[Closed] Ultegra groupset- unreasonable expectations?

[i]unreasonable expectations[/i]

any thread started by you with that in the title's probably only got one answer 😉

what to do you mean by not silky smooth? It clunks or there's some other noise or that it's just not like a swiss watch movement across the cassette?

did you set it up right?

Hidden cables? I was pretty surprised to compare my older 105 with newer kit, the cable routes used to be designed for shifting, now they're designed for looks and maybe "aero". But mostly looks I think.

My mountain bike gears feel more precise and smoother. The Ultegra takes effort to move across the (closer) ratio cassette which I thought would make it quicker/smoother.

It feels like old road bike gears compared (i.e old tech).

From memory only the front mech is hidden cables the rear runs external.

I'm not hugely impressed with the ultegra on my cube road bike either. It's definitely better than what i had on the old bike but it doesn't feel as good as say XTR vs Deore on my MTB's.

As above, it could be down to cable routing as much as the components themselves. is there any exposed cable you can pull by hand near the mech to see if it's smoother then?

I'm not hugely impressed with the ultegra on my cube road bike either. It's definitely better than what i had on the old bike but it doesn't feel as good as say XTR vs Deore on my MTB's

Ah I'm not alone 🙂

As above, it could be down to cable routing as much as the components themselves. is there any exposed cable you can pull by hand near the mech to see if it's smoother then?

will do later/check for snagging etc. Could be an idea to upgrade the outers and make sure they loop/curve abit more to allow freerer movement?

Time to upgrade to Di2 🙂

Clunky how? Upshift, downshift? Stiff? Don't like the lever feel?

Time to upgrade to Di2

I'm never going to be good enough to warrant mega-money stuff. 🙂

My 6800 is a definite improvement over my 5600, not that there's anything wrong with the 105.

New gears always seem mechanical till they wear in a bit.

good chance your mtb gears are just worn so your used to it feeling "smooth"

my XTR shifter/XTR rear mech combos both 950 and 970 both feel like my ultegra 6600 and 6700s. as you say mechanical and controled.

my deore set up i used to have felt silky smooth and not "clunky" - reality was it was just worn.

I'm never going to be good enough to warrant mega-money stuff.

You're not good enough to warrant Ultegra FWIW 😉

Obviously the answer to the thread is 'yes' though.

Ultegra should be very fast and precise, shouldn't feel clunky at all....

So that's why those Planet Xs were so cheap? The gears are actually Claris, with ultegra written on?

Clever.

Unless its OEM stuff (but why would it be different).

I guess give it time to break in. Probably had about <500miles so far.

[i]I'm never going to be good enough to warrant mega-money stuff[/i]

The mega-money stuff [b]makes[/b] you that good, duh.

The Tiagra on my cube road bike is fairly poor shifting, I was quite surprised how poor it felt compared to my mixture of XT cassette + one up cog,SLX mech,XT shifter on my mountain bike.

I've spent hours trying to get it to shift cleanly, and I've improved it, but its way off how my mongrel gears on the mountain bike shift, even when clagged up with mud and grit.

Was thinking about changing to ultegra, but probably not worth it.

Unless its OEM stuff (but why would it be different).

even when clagged up with mud and grit.

I run a full outer but even so the gritstone etc etc do get inside after months of use and washing. It still shifts beautifully and precise though compared.

Welcome to the world of OEM

Do they have two tiers of kit in the road world a la OEM?

not sure on road but loads of OEM stuff is ever so slightly different, heavier, cheaper, not as good so I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway who set it up for you? Is the cable run good & has it been set up right?

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You're expectations are what they usually are.

I'd like the finest components known to man, that will last for ever. But I want to pay next to nothing for them... in fact, absolutely nothing would be even better.

Then I'd like a team of customer support people, available 24 hours, to hang in on my every word, and to drop everything to cater to my endless whining, every non-sensical whim, and ridiculous expectations, then take care of the crushingly inevitable warranty claim.

Of course, none of these components will be purchased through a traditional bike shop, as I've had them all closed down. I will be expecting all this impeccable customer support from the one remaining retailer of bike parts in the country, based in a ****ing huge mega- warehouse in the Midlands, though for tax reasons the transactions say Luxembourg, and is staffed entirely by immigrants on minimum wage, zero-hours contracts

Get someone who knows about bikes to have a look ,it may just need set up properly.

