[Closed] UK built, steel hardtail?

I think I was one of the folk who contacted you albeit maybe 18 months ago.

For me it would be a Soul esque 120mm travel max though (larger than a 19'' though) but made a bit fancier (no offense meant Cy I love my Soul!)i.e fillet brazed/paragon sliders maybe?

Plenty of mud room, decent tough paint finish but sticking with std 27.2 post and 1 1/8 HT. Personally I think enlarged STs and HTs look out of place on a skinny HT.

Sub 5 lbs (not sure how realistic this is nowadays).

853 proteam or such like precious metal 😀

Like David's Curtis maybe in 26/29 versions.

[img] [/img]

I guess a premium product would command a premium price but sub £1000 would be nice.

I think UK built means a lot but to some people.

Strangely there seems to be a fair few that would happily spend £1k or more on a American frame but seemingly not consider UK builders 🙁

Question: I'm thinking that a large part of the cost, and therefore the "UK premium", is related to the manpower. That being the case, how much more would it cost to use titanium for which folk are already prepared to pay extra?

My input is pretty much just a brainfart, so you may choose to ignore me completely, but I like the idea of a well made, super tidy hardcore steel 29er. Maybe I'm being thick, but I don't think there's much of that type of thing about? (possibly for a good reason?)

Something like a Kona Honzo, but all UK made and 'prestige', sort of thing?

No idea what something like that would cost of course, but in theory I'd be happy paying a bit more for something UK made.

Steven,

I would now be looking for dropper post compatability, ie bigger seat tube 30.9/31.6. I could go on, but then it gets into the full custom frame build!
I would be prepared to pay a premium for a UK built frame.

Hi
Met you guys at Bristol (I was with the ukyouth pro, and had the same fleece as you!). I would get straight on the 29r/650 bandwagon its where the interest is(more press I reckon also), plenty of great Taiwan 26rs out there. 853 and beat Niner pricing if poss.

druidh - Member
Question: I'm thinking that a large part of the cost, and therefore the "UK premium", is related to the manpower. That being the case, how much more would it cost to use titanium for which folk are already prepared to pay extra?

I'd guess that economies of scale would make Ti very expensive for a small UK operation.

See I would say 31.6 seatpost, everyone else does 27.2, no point just making a soul, but more expensive, and I find 27.2 too flexy.

I would agree on the sliding dropouts.

-Short travel (100-120mm) and slack.
-longish top tube.
-Mud clearance!
-Normal headtube (for how it looks!)
-Easily singlespeed/alfineable, I personally am not bothered if it is by ebb, sliding dropouts or slots, but I can't see why more slotty frames don't come with brake mount inside rear triangle like the old slotty inbred/scandal.
-Would a 30.9mm seat tube look wierd on a steel frame? I suppose that would cater for a bigger range of droppy seatposts.
-I am sure you would be wise enough to consider tweaking the seat tube angles in the larger sizes. Advertising if you did this this would be good.
-not too crazy colours.
-decals under laquer as opposed to stickers.
-WARRANTY!
-can you consider selling headset, bb and seatpost with frames at near cost price to sweeten the deal? So many 'standards' these days you can't just rely on 'normal headset and layback 27.2 post to swap to new frames.

IMHO no need to add cost to the frame with bb30/press fit, crud catcher/canti bosses. Spend it on a nice shiny headtube badge instead.

I would like a pick'n'mix choice of frame sizes and geometry, wheel sizes, drop-outs, and options from bottle bosses, full-length cable routing etc, colour. 853 steel with stickers. Happy to wait a month or three after hitting buy but don't want to see a batch on CRC.

Sub £1000 would be nice so I can afford it.

If it helps, I ride a Sanderson Life, and keep looking longingly at the Shand Cycle website looking for a reason to spend money!

For me it would take 26" wheels, fork travel up to 120mm with 27.2mm seat post with one set of bottle bosses on the down tube with sliding dropouts and standard 1 1/8 external head-tube and 73mm bottom bracket.

