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Week 3 of mountain bike mid volume started tonight, Lafaytte, is it sad to say I'm enjoying the pain ? Liking the turbo in winter as means that my commute can be a nice drift along and mtb is just about having fun, without the background thought that I should be 'working' at it.
So what to do on Friday?
Ive been doing an hour on Monday and Wednesday and then 1hr30 on Fridays, but I've got a big all day ride planned on Saturday.
So do I ditch the Friday and replace with Saturday, do it anyway and suffer on the Saturday or miss the Friday and do it on Monday instead.
Personally I'm thinking to skip the Friday, ride Saturday and then do the 1hr30 session on Monday instead
Do the session, 3hr 30m a week isn't much, you have more rest days than on days
If your tired come Monday just reduce the intensity of the work out, depends how big you class a big mtb ride?
Carson tonight which I wasn't looking forward to given my dismal performance on Monday - looking at the heart/power data from that session I thought I was coming down with a cold. In the event it wasn't too bad though the low cadence on some of the efforts was hard work. Eclipse on Friday.
Back on it this week after having a week away in New York, not a good start after only doing 1 week.
Goddard and Monitor done. Felt good.
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/1560746-Goddard
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/1576668-Monitor
So do the session. that would mean 3 sessions and then Saturday ride, which makes 4 days on 3 days rest??
whats wrong with that?
anyone got a any tips for sessions first thing in the morning. I seem to struggle to be up and awake. power down, flag early etc. If i do the same sessions in the afternoon then i find them (relatively) easy; before work i'm giving up and not finishing.
The only reason i am training before work is because after work is really tough for me to fit in.
Do sessions with a longer less intense warm up, sounds obvious but Sufferfest sessions that start at 4/10 are way way harder, (for me anyway), than those that start at 3/10, no matter what the time of day I do them, (Local Hero I'm looking at you here).
Also you have the option to tone down the intensity, so do the sessions at 95% of FTP not 100% as is the default. This in itself is a massive mental boost.
I do all my training before work - I'd suggest for the aerobic ones a glass of orange juice and a cup of tea, for the more anaerobic I add a gel in as well. Seems to help me when I'm about to mount the turbo at 6.15 in the morning.
Blew up again tonight 🙁 Think I might have a bit of a bug, it's the second no finish this week. Not sure if to redo this week's block next week or write it off and keep to the plan.
Because in your previous post you said you have more rest days than on days. When clearly I don't!
Ive been doing an hour on Monday and Wednesday and then 1hr30 on Fridays, but I've got a big all day ride planned on Saturday.
3 on, 4 off?
Because in your previous post you said you have more rest days than on days. When clearly I don't!
I think the point is that a 1-1.5 hour ride/ turbo session shouldn't take too much out of you so do what you want. Even if you properly smash yourself in that time, the legs will feel a touch sore the next day, but you'll physically be able to do all your planned days in a row with no rest and still have good rides/ sessions. Start with the shortest most intense intervals on day one then make the intervals longer and less intense as you go to day three if you ever do triple up your days. Assuming good sleep/ food/ etc physiologically they aren't long enough to require a lot of rest.
God I'm struggling with my top end. All my recent workouts are 125% Ftp or above short power intervals, followed the next day by 12 mins x whatever just short of Ftp. Just completed wolf jaw 30, yes 30 sprints. Had to go down to 95% after 10.
I know the say train to your weakness but I'm feeling the pain-literally! Ah well, got to keep trying, to improve.
God I'm struggling with my top end. All my recent workouts are 125% Ftp or above short power intervals, followed the next day by 12 mins x whatever just short of Ftp. Just completed wolf jaw 30, yes 30 sprints. Had to go down to 95% after 10.