To be fair the first generation of groupsets with hidden cables were widely slated for being a bit shit, and as Northwind says they designed the cable runs with aesthetics in mind, not performance. 7900/6700/5700 are all pretty nasty feeling at the lever IMO, lots of friction and not a very nice shift.

The new 11 speed groups (or the older external cabled 7800/6600/5600) are far better.

From memory only the front mech is hidden cables the rear runs external.

Unless you've got wildly different STIs they either both run under the bar tape, or both run external. I'd assume the former as it's a new bike. 6600 was superseded about 6 years ago.

Is the cable run good & has it been set up right

I need to hunt down a good roadie shop near to Manchester.

One thing I did note (not sure if all new bikes are like this though as I wouldn't set up my outers like this personally) - all the outers look alot shorter than I would cut them. So short that they rest quite firmly against the paint with no protection between (had to sort this asap). Could this effect shifting quality?

Try mid-range Campag and then go back to your bike; it will feel buttery smooth

"Campag wears in. Shimano wears out"

New gears always seem mechanical till they wear in a bit.

Nonsense. Ultegra should feel perfect from the outset.

Did you ream the ends of your cables properly? I've seen so many people suffering from poor shifting simply because the inner cable sleeve is fouling the cable.

I have various 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace groupsets and they all shift perfectly when set up correctly.

If it "slams" into gear when moving down the sprocket, just back off the inline adjuster slightly - it should just snick in with minimal noise.

"Campag wears in. Shimano wears out"

This is BS (talking as a long term Campag-phile). Unsuprisingly both wear out. Campag just has a more definite shift action (which some would call clunky - YMMV). It's just personal preference.

New gears always seem mechanical till they wear in a bit.

This is also BS IMO. Ultegra and pretty much any groupset from Sora upwards should shift smoothly and easily when new.

Cable runs sound like the problem to me.

Any recommendations for a decent road bike shop in Manchester?

I'll take some pics later of the outers- I personally think they look abit short but then in road-terms it could be viewed as economical with length is best.

Once it beds in a bit I expect it'll be fine.

I thought you didn't see the point of [s]self-serving, greedy, grasping bike shops[/s] community hubs, and certainly wouldn't be darkening their door EVER, as you hoped that the sooner they got the bankruptcy they so richly deserve, the better?

binners you really are my nemesis 8)

Not me? 🙁

Well I've got to have some purpose in life

😀

Not me?

You're my nemesis, nemesis.

Binners is [i]my[/i] nemesis.

"Campag wears in. Shimano wears out"

Tiagra on mine, and the mech end is as crisp as anything I've ridden on any other bike. Just needs adjusting right. If anything, it'll be smoother than XT/X0 which have huge springs and reverb right thru the frame when new. Lever end is maybe a bit more vague in feel, on the release lever. Feels a bit plasticky compared to XT, which is probably becasue it is.

I'm never going to be good enough to warrant mega-money stuff.

Sell it to fund 105 di2?

I've not used any of the new groupsets, but my 7800 is still silky smooth and apparently 9000/6800/5800 is a return to form so if it's not great on your's I'd look at the cables and their routing. Maybe try thinner cables and R&R cable magic?

This is BS (talking as a long term Campag-phile). Unsuprisingly both wear out. Campag just has a more definite shift action (which some would call clunky - YMMV). It's just personal preference.

You're right, it is personal preference. However my experience of a brand new Campag Veloce group set was that it was - frankly - crap. Agricultural is too complimentary an adjective. My personal preference is for something considerably smoother and quieter.

GT85
GT85
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GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85
GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85
GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85
GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85
GT85GT85GT85GT85GT85
GT85GT85GT85
GT85
GT85
😆

Possibly older campag was better quality but I was thoroughly put off by modern campag when I was looking around before purchase.

The Veloce etc just looks shit. almost like die-cast cheap halford stuff.

The newer 11speed ultegra is a lot nicer, lighter shifting and smoother. Not stupid money either, but your current stuff should work fine, bent mech hanger?

I reckon that Campag are struggling to keep up with Shimano and SRAM given the relative sizes of the companies. I do agree that their cheaper stuff looks a lot less refined (though IME it seems to work fine).