Oh and come in 16" 🙂

Cost about £800

I'd like to see a uk built 29er which could run SS or gears, 100-120mm suspension, room for 2.4" rubber at the back, something combining the best of a Niner Sir 9 and Canfield Nimble 9. I'd pay £800ish for such a bike. That Curtis is yummy.

honourablegeorge - Member
I'd guess that economies of scale would make Ti very expensive for a small UK operation.

While I agree with the comment of oversize head tube looking a bit out of place on steel Ht the problem is forks. How much longer will fork manu's offer straight 1.125" steerers? Surely from their POV it is poor economics to keep offering straight and tapered and as I imagine the vast majority are sold as OEM for alli/carbon frames the tapered head won't go away.

I also think to maximise appeal these days you would be silly not to offer seat tube in dropper friendly size.

Ideally I think sub £1K needs to be a target price.

I assume we are talking about a production frame? Maybe made in a tubeset (or mix) in a sub 853 grade if that keeps price lower (toward the £500 bracket) and offer a semi-production in a premium grade?

As said I think now it will also need to be a 29er.

I think its difficult - to sell in quantity I think the spec has to be similar to a 456 / Soul - just see how many people own a bike of this type. But then you may have trouble with pricing, as your only USP is being 'UK made'

But then if you add nicheness to the design then you add USP but may lose sales.

To answer the original question then something like this:

For me it would take 26" wheels, fork travel up to 120mm with 27.2mm seat post with one set of bottle bosses on the down tube with sliding dropouts and standard 1 1/8 external head-tube and 73mm bottom bracket.

But for £600. Otherwise people will just buy a Soul!

Tapered head tube would be nice, not many (if any) longish travel hardtails offer that at the moment, and 953 tubing.

I'd like to see a Charge Blender-esque hardtail, with a slightly steeper seat tube so that its a bit more capable for xc.

Price- £350-400 frame only.

What's the premium worth for built in the UK?

A Soul is £480.00 so maybe £650 max? for off the peg UK built but it would have to be up to the same build quality.

Minor customisation is the key as seen above and you can charge for it.
Fixed angles in each size + different seat tube/head tube sizes and dropout options.

Full custom for a large premium.

For me the basic bike should be
Gears OR singlespeed
31.6 seat tube
44mm head tube
2 sets bottle bosses

What about collaboration with the likes of Cotic/Sanderson etc for a UK built version?

See I would say 31.6 seatpost, everyone else does 27.2, no point just making a soul, but more expensive, and I find 27.2 too flexy.

I agree. I love my Soul but I'd love it that little bit more with a 30.9mm seat tube so I could run a Reverb. A headtube that could take tapered steerers (44mm I suppose) would futureproof it a bit and allow a bit more flexibility in spec. Erm. A wide range of colour options to order like what Orange do for their full sussers would be a nice thing to have I suppose?

Personally I'd not be bothered about sliding drop outs. I do ride singlespeed, but my main bike for big days out will always have gears, and I'd prefer a really nice geared bike to have no compromises like that.

I would definitely pay a bit extra for a UK built frame, but I don't think I could quantify how much without having specific details on the frame - if it was exactly what I wanted I'd pay a significant amount more, if it was less than ideal spec-wise I'd have to think about it.

I'd like to see a 29er Steely. Not too bothered about seat post sizes nor dropout configs TBH, just something that'll be more XC 80-100mm up front than slack angled 140mm thingumybob. Made in UK, sub £800 for frame and dropouts, could be run SS or with gearidge.
Simple colourways, not BMX'ie, bit like a Pace129er I guess.

There are obvious competitors here – why not look into setting up a uk carbon frames production line. Carbon will become just as cheep as steel / Alu once the production lines step and it becomes main stream. I can see the uk based steel manufactures struggling to compete at the higher price points and all just badging up imports. There is already a certain uk manufacturer importing and badging up carbon frames that are excellent and in my view a game changer. Anticipating the move to carbon, bring the production to the uk and you would have a real niche / edge over the rest.

for an off-the-peg uk built frame, i'm not sure i'd pay more than 600. i paid 750 for a custom solitude (back in '06 though). if i were looking to spend more than that, i'd be looking at FS, tbh.

i'd also be after tapered or 44mm head tube, dropper capability, sliding (NOT slot) dropouts and 29er wheel size.