In theory, as far as I am aware, 125% FTP should be quite doable for repeated 4-5 minute intervals, maybe even longer. Super short repeated sprints are however... a total killer 😀 I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. Do an FTP test if you don't have a recent one, make sure you are fresh (mentally too!) for the highest intensity days and don't worry too much about the numbers during the sprints for the first few sessions- just go as hard as you can while being repeatable. A bit like an FTP test, a bit of practice and knowing your legs goes a long way IMO.
as above
the 125% over FTP bits are too short (30s) to keep accurate, i often find I'm far to high on the wattage so cannot repeat many,
but on a 125% prolonged effort its easier to pace so i can hold 375/380W even if I'm hanging at the end
most recent i have was this, outdoors, slight ramp at the end, hence the dip in speed
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Is a fair point. I initially struggle with the "off" period which is just below Ftp but the lactic is burning through and not gone before I'm back on again in 15 seconds time. Oh it burns. But yes the experience grew and I was less ragged at the end than the beginning.
I can't hold 125% for more than a minute and a half, it's always been an issue for me, I'm not a powerful rider at the top end I tend to chug along consistently over long periods, hence my better succes at longer MTB events.
As I said I need to work to his though to improve my overall end game.
It is good to train to weaknesses but also not worth beating yourself up about it, one of the great things I am finding about using TR and a turbo is that it is a safe environment to test yourself. It is helping me understand where my limits are and just how far I can push without holding back thinking I either had to get home or finish a race.
Did an 8 minute test two days ago, still no good at constant power and pacing, more power on second interval with too strong a finish. But learning and was an improvement.
Just to add wouldnt get too hung up on sprinting, I am working on losing a bit of top end to fill in my mid range. I race hour and half xc and always lead from the start but get reeled in.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not upset. I know its not my strength, and I know keep doing it will help.
In e beginning with TR I wasn't failing a single interval. Now there are some I can't finish. As long as I'm mentally and physically giving it my all I know I'm developing myself, rather like that last rep to failure in the gym. I was ready to give me after 45 mins becuase me legs hurt so much but I move to a TT/sprint position on the nose of the saddle and continued to knock them out.
Jack Bobridge failed he hour record today, but riding at 51kph for an hour is still huge.
It can be frustrating and demoralising though, I've never been good a pushing myself for the sake of it that's why I seem to have developed into a of a sprinter because I enjoy pushing power and I have neglected endurance.
That's some HR dirty rider, doesn't seem to be dropping at all in between intervals, I couldn't flatline like that I'd fall over. Think your fairly local to me, or at least go round Dalby a bit. Stalker mode. It's only that I've seen your stages on your mtb on that thread.
I can't hold 125% for more than a minute and a half, it's always been an issue for me, I'm not a powerful rider at the top end I tend to chug along consistently over long periods, hence my better succes at longer MTB events.
I would have thought you can, otherwise you'd never get up even a fairly small rise repeatedly in the longer events. 125% FTP doesn't get you far in real, outdoor rides, assuming average weight and fitness. For example, my FTP is pretty low at the moment, 3.25W/kg, and 125%FTP is just over 300W and roughly equivalent to the power I need to climb a 8-10% lightly muddy gradient in the granny ring to just keep moving and not stall. Unless you never encounter moderate gradient off-road climbs of longer than a minute and a half then I think you do physically have the power in the legs. In reality, outdoors, 125% FTP is like a fair but not crazy climbing pace on a 4,5,6 minute climb. This seems to tally with Monod's critical power model so I don't think my numbers for this are too far away from reality for most
I think as dirtyrider mentions above the main issue is getting accurate numbers out of these short intervals. Displaying power over multiple seconds means there's a lag in the reading so it is easy to overreach and displaying 1s power means you'll see a highly variable number- neither is a good way to hit sustainable power in repeated sprints IMO. I don't know what others think but I'd be tempted to focus on keeping a consistent gear and cadence selections and be conscious to click the same number of gears for each sprint rather than chase numbers on TR.
Main thing above all that is know what the aim of the session is and ride to those aims according to how your legs are on that day. There shouldn't really be such a thing as failing a session unless you are really knackered before even starting in which case a rest does no harm
I don't know what others think but I'd be tempted to focus on keeping a consistent gear and cadence selections and be conscious to click the same number of gears for each sprint rather than chase numbers on TR.
I was doing this as TR was taking a few seconds to register my increased power, slightly annoying this as the workout NP and TSS is flawed as a result - but never mind I know what I've done physically.