I'm 'new' to road riding so I'm probably way out/wrong but would love to know. My Ultegra 6800 isn't silky-smooth shifting, it shifts (it doesn't need adjusting and isn't skipping/part-shift or dry chain etc), it just feels clunky and plastic-flimsy-feeling.

Agreed. I think all road kit feels a bit cheap next to MTB stuff. Front mechs are a prime example: Very flimsy and why do you need trim on them? MTBs don't need it. (I reckon it's only there to give the rider something to do as road riding is so boring.... 😉 )
I've worked on everything up to Di2 and I think XT wipes the floor with any road group set. It just feels nicer, shifts better and is better made.

If you want a good road-orientated bike shop near you, head out of streftord through alty and then onto Northwich, go to Dave Hinde cycles and talk to Dave, he would be just the kind of person to help you

clunky = solid/positive feeling shifting which is what a high end shift should feel like - not a "mis shifting" clunky - sora and ultegra are MILEs apart after 500 miles IME in the quality of shift - even if its all clean and nice with new cabling.

Deore feels like that when new - then the shifts soften off sharply as it wears out at the jockey wheels and the pivots etc.

YMMV

If you want a good road-orientated bike shop near you, head out of streftord through alty and then onto Northwich, go to Dave Hinde cycles and talk to Dave, he would be just the kind of person to help you

Or, if you don't find him to be quite your cup of tea, pop in to the bikeroom on Deansgate, they'll be as happy to help as you will be to be in there 😈

edhornby - Member
If you want a good road-orientated bike shop near you, head out of streftord through alty and then onto Northwich, go to Dave Hinde cycles and talk to Dave, he would be just the kind of person to help you

Very cruel, but funny. I'm sure Hora knows not to go there 😀

I knew about Dave Hinde over a decade ago.

The guys consistent, I'll give him that.

The Bike Room- what if their fellow customers see my bike and ask me about my bike compared to the value of the ones on display?

Hora - go to Ken Fosters in Chorlton. Good bunch in there, despite all being roadies. They'll sort it out for you, without treating you with obvious contempt you deserve.

Well... actually they would have done, if I hadn't just emailed them with a link to all your opinions on local bike shops, and a photo.

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I have 6700 on my Giant with Shimano outers and inners built up by a very good bike shop as it's a custom job / build and my mate has 6700 on his Battagilan (or however the **** you spell it) - built by Planet-X with non-shimano outers / inners and his gears & brakes don't feel anywhere near as smooth as mine.

Go figure

FWIW, my 2300 groupset (about 4 levels down and one iteration previous to it) shifts amazingly.

Oiled your chain?

go to Ken Fosters in Chorlton.

Decent old roadie shops aren't expensive. That place IS expensive. Seen their price tags on average/middling stuff?!!

You wouldn't expect Ultegra 6800 compared with Tiagra say, to feel the same as XTR compared with Deore - because it's nor comparable. Ultegra should be on a level with XT.

My experience of Ultegra 6800 (on several of our demo bikes) is that it shifts very smoothly and works much better than previous Ultegra groupsets, and noticeably better than 105. It's not far off Dura Ace performance levels in my experience. It wins our "bargain groupset" award despite not being cheap!

FWIW, my 2300 groupset (about 4 levels down and one iteration previous to it) shifts amazingly

Sora/Tiagra is 'clunky', Ultegra and DA stuff I would normally describe as 'crisp' rather than silky smooth.

Front mechs are a prime example: Very flimsy and why do you need trim on them? MTBs don't need it.

Because of shorter distance between chainrings and cassette, combined with a narrower cage, meaning more likelihood of rubbing...

FWIW, my 2300 groupset (about 4 levels down and one iteration previous to it) shifts amazingly

I've got Tiagra (3400?) on my Allez and it's utter shit compared to the higher end groupsets! Clearly there's some personal preference going on here.

Cables cables cables. they make a huge difference on Road bikes,especially ones with internal, under the tape routing.

My Ultegra was a bit disappointing when new but after a few hundred miles and ditching the OE Jagewire cables for Gore RideOns it's now as smooth as a baby's backside.

As above, cables. Sp41 outer and the polymer Shimano infers and it's super smooth. Most OEM's won't pay for the good cables and put crappy ones on.
My Giant came with Jagwire and I changed them for Dura Ace cables and it's a huge difference.

That I will agree with. Brakes too.

Are these the ones where the shift cable is hidden under the bar tape, rather than popping out of the end of the shifter like an insect antenna?

