[Closed] Tried to support my local bike shop.....failed

scaredypants - Member
[i] Didn't Shimano go from PTFE to polymer 'cos it was betterer? [/i]
PFTE is a polymer

Agreed - but not all polymer is PTFE and I thought they'd stajrted using a non-PTFE polymer and changed the name accordingly

I bought the Jagwire kit for the compassionless brake cables

Yeah, that's all I would buy them for ;O)

In my experience Sram coated inners tend to flake their black coating off. Shimano black coating wears, never seen it flake.

On sti's that rely on a non standard inner cable, no inner will work as well as a Shimano Sil - Tec. They can make the world of difference, sometimes even with sp40/41 end caps and outer casing it's still not possible to get super slick shifting. I've spent money years ago on road gear cable kits recommended by Shimano for my Ultegra's and it still wasn't right. Moved onto Sil-Tec's, problem solved. The road kits (RRP around 34 quid) weren't the exact replacement for the Ultegra's.. I think this was half the battle.

I've been offered Jagwire cables and hydro hose kits free of charge from a Jagwire honcho to try and get my onto them not long after fitting an XTR cable kit on my bike, which was working sweet as a nut 6 months into it's life but I had to refuse as the cable's were working perfectly. I had no reason to remove something for no reason, or giving myself extra work. Grabbing freebies just for the hell of it wasn't going to happen either.

Another thing with Jagwire, they're fitted to so many bikes from new. Straight out the box it's common to find the casing split due to how brittle it is compared to Shimano SP. This can cause extra work for mechanics. Bit of a pain for the workshop and again, more warranty work. You will never find SP casing spit due to how brittle it is out the box.

Like Peter says, beware of some of the cheaper brands as they often come in something like 1900 or 2000mm lengths which can sometimes be a bit short for some routing. Yet another workshop mare when your boss is paying you to fit internal cables through a frame.. only to find it won't reach the flippin mech once you get there.

Is that a good enough answer?

what does it have to do with you being an LBS mechanic. I have used many different sets of cables and I once did a weeks work experience in a bike shop. Black PTFE coated are the best. FACT

Best for?

[quote=docgeoffyjones ]I once did a weeks work experience in a bike shop.That's it then. I bow before your experience.

No longer use lb shops to be honest. Unless it's a warranty thing.

Got a bit fed up with the poor service and poor work done.

Ironically the only "lbs" I use occasionally is Halfords.

Why? Well, so far the few jobs they've done have been fine. Fitting headset cups/ cutting steerer tube etc.

Biggest reason is this however. If something goes wrong there is always a manager at the store to complain to. The manager will also be aware that he has his own area/regional manager above him etc etc.

Something goes a wrong at Halfords you really can "take it further".

Something goes wrong at your true "lbs" and the shop owner says "tough".... What can you do? Small claims court at best I suppose.

So mad as it seems, Halfords is my lbs for the jobs I don't want to do/ can't do/ not got the tools for, stuff. Even the occasional spare if even crc or Amazon prime isn't fast enough.

what does it have to do with you being an LBS mechanic

No pleasing you is there? Wrong time of the month is it? 😛
In short, how do you think I get to try so many brands of cable? I've worked in 3 shops, all used different brands..... Get it now? 🙂

Martinxyz - I'd not noticed my spelling mistake there, oops! 🙂

Black inner shows up better in transparent outer 😉

I remember when everyone on here used to ride singlespeeds.

FWIW I either use shimano or Jagwire. Shimano if I just want black outer, Jagwire if I want a colour.

I have never noticed a difference beyond new stuff works beetter than worn out stuff.

There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process. Seen it quite a few times, even in well-regarded bike shops.

There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process.

Thank Allah it's not like that around here.
Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?

I once went into my LBS to ask if they had a tandem rear mech cable for my Big Dummy as the existing cable had just snapped. They told me they did not stock tandem gear cables, as there was very little demand for them.

As this was intuitively true, I went home and ordered several from a mail-order place. They only had black ones, funnily enough. I don't think the coating broke down, but I'm not saying it never happens.

🙂

No pleasing you is there? Wrong time of the month is it?
In short, how do you think I get to try so many brands of cable? I've worked in 3 shops, all used different brands..... Get it now?

Fitting lots of cables to other people’s bikes is not testing something. Fair play you have fitted lots of different ones to your bike, I have fitted lots to my bikes too. The point I am making is your opinion is irrelevant of you being a bike shop mechanic.

My original post had little to do with a technical specification more about how it upsets me when people who work in bike shops treat people who don't work in bike shops, or customers as they are known, like they know nothing and are more interested in showing off there own knowledge......I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........

Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?

I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........

[img] [/img]

There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process. Seen it quite a few times, even in well-regarded bike shops.

Chapeau. Remember that Surly ode to bike mechanic which basically flipped the typical customer off?

LBS staff/mechanics just sell what they're told to, that is their job after all.
I'd consider the opinion of the owner of an independent bike shop or business, you know - the one who actually makes the decisions but a hired spanner monkey, naaah - just hands and feet no matter what they might like to think 😆

Something goes a wrong at Halfords you really can "take it further".

Dear oh dear.

