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I'm re-doing the last two weeks of Medium Short Power Build, as a run up to Christmas which is then rest time for the CX race I've entered on the 27th, then I start speciality XCO on Jan 1.
I did Foersster again yesterday - 27 50 on 50 off sat 125% and sailed through it, physically and mentally. My legs were feeling the finally 10s of the last few intervals though. In last weeks rest week I did all the sweet spot sessions with either the front wheel raised a really low cadence (70-80rpm) for strength or st high cadence (105 - 115rpm) in the TT position.
So my form continues, I've a 135k club ride this weeekend that although a "social pace" will inevitably contain enough climbs, leadouts or chases foe me to get a measure of where I am.
Interesting times!
The training value of commuting miles has been discussed a bit in the last couple of TrainerRoad podcasts. Essentially, I think, their view can be summarised along the following lines (but have a listen if you want to avoid the risk that I got the wrong end of the stick!):
It's generally hard to do anything structured or targeted during commutes because of all of the external factors and constraints (such as terrain, traffic etc.). This makes it tricky to effectively swap a workout from a structured training plan for a commute, and still derive the exact same training benefit. (Of course, though, that doesn't mean that you'll get *no* training benefit from the commute-training). If, instead, you try to *add* commuting time to a more structured plan then the main thing to watch out for is that if you spend energy on those commutes then that can very easily affect your ability to properly adhere to your training plan, and therefore get the intended training benefit from it. So, for optimum use of a TrainerRoad plan, you would prioritise the quality (TR) workouts, and treat the commutes as training top-ups, to add some TSS at mostly low intensity so that you get some physical benefit from the work that you're doing, and some psychological benefit from having a nice time outside, but not at the expense of the serious stuff inside.
Of course, if you don't have the time to do both a TR plan *and* commuting then I guess you just do what you prefer - 'optimal' training might well not be the most important thing to you..
On another note, in case anyone is interested in my turbo waffles, here's a snippet from my FTP test yesterday, that shows how much the resistance of my Vortex varies as it warms up during an interval. This is the second 8 minute test interval, where the turbo is in resistance mode (so not being 'smart'). As you can see, I maintained a very consistent cadence, and I didn't change gear throughout, so the wheel speed would have been very constant but the power (recorded from my Powertap hub) drifted down significantly (getting on for 10% difference over the 8 minutes):
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I think next time I'll either start the interval at a lower cadence and leave myself room to steadily increase that (e.g. from 90 rpm to 100ish) to maintain a constant power, or plan a gear change. I suppose I could muck about with the resistance settings so that I plan to change from 15T to 14T to minimise the jump. Possibly overthinking it now. 🙂
That is a PITA, gray - why not just ride to your power tap? My kurt doesn't drift at all after warming up - and virtual power tracks real power so well that I almost wondered why I bought a real power meter (although the set up is much easier - don't need to be quite as worried about tyre pressure/roller tension etc.)
I was sick and really struggling for a couple of weeks so knocked it on the head and had a rest week a couple of weeks ago. I've restarted sweetspot base 2, having had to revise my FTP downward 🙁
But, back into it now and had a good session last night (Donner, 3 * 12 threshold intervals) after a podium at last weekend's XC race which made me think that things must be going better than I thought 🙂
Possibly overthinking it now.
🙂 Just change gear!
(getting on for 10% difference over the 8 minutes)
Mag trainers seem particularly bad for this. Saw much the same thing from a couple of my old mag trainers. Easily two or three sprockets smaller at the back for the same PM power over the course of a workout. Must be a PITA if you're relying on wheel speed derived power (if you're even aware of it!)
My kurt doesn't drift at all after warming up
Probably said this before, but the Kinetic trainers are very well designed to minimise this sort of thing. Probably the most consistent wheel driven turbos (at least the ones with the fluid unit, don't know about the smart ones.)
The kurt feels really good too (as I've also probably said before!). Although sometimes I miss the mindlessness of my old imagic set up - you've got to concentrate on the power a lot more when nothing is stopping you drifting off (down!).
Ps nice bump in FTP by the looks of that Gray!
Did my first FTP test on the new Tacx Flux last night. On the first effort (I do the 8 min test) when it switches from Erg mode to resistance mode the trainer put the resistance REALLY HIGH and my legs nearly fell off. Lesson learned, pre-set the resistance a bit lower for those efforts.
Gray, of course TR are going to be dismissive of commuter training (I listen to their podcasts) their entire business is predicated on people using turbos. Watch them change their stance when they start to include outdoor riding functionality to their product (which they are developing).