Fortunateson09 - Member
My input is pretty much just a brainfart, so you may choose to ignore me completely, but I like the idea of a well made, super tidy hardcore steel 29er. Maybe I'm being thick, but I don't think there's much of that type of thing about? (possibly for a good reason?)

You are talking about a Singular Buzzard

I want my next steel frame to have an EBB (I've been using one for 5 years with no issues and it looks so much better than the alternatives) and be belt drive compatible with Rohloff dropouts as an option. Definitely 2 sets of bottle cage mounts not worried about headtube size or seattube size. Fillet brazing would be nice too, I've an old Roberts frame hanging in the garage and despite having no paint and being a little rusty it still looks beautiful.

I think a custom colour option would be nice, if I'm going to pay a premium then I want something that looks different.

So from reading this thread I guess the only conclusion is that we all really want custom built steel. I think that's what your competing against in terms of price, you have to be significantly cheaper than going custom

The fact a frame is built in the UK would be a tie-breaker. It would have to be of same quality and price as a British designed Asian built frame. I would not pay extra just because is was entirely built in the UK. As far as I'm concerned Cotic and Dialled Bikes are British for example. Hope Technology is the "design model" fantastic products and customer service, the fact they are British built is a plus but not the deciding factor in of itself.

I see from posts above that I'm perhaps not the target market as there is no way I'd pay £600-£1000 for a hard tail frame.

All things being equal I'd prefer a British made product, I'd perhaps pay a very small premium for it but not much. (We all live in a globalised economy and there's no point pretending otherwise).

The Soul proves there is a market for steel HT frames at what I would consider a 'premium' price, and I'd think that's the price point you would need to aim for.

I do place some value on the fact that the Soul has British DNA - it was designed in the UK, and for UK conditions (rather than for instance California!) - plus support is on the end of the phone. So I guess it could be argued I already paid a premium for the UKishness of my Soul.

Hope that helps, and if you believe in it, do it.

I think the key would be some sort of "custom for a fixed price" or at leas a shopping list? I.e. the basic frame is the same price and the client can pick and [s]chose[/s] ruin the geomtery as much as they like. Then ontop of that there's a list of extras.

e.g. if you could do a 'standard' 525 hardtail for £600 then people would probably consider buying it. You could then have a list of options,
£100 for 725,
£200 for 853,
bottle bosses £30,
track ends £20,
sliding dropouts or EBB £100,
44mm headtube £30,
tapered £100,
etc etc etc.

The only problem is I can see a lot of people having sub 4lb 853 29ers being built with 66deg headtubes and huge oversized headtubes and generaly being horrible!

The fact a frame is built in the UK would be a tie-breaker. It would have to be of same quality and price as a British designed Asian built frame. I would not pay extra just because is was entirely built in the UK. As far as I'm concerned Cotic and Dialled Bikes are British for example. Hope Technology is the "design model" fantastic products and customer service, the fact they are British built is a plus but not the deciding factor in of itself.

I see from posts above that I'm perhaps not the target market as there is no way I'd pay £600-£1000 for a hard tail frame.

Well put.

Julian wilson +1

Spot on, no one needs a dropper post on a HT, normal headtube, non of that "on trend" bent top tubes and make it a 29er and i'm in, where do i sign?

My wishlist is: beautiful (tough) finish, 26in wheels, 853 or similar, light as poss, singlespeed-specific, 27.2 seat tube, standard head tube, matching rigid fork.

However... I know I wouldn't pay what it would cost. I wonder how many of those above would.

Reading through the spec-lists above, I'm reminded of the famous Henry Ford quote: [i]If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse"[/i].

Spot on, no one needs a dropper post on a HT, normal headtube, non of that "on trend" bent top tubes and make it a 29er and i'm in, where do i sign?