My original post had little to do with a technical specification more about how it upsets me when people who work in bike shops treat people who don't work in bike shops, or customers as they are known, like they know nothing and are more interested in showing off there own knowledge.....

You mean "their".

I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........

Oops.

Fair enough OP. Would annoy me too.

Thank Allah it's not like that around here.
Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?

They might post if they were told that the flavour didn't exist, and anyway isn't tasty, and they should enjoy x flavour more instead!

Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?

No. But if that person walked into a specialist yoghurt shop and was told they didn't and then the specialist yoghurt shop, being a specialist, did bugger all to help, and then he was made to feel crap for even asking - they might.

There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way

This. Lots of it being evidenced on this thread too.

The customer has asked for black cables. He's gone to a bike shop to get or source black cables. He's gone away thinking his local bike shop won't help him and I guess will go online. Cue one unhappy customer, one immediate lost sale for the bike shop and no doubt many future sales they could have had had they established the relationship with him and tried to help him out.

What if he'd asked for white-wall tiles? Purple anodised spokes? Maybe it's the look he's going for on the bike

"I'd like some white walled tyres please"
"ooh you don't want those"
"I do actually"
"No, you want these ones. I've fitted them to a million different things and worked in lots of places and have put lots of tyres on things. You want these
"I don't. I want white walled tyres"

Actually - typing that back, it reminds me of conversations I've had in Kwik Fit.

[img] [/img]

Di2 anyone? 🙄

Okay, kidding aside, there's always a fine line between patronising someone and honestly helping them with the benefit of experience. Would you really want a LBS that just took your money and didn't tell you if you were buying the wrong thing?

Depends if by "wrong" you mean completely unsuitable for what they need or in your opinion not the best choice but would do the job.
Without demeaning the trade too much, it is only bicycles after all - quite the opposiste of rocket science

I want a black one because I like black ones I think they look better than silver

LBSbod: We don't have them in stock. Would you like me to see where I can get them?
Doc: Yeah that'd be great cheers
LBSbod: Ok, we can get them in a couple of days. Anything else you want?
Doc: ooh yeah. I need some white wall tyres and purple anodised nipples.
LBSbod: I haven't got those either but I can put them on the same order. Do you want them fitting?
Doc: Yeah great!
LBSbod: Great.

Exactly, if a customer walks in and just asks for brake cables, that would warrant a bit of advice and guidence.. If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.

Without demeaning the trade too much, it is only bicycles after all - quite the opposiste of rocket science

No, not offended in the slightest. <sniff>

Bicycles are interesting - yes, they are superficially simple compared to, say, a car (or a space rocket), but the devil is in the detail. Fixing a car is easy - you find the part that doesn't work using a flowchart (or by plugging in a computer), you replace that part. You don't debate the differences between steel brake tubes, alloy brake tubes, teflon-lined brake tubes etc in great detail. Because most of the time your choice is the standard part, or maybe a copy.

From the sound of the above most arent regular customers. I have a good relationship with my LBS. he knows me and understands what and when it's needed. It's a two way street. I also buy from the Internet. The key is being a regular customer. I'm sure it benfits us both

Okay, kidding aside, there's always a fine line between patronising someone and honestly helping them with the benefit of experience. Would you really want a LBS that just took your money and didn't tell you if you were buying the wrong thing?

Well, it partly depends how it's done. I've genuinely seen LBS workers looking/sounding gleeful at the opportunity to show off the fact that they are better informed than the customer. I've also seen said LBS workers come out with stuff I know for a fact to be incorrect. I've seen it more than once (and I don't go in LBS that often).

If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason...

Maybe that specific reason is that some random person on an internet forum said black cables make you go faster or something 😉

No, not offended in the slightest. <sniff>

I hope not Ben - For what it's worth, your stuff at Kinetics is leaps and bounds beyond the High Street type LBS and I can see how it warrants serious customer discussion.
A bit different to someone who "knows their onions" waffling on about how many metres of gear cable they've fitted in their career 😉

While the reasoning may be off, and the expectation that the LBS hold stock of *everything* is a little off, being made to feel small is just downright rude.

I am giving up on two of my three local LBS's.

Once charges above RRP or only RRP on everything. I wanted a pair of grips, any MTB grips - the only ones in were Peaty lock ons, at £29.99 😯 I needed some disc brake pads, they had, but £21. Cables, £12. Eldest OAb lost his multitool, and was off for a ride the next morning. Only one with chain tool on were £28+ upwards. That is checking and using two bike shops I pass on the way to work - there is one in town that is better value, but did not have stock of gear cable or (any) mtb stem last I tried...

I agree it is difficult, and indeed I live in a wealthy part of the place, so the local LBS cater for that market. We also have an industry that is for ever upping the cost of every last item as 'faster' and 'better'.

At least they do not make me feel small or daft mind - they are very helpful and welcoming. I just struggle with the costs that are soooo high.

Phone call to me saying brake cables and outers need replacing, and new bar tape - I decline, and say I want what I asked for. Repeat of phone call an hour or two later, same response - just do what we agreed on workshop ticket.