I commute in the week and race CX weekends. Not used my Turbo in 2 years (when I had a broken arm). Currently in top 10 in my cat in Central League. Guy who's around 3rd also commutes and is battling ex Elite mtb racers. My other half won overall women last year and is leading woman this year, all off commuting and recreational riding. We'll be racing in the middle of Festive 500 which are 2 contradictory goals!
Not being anti TR or anti Turbo but have seen people giving up outdoor riding for the turbo which seems perverse- is the point to get fitter at the sport/hobby you love doing, or just to have some impressive numbers to quote?
Ps nice bump in FTP by the looks of that Gray!
It's possibly real, but kind of made-up. The previous FTP setting was just guesswork - have been doing some sessions without the Powertap after a bit of a layoff, so just set the FTP conservatively based on feel. This is my first FTP test in about a year.
I also have to twiddle the resistance a bit at the start of the first 8 minute test interval.
In other news, had a CT last week to check on my insides. This looks kind of cool / grim:
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Blimey! My metalwork pales into insignificance...
In other news, had a CT last week to check on my insides. This looks kind of cool / grim:
😯
Not being anti TR or anti Turbo but have seen people giving up outdoor riding for the turbo which seems perverse- is the point to get fitter at the sport/hobby you love doing, or just to have some impressive numbers to quote?
Interesting post. Outdoor riding is different to turbo. I'd choose the former most times as too much turbo time at the expense of outdoor riding is usually detrimental to your outdoor riding ability. Of the two points listed, mine is certainly the former (to get faster when racing.) Turbo is a means to an end and a way of training when I can't get outdoors (not always possible with two small kids.) Numbers are of interest (mine to me!) as they represent measurable abilities that are potentially significant to outdoor riding/racing and something that can be trained and tracked.
If you think TR users are obsessed with numbers I'd suggest a quick browse of the Zwift racing thread 😉
FWIW, to a certain extent I think time spent pedalling on a bike is time spent pedalling on a bike. Whether it be commuting or doing some intricate interval routine, it all contributes (provided it's part of your plan and you avoid the junk.) I think you need the volume, and that can't all be high intensity stuff, so commuting can fit in nicely as a way of upping your low intensity volume. You probably need to be careful if you are following some sort of plan that the extra load is factored in though. If you suddenly start commuting half an hour each way every day you're adding 5hr of riding, probably about 250 TSS to your weekly load. Good in a way as when you do come to do a training session, you can be really specific and not worry about the volume as that's taken care of by your commuting.
Thanks for your thoughts folks. I think i'm going to carry on as I did last year and get in plenty of miles outside. I'll stay on trainer road and try to manage my fatigue levels, if my legs start to feel it when I'm out i'll back off a bit.
mrblobby has got it spot on with regard to just using the turbo. Two years ago due to circumstance I did nearly a full winter on the turbo, by the time I came to ride outside it was like I was made of wood riding a wooden bike!.
I'm interested in gray's experience further up this page. I have a Vortex too and have put my singlespeed 29er on it after I did the FTP on my road bike. I did Keelers Needle last night and during the sharp increases in power I found I had to increase my cadence to over 110 to keep up with the power slope. The bike has a 32 front 18 rear on. I have a feeling you're going to tell me that the gearing is too low. Its the first time I've trained using an erg trainer other than on zwift and that was with road bike.
mrblobby (and teamslug) thanks for your opinions and for taking it as intended; reading it back (and posted in a TR thread) I can see it could come across as trolling, which it wasn't. I'm following this thread and the TR podcasts because I am thinking of incorporating some structured training into my "just riding" next year, with a view to qualifying for the CX Nationals, but my Strava timeline is now dominated by friends on Zwift 'rides' when I've just had a fantastic sun-basked commute into my late shift, and I'll be riding home under a full moon (hopefully with a tailwind!) later tonight.
Zwift 'rides'
Not tried Zwift yet but intend to give it a go with a decent smart turbo. Be interested to see how much it replicates the experience of riding outdoors as it might be useful in improving the specificity of longer z2/z3 rides when it has to be the turbo.
Going back to this...
Not being anti TR or anti Turbo but have seen people giving up outdoor riding for the turbo which seems perverse
Zwift seems to be changing the game a bit. It does seem that for an increasing number riding is now Zwift. And training on Zwift is for racing on Zwift. I know some people now who never ride outdoors, it's all Zwift riding and racing. Seems a bit odd to me, but then I've not tried it.
I'm really new to this "training" but having bought a PM i'm taking advice 🙂
When teamslug talks of getting plenty of miles outside, for me the difference between a 3Hr fasted Endurance ride and similar Recovery pace is huge. I've massive respect for commuters but as mentioned previously traffic, lights etc greatly impacts on zones. I haven't Zwift or TR for the indoor stuff but have a Muin and a dated dvd library (Monday's Blockbuster.. Last Samurai 2/3 parts).