On the Singular Swift or On-One websites?

I'd argue that a dropper post is far more use on a hardtail than a suspension bike though, riding with the seat up on the pitch is possible, riding the Swift the same way is really hard work!

Is it the camel that is said to be designed by committee? Whichever animal it is, but lets stick with camel, I believe you now have the MTB equivalent.

The answer being "Don't ask people what they want".

Moon on a stick some of the replies.

thisisnotaspoon is spot-on in my opinion..... is being British-built enough of a USP alone to be sucessful in such a competetive marketplace?

Personally I doubt it.

I think your real USP is that manufacturing your frames locally would give you the ability to make several similar models (eg: with diferent dropout options?) and allow customes to spec their bikes with extras like thisisnotaspoon has listed. Add to that things like custom paint options (see people like Nicolai) a gold standard warantee, free powdercoating after 5 years? What about offering some "exclusive" hope coloured parts to match some of your more interesting colours?

Lots of things tht you could do.... but it's all down to the maths.

Drop outs - Black Cat swing style, similar to whats on my Salsa El Mar, easliy convertable from geared to single or t'other way.

I'd argue that a dropper post is far more use on a hardtail than a suspension bike though, riding with the seat up on the pitch is possible, riding the Swift the same way is really hard work!

I'd rather have a 27.2 post (whoever said above that they are too flexy has either too much post showing or is a bit lardy) than a heavy rattly dropper that needs servicing every 5 mins or is constantly going back for warranty work, just get your arse back behind the saddle like everyone used to.

A custom Swift would be lovely you are right, maybe a steel one as light as my Pegasus ?

I have a Robin Mather Steel hardtail (bought in 2004) and is still my main mtb and plenty of grins. 🙂 It's also very versatile.

I think 2 frames:
29er and 26er (or 650b?!)
swinging drops (paragon sliders look gash) like black sheep or salsa.
2 sets of bottle mounts.
crud mounts.
120 max fork on 29, 140 max on 26. but built for adjustable forks.
30.9 seat tube for more dropper post options.
rack mounts.
clearance for 2.4 tyres.
hard paint coat.

Options:
hub gear guides.
split seat stay. for belt drive.

I think 'off the peg' UK built frames should cost around 650 mark. Whether that would tempt people over the soul I'm unsure.

If you can match soul pricing with a lower grade steel (725 or similar instead of 853) then I would be swayed to UK build.

Yep, that's just about every combination and permutation covered.

I'm not convinced there's a market that will allow you to make money / a sustainable margin. Up to 600 you're competing with mass market frames. Over 1000 it's custom. That 600-1000 area is too expensive for those looking at perfectly good off the shelf Taiwan made steel, and probably not "custom" enough for those who were prepared to spend over 1000.

You'd need some USP to pull people from either end. Not sure what that is. Having said that, Speedvagen have got it off to a tee - and at a premium price.

I'm guessing a price point on par with your other stock frames? Around £1K, for that I'd love to see a fillet brazed steel 29er, on trend geo( tight back end/slackish), dropper and tapered HT, possibly with upgradeable rear dropouts all built on the lighter side rather than burly. Matching forks would be a boon, either rigid or colour coded sus. At 1k your beyond funtional and some nice touches would need to be included, internal routing or something.

29 inches
Split chainstays or dropouts, to allow for belt drive.
Slotted dropouts for single speed.
Cable guides to support full length cable outers, or internally routed cables, to help reduce cable rub.
Forward facing seatpost slot, to reduce water ingress.
Larger seatpost diameter, to support wider range of dropper posts.
Two sets of bottle mounting bosses within the frame triangle.
Decent mud clearance on the chainstays.

Never mind mountain bikes, I've just seen that cross bike of yours Mr Shand - schweet! 😀

I'd rather have a 27.2 post (whoever said above that they are too flexy has either too much post showing or is a bit lardy) than a heavy rattly dropper that needs servicing every 5 mins or is constantly going back for warranty work, just get your arse back behind the saddle like everyone used to.