I'm sure I've read several reviews that have said the shifting of them isn't as good as the said 'insect antenna' cable routing shifters.

I was surprised how 'clunky' the shifting is on my road bike. But that's low-end Sora stuff.

Are these the ones where the shift cable is hidden under the bar tape, rather than popping out of the end of the shifter like an insect antenna?

Its the one with shifter cable wrapped under the tape.

Will get proper inners too and the brakes sorted at the sametime.

Its a tiny thing- but tbh once the saddle was sorted, with the gears it'll be a glide. Funny isn't it- the smoother the riding surface the more subtle (and yet) obvious the small things become...are amplified.

Will get proper inners too and the brakes sorted at the sametime.

Outers make as big a difference, particularly for brakes, less compression = sharper and more powerful braking. Revolutionised my thereto awful 105s.

You'll have to re-tape your bars though, and those groupsets just aren't as smooth.

I need to hunt down a good roadie shop near to Manchester.

[s] Eddie McGraths in Urmston. Won't take mine anywhere else now.[/s]

Actually scratch that recommendation. I quite like them. They're nice people to deal with.

It wouldn't be fair 🙂

I've always found MTB shifting to be quicker and more precise than road bike.

run 10 year old ultegra/105 9 speed combo every day, ****ing sweet if you can adjust it every few months, keep it clean and lubed. sorted. Bikes run and run!

Bregante my roadie retired neighbour said the same. Chatting to him and mentioned that he rides Alp D'uez every year too. Made my fake-roadying look tame 😀

I would 2nd Eddie McGrath. They are a good bunch of lads.

You're expectations are what they usually are.

I'd like the finest components known to man, that will last for ever. But I want to pay next to nothing for them... in fact, absolutely nothing would be even better.

Then I'd like a team of customer support people, available 24 hours, to hang in on my every word, and to drop everything to cater to my endless whining, every non-sensical whim, and ridiculous expectations, then take care of the crushingly inevitable warranty claim.

Of course, none of these components will be purchased through a traditional bike shop, as I've had them all closed down. I will be expecting all this impeccable customer support from the one remaining retailer of bike parts in the country, based in a ****ing huge mega- warehouse in the Midlands, though for tax reasons the transactions say Luxembourg, and is staffed entirely by immigrants on minimum wage, zero-hours contracts

Reading this just made my day! Brilliant binners, just brilliant!

Anyway...

Gear Shift performance on a road bike is down to 3 things, and in order of importance they are...

1. Cable Routing
2. Cable Quality
3. Groupset Quality

Tiagra runs really sweetly on a bike with full external cable routing and decent quality cables for instance. You can put Ultegra or even Dura-Ace on a bike with nasty cable routing and poor quality cables, and you might as well ride a singlespeed...

Bear in mind that a lot of high(er) end frames these days are designed with Di2 in mind, and often the cable routing is a bit of an afterthought. Contrary to popular belief, 105 5700 actually performs very well indeed on many bikes despite the under the bar tape gear cable routing, the frame will need very clean and simple cable routing though and you'll want to use high quality cables. A friend has bought a new road bike not long ago, with a very high end frame but with 105 on it to get it going (he'll likely change to Di2 in the future when he can afford to). The frame is a peach, but... The cable routing is an absolute nightmare, it's a total afterthought as the frame has obviously been designed round Di2 from the ground up. Subsequently his CX bike gets ridden most of the time on the road right now, as even with good cables, the 105 on his good bike works terribly.

Many new road bikes come with just about acceptable cable routing, and average to poor gear cables. They will feel ok on the shop floor, but a couple of wet rides later and they'll struggle to shift (if you've got the gear cables routed under the bar tape at least).

Agreed. I think all road kit feels a bit cheap next to MTB stuff. Front mechs are a prime example: Very flimsy and why do you need trim on them? MTBs don't need it. (I reckon it's only there to give the rider something to do as road riding is so boring.... )
I've worked on everything up to Di2 and I think XT wipes the floor with any road group set. It just feels nicer, shifts better and is better made.

