saying it wasnt a level par, as at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating, so years on whose to say the other teams/riders near to him werent doing exactly the same?

at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating

Yes he was, it was covered up, really how hard is this to understand.

solo. imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro,only then to be pressured / turned to taking drugs.

my statement still stands what type of sportsman does that make you, same thing different sport would you take a dive in boxing to further your career

[i]i think its fair to say, most of his team mates were doing it, whats to say other teams were not doing the same just to stay in contention of him?[/i]
Agreed

[i]so years on whose to say the other teams/riders near to him werent doing exactly the same[/i]

Its a possibility and possibly the saddest of scenarios to contemplate. That the entire peloton could have been juicing.

For myself, I really hope that there was at least one rider there who wasn't [i]using[/i].
But you make a good point, we, the fans and consumers, will never really know.

MSP - Member

at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating

Yes he was, it was covered up, really how hard is this to understand.

MSP , read my post first, i dont disagree hes cheated, i think the evidence is clear and that many team mates (and some good friends no doubt) cant be wrong/hate him that much....

my point is, and solely is he cheated, it got covered up, but whats to say it wasnt a level playing field and everyone else was doing it? he evaded being caught, so other teams could have done the same, but a decade on and its only a witch hunt for LA, making it out to general public like he was the only person/rider/competitor involved... the only thing im trying to say is if it was a level playing field then hes just the best of a bad bunch (which as at the time of those tours LA wasnt found to be cheating, just like all the other riders could have been getting away with too)

[i]my statement still stands what type of sports[b]Hu[/b]man does that make you[/i]

Just that, Human.

We all make mistakes, surely as much as the clean and honest deserve their chance, those who fall must surely be offered forgiveness and a chance to do good, no ?.

OW.

The reasons, perhaps, that LA has been targetted are that he took 7 TDFs and thumbed his nose at the authorities whos job it is to question and look into that kind of performance.

Had LA finished 32nd, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have attracted all the attention he has, and all the attention he has solicited...

Oscillate Wildly - Member
my point is, and solely is he cheated, it got covered up, but whats to say it wasnt a level playing field and everyone else was doing it?

It wasn't a level playing field because people's bodies respond to EPO in different ways, and some riders are naturally close to the UCI's maximum hematocrit levels so couldn't 'make up' the difference like those with naturally lower hematocrit levels.

Which (as well as the possibility of killing themselves) is another good argument against 'just legalise everything'.

No other team seemed to have the resources or the protection that Lance had, at first it seemed to be the mythology of his cancer survival, and then he became a massive financial and political heavyweight (at least in cycling terms).

Following the 1998 tour there did seem to be a will to change the sport and move away from the drugs, but he smashed that to smithereens, and later destroyed anybody who stood in his way. Unfortunately his cancer experience made him untouchable by most of the media, and then with that sucsess he bought more and more power.

And still today he is hiding behind the cancer screen

Solo - Member

OW.

The reasons, perhaps, that LA has been targetted are that he took 7 TDFs and thumbed his nose at the authorities whos job it is to question and look into that kind of performance.

Had LA finished 32nd, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have attracted all the attention he has, and all the attention he has solicited...

thats exactly my thinking , i agree totally, it seems like a personal vendetta against a man who has clearly 'got away with it' so to speak....

i still think that most of the field would have been cheating to some extent, and as we'll never know they also got away with it....be interesting to see if they delved into every single riders history around those tours, and im pretty sure most of the field would have been doping to some extent, especially challengers to lances yellow jersey...

i mean he won 7tdf's how on earth did he not get spotted for cheating at some point?!?! not even one little slip up, or was he really that powerful he influenced people right at the top to cover up to?!?!

guess we'll never know....

im still on the side of yes hes a cheat, but still the best cheat around then, and sadly tarnishes any riders around that era too for me...

OW.

My point was that its no more personal vendetta than the authorities will always be inclined to scrutinise those who stand on the podium, for that very fact. Not because the winners initals are [i]LA[/i].

As for being the best cheat of his era, I'd caveat that with Lifer's point about not everyone in the peloton being at the same point on the EPO useage curve.

EDIT:

Anyway, there is bad and good in all this.
Its all very sad in that any child with dreams of becoming a TDF winner like LA was. Will be very disappointed their hero has feet of clay.
But, if this cleans the sport up so that futures generations do get to compete, [i]clean[/i] and solely on their own physical merit. Then its not all been for nothing.

solo - just meant personal as in 'he cheated for so long and made us look bad, we best put this straight' type vendetta...i reckon if he'd have won the odd one here and there it would be no worse than contador....

yep i agree its awful for those genuine at the time, problem is LA evaded being caught at the time, so theres nothing anywhere to say that other teams were'nt doing the same and not getting caught, its hard to draw a line under it, i guess we'll just never know properly.... you just hope that it was just LA, but i really do doubt it....

thats exactly my thinking , i agree totally, it seems like a personal vendetta against a man who has clearly 'got away with it' so to speak....

Or, sending out a clear message that however rich, powerful and popular you are, you will get caught in the end - pretty big deterrent to potential future dopers.