My reverb is none of those things, well, maybe it's 200g more than a thompson, but it's never rattled or needed a warrenty replacement or a service.

On the 2nd point I did used to use a QR, then I went to not bothering (took a while to re lear how to do stuff like jump/pump with the saddle up), then back to QR (which made life easier goig downhill), the to a reverb, which had all the benifits of a QR with the lack of faff of a bolt up collar.

And why would you want a custom steel pegasus if you already have a pegasus?

Selling direct instead of via dealers should get back some of the price differential compared to conventionally distributed models of course.
I'd hope £500 would be achievable for something mini production with "nice tubing".

953

I'd rather have a 27.2 post (whoever said above that they are too flexy has either too much post showing or is a bit lardy) than a heavy rattly dropper that needs servicing every 5 mins or is constantly going back for warranty work, just get your arse back behind the saddle like everyone used to.

Bollocks - we are not living in the early 90s anymore.

Try living somewhere rocky rather than your mincey flatlands..

Manufactures have shown they do not want to (or cant) make 27.2 dropper posts with a decent drop, so frames have changed to suit

And why would you want a custom steel pegasus if you already have a pegasus?

that must be the silliest thing i've read here for a while (n+1 etc)

oh wait this beats it

Bollocks - we are not living in the early 90s anymore.

Try living somewhere rocky rather than your mincey flatlands..

another riding "god" (who confesses to not be able to ride with a normal seatpost and has bitten deeply into the latest "must have" hype driven by manufacturors) has spoken, i bow down to your tremendous talent 🙄

If i was in the market, which to be honest i am not, happy with my current bike and no way i can justify a new MTB on the usage the current one is getting, i would be wanting something around the 4lb mark, 27.2mm seatpost. steep angles, short wheel base. Base it on 650b wheels. cowl type drop outs, etc

Think Ritchey P21 brought up to date.

Seeing as we're all having a go:

Rear caliper between the stays.
853.
Two bottle cages.
Crud Catcher mounts.
Forward facing seat tube slot.
Optional rack/proper mudguard mounts.
120 mm fork compatable. A nice rigid steel fork with curved blades as standard. Not sure if you can do curved blades with disc mounts, but that's what I'd like!
Huge mud clearance.
Not fussed about seat/headtube size.
A hub gear ready version.
A 29er that fits shortarses, as an option.
How about lugs? I like lugs.
And please, please don't paint it brown.

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard & rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.
Ta.

I'd prob go with 30.9mm if it rides well. I certainly wouldn't sacrifice ride quality for people who want a dropper post.

the ability to have SS and gears on the same frame would suit more people.

44mm headtube.

Then nice colour scheme and metal headbadge and your sorted.

Not arsed where its made as long as they know what they are doing, (i'm not a welder racist)

I think £500-£600 is a fair price for all of the above.

might have been easier to say if the cotic soul was UK manufactured would you buy it??

I agree with Brant but hes on the money and it can be done in the UK.

Also consider if your trying to carve a niche in the framebuilding world will becoming a production guy devalue your brand.

Pricing and quality need to be up with DeKerf, Spot Brand, Independent Fabrocations. Pricing ideally cheaper but not by much.

29er, 2 bottle cages, some uk stuff like crud bosses, mud clearance, singlespeedability.

Paint- a lot better than Niner.

Some sort of optional gimmick like bent tubes (beach cruiser style etc). May be nice.

Headtube stay on trend.

BB standard 68 or 73.

Elevated chainstays!

brant - Member
Selling direct instead of via dealers should get back some of the price differential compared to conventionally distributed models of course.
I'd hope £500 would be achievable for something mini production with "nice tubing".

I did investigate, but I couldn't make it work, unless, I suspect, I took on a frame builder in house and managed it ourselves.

Mr Shand does torch wielding himself. So he has a direct line to the customer if he sells direct that I think this can work for him at a reasonable price point.