It's all down to cable routing. Most MTB's, even with XT transmissions, will likely still have external cable routing. Give it a bike with 150mm of rear travel, internal routing, and short/sharp bends in the outer between mainframe and swingarm and the swingarm and rear mech, and it'll be terrible! I can safely say that my road bike has the best internal cable routing I've seen (I've worked on a lot), the only bends being at the BB and under the bar tape. I've seen plenty of bikes with 45 degree bends where the outer goes into the frame! I'd be strapping a full outer to the outside of the frame if that was my bike rather than suffer the poor gear performance.

In fact, my MTB (with XT M780 shifters and mechs) doesn't shift as well as my road bike (with shock horror, SRAM Force/Red and internal cable routing) as it has internal routing on the top tube and there is maybe a 15-20 degree angle where the outers go into the frame compared to the angle the inner leaves at. Subsequently, gear shifting is poor unless very high quality cables are used.

FWIW, if you've got poor cable routing and/or poor quality cables fitted to your bike and you want to make it shift better, Shimano SP41 pre-greased outer and some 1.1mm Polymer coated inners goes a long way towards fixing it. The GF's new road bike with full external routing and Tiagra 4600 with Shimano cables still feels slicker than almost anything I've tried with Ultegra and internal cable routing though, no matter how posh the cables!

EDIT: Oh, and if you think XT feels nicer and better made than all road groupsets, you've obviously not yet played with mechanical Record or Super Record! It's hard to justify the Campag price tag, but their top tier groupsets are something else quality wise, even if just like everything else, they do wear out eventually (it's just that with Campag it is eventually rather than in a few years).

Ps. (OT) Bregante what is Urmston doing to celebrate Le Tour?

'Ruff Hudds is having a French garden 😉

www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/french-garden-appears-st-georges-7356100

Cheers mboy for your input. Blindingly obvious when you have it said to you I guess!

Binners when I die you'll be there waiting 😀

Road and MTB stuff are pretty similar really, so there shouldnt' be much difference. As above - cable routing, or fitting etc.

check your cabling

did you build the bike yourself?

was it a complete boxed bike?

the new 6800 and 9000 feel terrible in both brakes and gears (I'd describe both as "gritty") unless you use the genuine Shimano Polymer cabling or similar PTFE cabling

this is what you need:

brakes - CABBC68BK, Ultegra 6800 Road brake cable set, Polymer coated inners

gears - CABGR68BK, Ultegra 6800 Road gear cable set, Polymer coated inners

£30 for each set.

Seen a number of OE builds with jagwire or similar lower spec. cable and both the gears and brakes have felt very unpleasant, with the rear derailleur suffering some shifting lag

I've tried using the new cabling on my 6700 and the difference in brake and gear performance is noticeable compared to the older SP-41 cabling

No one has mentioned the chain?

I have Ultegra 6700 on two bikes. I made the mistake of fitting a (decent) SRAM chain once and the gearchanging became almost agricultural.

Make sure you are using a genuine 6701 chain and that it's fitted the correct way round (inner and outer plates are shaped differently).

No one has mentioned the chain?

Cos it's largely inconsequential, unless worn.

I have Ultegra 6700 on two bikes. I made the mistake of fitting a (decent) SRAM chain once and the gearchanging became almost agricultural.

What you're describing there is fitting a brand new chain on a cassette and chainrings that have worn. The old chain would have shifted very well as they all wore together, but the new chain would feel agricultural to start as it was not meshing well with the cassette. Replace the cassette too and it would shift perfectly again.

Make sure you are using a genuine 6701 chain and that it's fitted the correct way round (inner and outer plates are shaped differently).

Shimano chains don't last as long as SRAM or KMC IMO. KMC make most of Shimano's and SRAM's chains for them under license, but in my experience, KMC chains always last longer and shift as well if not better than anything else.

YMMV

Whilst you are at it mboy, want to teach onion how to suck eggs?

lolzor. new mechanic gives old school mechanic advice...

colin you checked its actually a bike you fitted the chain too ? - just checking you might not know what one of them is 😀

Another problem with internal cabling: on my Roubaix the cable exits the end of the chainstay in an upwards direction then enters the derailleur in a downwards direction, meaning that any water from road or washing dribbles into those plastic end ferrules carrying dirt with it and rusting up the internal reinforcements of the outers. During the winter I have to change the cable outer at the derailleur frequently and kee the ferrules well greased with Vaseline or even lanolin to keep the water out.

Good bike shop in Manchester = Harry Hall Cycles. Ask for Guy the mechanic, who resides upstairs.