Yesterday 2:20hrs in that filthy rain, as I said great respect for commuters.
Enjoying this thread btw
Used Powermatch this morning - worked perfectly for the first time... not sure why (don't think there was a software update). Actually, thinking about it, it worked well on Tuesday for my 8 minute test too. Hope it continues!
Good to know as my smart turbo should be here soon. Not sure I'll bother much with powermatch. Erg mode just sounds like something that makes the turbo even less like real riding but I'll still have a play with it.
MrBlobby, please feel free to come and experience Zwift in my dining room. The Kickr is unfortunately packed awaiting warranty collection but it's still awesome on my crappy old Tacx + Stages 🙂 I will even stand there and adjust the resistance slider to simulate the hills for you 😀
Having done a winter of Z1/2 rides outside in the dark and rain with lights and getting hit by a car- give me Watopia any day 🙂
Thanks for the offer though think turbo is an activity best done in isolation (Confirmed recently by Kryton's video!)
What happened to the kickr?
After trying lots of software solutions to the power spikes, I ended up just losing resistance altogether so whether it's software or not- it's going back to be fixed 🙂
Confirmed recently by Kryton's video
It wouldnt do to sweat all over somw elses carpet.
Bashful tonight at 102%. Good times.
Geiger for me this morning, way too early but needs must. 3 *12 and felt pretty good.
Last of our clubs winter series of MTB races this Saturday then hopefully I can get a couple of good long rides in outside over the Christmas period, finish this block off and re-do the FTP before the next 6 weeks.
Erg mode just sounds like something that makes the turbo even less like real riding but I'll still have a play with it.
I blimmin love erg mode. It's great not having to bugger about changing gears and cadence to match the desired power profile. Out of curiosity, why get a Neo if you're not expecting to use the smartypants-ness of it? (Can I have it if you don't like it? 🙂 )
🙂 A few reasons for getting a Neo. One reason is the virtual flywheel thing and it's ability to simulate a massive one which better represents the energies involved when riding time trials, so improved specificity. Also keen to see how well it mimics the variability of real riding when using something like Zwift for z2/z3 rides. Also my current turbo, a Lemond, is ridiculously loud and I'm a little worried about my hearing!
Edit... also curious to see how accurate the power measurement is. I hear it's very good so may be able to free up a power metre too 🙂
OK then, you have my blessing. 🙂
I've got a serious case of CBA. I'm 2 ride away from my Christmas break, didn't get any riding in at the weekend sue to snapping my road frame, and am racing a 40min CX next Tuesday.
Any motivational tips?
Oh and there's beer in the fridge.
Drink it.
Lol. I did - after i scraped through Morgan, my least favourite workout
New trainer setup and 8min FTP test for me this evening (he says, coming it [i]really[/i] late to this thread). I started one earlier in the week but the trainer was far too tight on the tyre and I nearly threw up before I'd even got to the actual assessment intervals, much better tonight after doing some research on setup. Results are probably mediocre, but hey. I'm starting on Sweet Spot Base I as the first time I've ever done any sort of guided training, lining up with longer gravel event plans for the year, not expecting miracles but want to increase my chances of at least finishing.
One thing was noticeable tonight though - I've got really crap control at high cadence. Trying to do the first couple of spin intervals during the warm up it was a real fight not to bounce all over the shop. They talk about a 'gentle but fast spin' being 90-ish, whereas I'm more comfortable at 70-80. Anyone got any good tips for working on leg speed, or is that something that will develop as I go?
You need to concentrate to keep that nice 90rpm at first, but stick at it a month or so and it'll become second nature. No special drills required, but if you wish you can do 5 min blocks at 100-110 which will make 90 seem more normal.
I did Haeckel last night. High Force ,Low cadence and I really hate spinning at anything less than 70rpm. No pain but it feels like my knees are going to give in. With regard to cadence ^Pyro, about 4 years ago I made a conscious effort to make sure I was spinning everything at about 90rpm. Like fifeandy says it becomes second nature as your muscles get used to it. I'm doing sweet spot at moment and a lot of the coaching is about turning circles which will help even out your spin as your rpm increases. Good luck with the 8 min FTP. Have a sick bucket handy cos the other week I had to swallow 😯 cos the bucket was too far away!!!
No vomit, but was definitely getting the white haze in my vision for the last couple of minutes of the second interval. Numbers are up a bit on the last time I did one, but that was 18 months ago on a different bike and a different trainer, so I'm not counting it as an 'improvement' as such!