Right Price £499

30.9 seat tube
68 deg head angle
73 deg seat angle
44mm head set
swoppable drop outs allowing maxle , QR and single speed
5- 6lb weight
ISCG tabs for 1x9/10
good solid powder coat finish
sizes 15" , 17" , 19 " , 21"
head tube 5"
73mm BB
26" wheels

thank-you, brant, for confirming it was not 'd' 🙂

Mr Shand does torch wielding himself.

Smaller 'production' runs by a small team [i]might[/i] help - again, I forget, but there was a video 'walk-though' of a USA titanium shop kicking around?
A small team (thinking TIG here, not brazing and filing) may also open the door to the 'boutique' (one off) offering and faster delivery than current UK boutique suppliers?

Evidently, I know sweet fanny adams about all this, just would like to see a (small) element of manufacturing return to Blighty.... I'd be interested, at the right price....

Oh..... thinking out loud, again....
Saracen - Kili Flyer - brazed and all that but (not made in the UK?) currently appearing at huge price reductions - victims of brand snobbery and / or being too expensive when compared to the likes of The Soul? Worth bearing in mind....

Small teams require employing! Do it yourself and the overhead is lower and you're earning for your time, not adding margin onto their time. I'm far too happy with my Cotic Soul to need a new frame but in an ideal world it would be like a Soul but with an 83mm BB, 30.9 seat tube, steeper seat tube, no front mech guides, ISCG tabs and no bottle mounts. But who's going to buy that?!

Blimey what a large collection of stupid requests and blindly optimistic pricing

Although This is hardly a challenge is it, I've seen better fabrication from blind monkeys!

A Soul peg UK built but it would have to be up to the same build quality.

And having a couple of nice tubes and then a cheap cro mo back end a nice frame does not make!

another riding "god" (who confesses to not be able to ride with a normal seatpost and has bitten deeply into the latest "must have" hype driven by manufacturors) has spoken, i bow down to your tremendous talent

Or I could be making a wild opinion on what equipment somebody else other than yourself might need or not need. Or what might suit or be a damn good idea in somebody else local terrain and riding area.......

And for the record I don't own one, but wish you could get a better selection of dropper posts in 27.2.

I'd be happy with a Dialled Alpine, but with a dropper compatible seat tube and a future proofed head tube. In the meantime I'll ride the one I have.

i've got mine thanks

The doctor
Love it. No actual input just critical of others.
STW at it's best.

Droppers are popular despite their flaws. Look passed the Willy waving and you will limit the market by not having a compatible seat tube. And manufacturers have given up trying to make them in 27.2 which is understandable.

Those willing to pay a UK premium will be limited- but maybe enough to sustain a limited run manufacturer. I own an Orange Alpine, a Dialled Alpine and my next motor bike will probably be a Triumph, not because they are British but because they are outstanding products that compete on equal terms in quality and price, the Union flag is a bonus (yes I know the Dialled is FE built).

Thanks for all the input so far, keep it coming. Just wanted to address a couple of points while I'm here:

Question: I'm thinking that a large part of the cost, and therefore the "UK premium", is related to the manpower. That being the case, how much more would it cost to use titanium for which folk are already prepared to pay extra?

You're right, the majority of cost for us is labour. In theory, using Ti wouldn't necessarily increase the cost by a huge amount but there are other costs to consider. Finish, increased wear on tooling etc. Having said that, the thing that puts me off Ti is the unpredictable availability of quality material in the specs we need. I looked at this a couple of years ago and it may be better now than it was. For a small company like us, we're always treading a fine line between being able to get decent pricing on quantities of material while still having a sensible cashflow outlook. Buying a years worth of Ti tubing just so we can be sure of availability doesn't make sense for us.

I would like a pick'n'mix choice of frame sizes and geometry, wheel sizes, drop-outs, and options from bottle bosses, full-length cable routing etc, colour. 853 steel with stickers. Happy to wait a month or three after hitting buy but don't want to see a batch on CRC.

I think the key would be some sort of "custom for a fixed price" or at leas a shopping list? I.e. the basic frame is the same price and the client can pick and chose ruin the geomtery as much as they like. Then ontop of that there's a list of extras.