Bicycles are interesting - yes, they are superficially simple compared to, say, a car (or a space rocket), but the devil is in the detail. Fixing a car is easy - you find the part that doesn't work using a flowchart (or by plugging in a computer), you replace that part. You don't debate the differences between steel brake tubes, alloy brake tubes, teflon-lined brake tubes etc in great detail. Because most of the time your choice is the standard part, or maybe a copy.

Indeed, the difference between wanting a faster bike and a faster car is one has to get more efficient through all sorts of niggly details, the other has to have a large engine fitted to a small chassis/body. Bikes do suit people who are fundamentally obsessive far better.

(Back on the original topic IME XTR/Dura-Ace cables are the best - although the PTFE doesn't make a massive difference it has never gummed up and they do last slightly longer than mid range ones. That said I had some fully sealed PTFE ones a long while back and they lasted about 3 wet rides before gumming up...)

If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.

Tricky one this. Having been on the other side of the counter (not bike shops) you do get people insisting they want something that you know they really don't (e.g. a windproof for standing around in the rain) but you can only go so far in making suggestions.
I've also been the customer wondering why, after telling somebody what I'm after, I'm listening to them tell me why I really want something else instead of helping me out.
I guess it's a skill telling someone who knows what they're talking about and is making an informed decision from 'that guy'.

If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.

Tricky one this. Having been on the other side of the counter (not bike shops) you do get people insisting they want something that you know they really don't (e.g. a windproof for standing around in the rain) but you can only go so far in making suggestions.
I've also been the customer wondering why, after telling somebody what I'm after, I'm listening to them tell me why I really want something else instead of helping me out.
I guess it's a skill telling someone who knows what they're talking about and is making an informed decision from 'that guy'.

Really not that difficult imo. If I ask for apples don't tell me I should have oranges. Tell me you have no apples, but you have some lovely oranges if I'm interested. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.

If I just ask for some fruit then offer me whatever you like. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.

If I say I need a little help (and I often do in the LBS where I don't mind paying a little more for the instant delivery) then take me through a process that identifies my needs and offers me a solution. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.

I know that you want my money, but this way you will get more of it in the long run...

A (slightly) off-topic question for those here who work in bike shops.

Is there a rapid distribution system for bike parts in the same way that motor dealerships have? If I've a problem with my car, I'll ring up the garage saying "x has gone wrong", their response is along the lines of "what model and year is it? I'll order the bits, bring it in tomorrow morning". This often applies to dealerships as well - they simply don't carry the stock of all the parts they need for every model - the cost and space required would be prohibitive. So you get the "motor factors" who do the intermediate stocking and distribution.

Similarly a bike shop, especially a smaller one, can't afford to have every single component in stock there are just too many.

Really not that difficult imo. If I ask for apples don't tell me I should have oranges. Tell me you have no apples, but you have some lovely oranges if I'm interested. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.

I would expect a good LBS to say "sorry, we don't stock apples because oranges are much better in our experience, but if you really want apples, even though they're worse and cost more, we can order some in for you".

No, is the simple answer. There are lots of distributors, from very small one-man companies importing obscure parts to big ones like Madison and Fishers handling Shimano and SRAM. Some distributors, like all the big ones, are very quick, usually getting parts to a shop next day, others are slower, and of course the distributors can run out.

There are two problems:

- Unless the order is big enough, the shop has to pay postage. Order one rear mech, and that's your profit gone - and that's assuming the customer is happy to pay RRP. So shops often bunch up orders until they have enough to get carriage paid.

- Bike parts change all the time, and there's a massive range of them - often it's hard to find parts for things more than a few years old, especially if they're obscure. Band-on MTB mech, anyone?

I only use LBS for stuff I don't have time or patience for. They are very helpful, happy for you to take in stuff off CRC and ask them to fit. Free plug for Picton Cycles. I dont expect them to stock everything there a shop not a warehouse.

@bencooper

Ta for that.

Hadn't considered the cost of carriage, not sure how the motor industry handles it unless there are regular deliveries to the area so it's not a big issue. Possibly when the system was set up and not every garage bought in to it then there would have been a cost passed on. Understandable to pool all the orders on say a weekly basis.

That's the problem with changing "standards" 🙄

The motor industry has far less of a problem with RRP - want to go buy car parts online? Sure, knock yourself out, you'll still likely need a garage to fit them and they won't want to fit parts they haven't supplied.

Your only choice unless you're a serious home tinkerer is to take your car to the garage and pay whatever they ask.

For the LBS, it's difficult when your customers can often get parts faster and cheaper from CRC than you can through the official distributors.

I know what you mean - when getting my HT built up I could get a Reverb cheaper on-line than the LBS could at trade! The LBS was up-front about it though, he said as much before I placed my order and that he'd fit it.

For the LBS, it's difficult when your customers can often get parts faster and cheaper from CRC than you can through the official distributors.

Could the LBS use CRC instead?

Buying one cable is hardly supporting your LBS is it ! Sounds like the sort of item a shop would be well advised to buy in as required (which is the business model many many different businesses have been using for years).

As an aside how much does such a cable cost ? I can't imagine the shop,would be making more than £2 on it and if it's a rarely bought item it makes zero sense to have it in stock