Cheers for the tips, will see how we get on. Looking at my old Garmin data, I tend to grind at 65-70rpm most of the time on climbs - sat in that range for the whole forest road climb up to Deadwater summit on Kielder, a couple of Km of constant gradient. Just been bought a bargain gym membership, so might try a spin class or two as well, see if that helps.
For my last FTP test I had a bucket nearby. However, as I was nearing the end of the test I realised that whilst I wasn't very far from needing to use it, I didn't think that I'd have enough energy to move my upper body enough to the side to hit the target if I needed to.
I tend to grind at 65-70rpm most of the time on climbs
climbing isn't the best riding to judge cadence as you might be gear or traction-limited, and if any out-the-saddle climbing is included it's likely to be higher gear/lower cadence than seated. On flat roads I sit at about 95rpm, but climbing seated (either on or off-road) my cadence drops, and on steep stuff I might do the whole thing out of the saddle. And on the way back down you're either freewheeling or easy-pedalling big gears so again not spinning.
Just scrolling back through my Strava: did a flat local loop (30 miles only 800ft of climbing) recently, average cadence 92rpm. Compare with an extreme climbing day this summer (Stelvio, twice), average cadence 68.
Got to say I am enjoying TR much more with my "smart" trainer than I did before.
MSP how do?
Still waiting on my Neo 🙁 LBS have promised it this week from the distributor. I don't have much faith!
I'm in the second week of Sweet Spot Base 1. This morning I skipped a workout and rode to work outside instead. In my defence, I did go the long way. I'll try to catch up on the plan over the break though.
mrblobby - I thought you ordered the Neo from that Amazon cheapish link?
I did, but got chatting in my LBS and they did me a deal so cancelled my Amazon order. I'm happier buying from them for a bit of peace of mind as they'll be good with any warranty issues. I promised them I'd go to them first for a CX bike too if I ever get around to buying one 🙂
Looks like the new Tacx Flux are selling well at my LBS though, whenever I pop in they have loads of them coming in to meet orders.
Winter "plan" (making it up as I go along with just some rough TSS and time targets) going quite well so far here. Been a lot of steady base stuff gradually building up the CTL for the past couple of months, now starting to mix in some harder 20 and 8 minute efforts. Bigger power numbers always seem a bit daunting after a lot of z2/z3 work!
MSP how do?
Stupid iPad, I meant "how so?"
Winter "plan" going quite well so far here.
Good news!
Same here - I'm due a rest conveniently timed with the Christmas week, but tonight I do the last of my "plan" ( repeated week 6&7 of Short Build to fit a gap) by completing Bird. Next week is Christmas debauchery, and out door riding - Christmas Eve MTB pootle, 27th Dec 40 min CX on a fat tired under geared MTB just for the craic, my "job interview" (chat with potential new Race team for 2017) as a spin around Hadleigh on the 27th and hopefully by the news years weekend I'll have spruced up the winter / turbo bike so I can get back on the road.
But, power and pain/endurance threshold appear to be on the up. With my first season race (MSG Rd1) on 25th Feb, I start XCO speciality on 2nd Jan timed to finish just before then. I'm away in the US for a week mid Jan but they have a big gym, so I plan to thrash my legs on weights and trim down with some running during that week.
Anyway, Happy Christmas!
Stupid iPad, I meant "how so?"
I assumed you were more northern than you come across. 🙂
That's cool on the LBS front. I'd certainly factor in warranty handling in any powermeter / smart trainer purchase. I ought to have sent my Vortex back while it was still in warranty, but just didn't fancy the hassle of sending it to Germany...
with potential new Race team for 2017
That sounds interesting Kryton. How did that come about? Ride for the local club at the moment but fancy something different and subs are due. Would quite like a move to a club/team that was more organised around racing.
I'm away in the US for a week ..... so I plan to ..... trim down
Good luck with that after the 4 stacks of pancakes for breakfast every day.
MrBlobby - drop me an email (in my profile).
how so?
Hard to put my finger on exactly why, but I just think the experience works better with the resistance being controlled, all I have to do is worry about matching cadence roughly to their sugestions (and sometimes not doing so, going at my own cadence and just matching the power of the workout).
It has only been a few weeks, but I am using it more and getting more out of the sessions than I ever have before. If this lasts all winter I will be pretty fit and happy in spring.
Kryton, have emailed.
MSP, interesting that. I'll certainly give the erg mode thing a go when I get mine. Current thinking is that it just makes it less like proper riding. But I can see that it might be useful in intervals where you want to see if you can maintain a level despite changes in cadence.
I agree with MSP, but you already know that. 🙂
There's no way I'd buy a dumb trainer now.