This is pretty much what we do with our production 'cross and allroad frames.

There are obvious competitors here – why not look into setting up a uk carbon frames production line.

Basically, because that's not what we do. Our facility at the moment is to produce steel frames. There would little crossover in producing CF frames. We'd also need to bring in outside skills. But the main reason is that you need to believe in what you do. I'm not a huge CF basher but it doesn't float my boat.

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard, rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.

Like [url= http://www.shandcycles.com/frames/allroad/stoater-gallery/?stwthread ]this[/url]?

Also consider if your trying to carve a niche in the framebuilding world will becoming a production guy devalue your brand.

I'm happy to be the production guy if it means I can stay in business!

My opinion based on riding an Orange P7 and a rock lobster is this

strong build to cope with moments of insanity

tapered or better still 44 mm headtube to allow 'bargain' forks to be sourced or forks currently owned to be fitted

one piece rear mech cable for british weather

iscg tabs for singlespeed or 1 x 9

Disc only with the 'c' clip mounts to avoid having to detach the caliper and thread the hose

Changeable dropout system to allow flexibility, perhaps investigate 12mm as an option to allow wheels to swap between other bikes?

down tube crud guard mounts (these are fantastic on my p7)

forward facing seat tube slots

no cables run on underside of down tube

as for seat tube diameters i feel you'd get more business looking to go 30.9 or more to cater for the new dropper seatpost.

That Stoater, Mr Shand looks a beaut, I've nothing more to add 😀

Actually.... I've a Dailled PA and love it, I think my ideal steel hardtail would have fillet brazing and be a tad lighter..

An Orange P7 with a 30.9 seat tube for me would be an ideal steel hard tail, I really liked mine , and it would have been perfect with a dropper post, I would still have it if I hadn't lost my job and needed to pay the bills 😥

Those drop outs on the Stoater look great, are they the new Paragon Machine Works ones? How do they compare with the Black Cat style in adjustment length?

That Stoater is a lovely machine. Price is a little on the high side esp once you have added the drop out onto the cost.

something based around 100 - 120mm forks
Slackish head angle
Lowish BB
Short back end
ISCG tabs
31.6mm seat tube
About 5lbs in weight
44mm head tube

So it would be lightish, strongish and fastish up hill and down dales.

Basically just a cotic bfe with a different head tube, slightly slacker head angle, a lower BB and a touch lighter.

If you are going to add adjustable dropouts, use the DMR swapout system. I wouldnt buy a frame like a P7 cos they have about a lb's worth of metal bolted to the dropouts just so some muppets can run them single speed! Plus they look awful.

shandcycles - Member

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard, rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.

Like this?

Yep, [url= http://www.shandcycles.com/frames/allroad/stoater-overview/ ]that[/url] looks perfect.

As soon I can convince Ms Spanner to go back on the streets I'll be in touch. 🙂

davidtaylforth - Member
Basically just a cotic bfe with a different head tube, slightly slacker head angle, a lower BB and a touch lighter.

Question then becomes what is it worth extra in financial/marketing terms for a UK designed/UK built HT versus a UK designed/Taiwan built HT?

For me, a BFe in the latter camp at £300 would make anything in the former camp that cost more than £500 too expensive unless it had another massive USP going for it.

slainte ❓ rob

Souldrummer - next Alpine will have XX44 Reynolds 631 head tube and dropper compatible seat tube.

Bellerophon - Prince Albert Classic 853?

custom uk made frames seems to be a growing market especially now there's the Bristol bespoked show and there are now a lot of people who have probably done the full suspension thing and are willing to pay for something that is a bit special. A good uk example is enigma i think there steel frame is about £ 800

@ mike-at-dialledbikes - blimey that IS good news. Better start saving. If only all my wishes came true that easily!!!

I'd like to know what people would want from a UK built frame

Do you even care where the frame is built and would you pay a premium for something built here in the UK?

What kind cost they'd expect to pay?

Shame that "Stoater" wouldn't take a suspension fork.....

Aye