Re 125%, its possible I have my resistance on my Turbo set to high - 3 months ago I set it higher to help me develop some power. FWIW a 125% burst is giving me about 30kph on TR whereas on the flat road I'd expect the speed to be higher as I can ride that below threshold - perhaps I'm climbing a bigger hill than you indicate as a result.
i think the last time i did any sort of intervals on the turbo, i did Katahdin thats a nice session,
depends on the session your doing as well, as some are 100% of FTP with jumps to 125% or more, then back to 100% then 125% again, those sessions are HARD
I was doing this as TR was taking a few seconds to register my increased power, slightly annoying this as the workout NP and TSS is flawed as a result - but never mind I know what I've done physically.
The response of TR measuring and recording power should be pretty instantaneous to your effort measured by speed. I'm pretty sure what actually gets recorded is fine. I think it is mainly that you have TR set to display an average over multiple seconds, hence it looks like there is a lag between the effort and the numbers rising. I wouldn't worry about NP or TSS for 30s sprints since it is based upon a 20s moving average which smooths "peaky" efforts and will always underestimate them anyway.
Re 125%, its possible I have my resistance on my Turbo set to high - 3 months ago I set it higher to help me develop some power. FWIW a 125% burst is giving me about 30kph on TR whereas on the flat road I'd expect the speed to be higher as I can ride that below threshold - perhaps I'm climbing a bigger hill than you indicate as a result.
Power is power, resistance is irrelevant providing you have your settings correct.
Power is power, resistance is irrelevant providing you have your settings correct.
Yes. I forgot to think before I posted that.
Dirty rider - yes that's is wolf jaw.
So that's me all set up - been following this thread with interest and did the 8 minute test today. I went off a bit hard on the first one and had to scale things back but got the second one pretty steady. Although I've not ridden much of late I was a little disappointed at my performance before realising when I got off the bike that one rear brake pad had been rubbing on the wheel! ARSE! Gonna have to try the test again in a couple of days I think 😯
Chapeau to all who did the Tour of Sufferlandria. Top efforts there 😀
Had intended to do a lumpy z2/z3 road ride yesterday but couldn't get out the house so decided to have a crack at creating [url= http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/94421-pal-z2-z3-2-30 ]something similar[/url]. Fairly frequent pace changes and the CX worlds on the telly helped the 180 mins pass fairly quickly!
If anyone from TrainerRoad is listening, workout creator is great! Better cut, copy and paste for chunks of rides would be good to have. I know I can create snippets but it's a bit clunky compared to a quick copy and paste. Also being able to select an insertion point for a chunk would be good. Also it'd be nice to be able to select a chunk of a workout (a few intervals) and increase/decrease the intensity of everything selected.
I've finally given up and lowered my FTP by 5% after having difficulty with 4 x 12 at 95-99% ftp yesterday. Struggling on the final two, I ended up 1 minute "on" (at target) and 1 minute off having changed down a gear still pedalling furiously at 108rpm for the whole 12 and there 24 mins.
Today my quads are really hurting, so no lack of effort on my part, despite only logging a 174w NP. Time wise It all seems to coincide from late October with:
a) a chest infection
b) a change of rear tire
c) changing my resistance from "2" to "3" on my turbo.
Obviously I need to do an FTP test but the shame of what will be lower figures I find quite embarrassing albeit I appreciate its only a reference to my own setup.
Just got to fit the FTP test between race schedules.
As you say, numbers are all relative to your setup. Considering your competitiveness in races I'd say you're quite a bit higher than the virtual power figures. Also it's normal to have peaks and troughs throughout the year depending on where you are with your training.
Kryton, have you tried a complete uninstall of TrainerRoad, or can you find someone who can let you use their setup?
maybe its a failing sensor or something?
176w seems really low, really really low,
Dirty rider - that is as caculated by TR not "real". Mrblobby - by coincidence it was a fresh install of TR and the dongle onto my work PC, as my wife chose my workout time to upgrade our old MacBook annoyingly.
Fwiw and I appreciate there's some drafting and mathematical BS and inaccuracy in this comparison, my last Crit registered 300w average over an hour on Strava and my legs weren't as painful as they are today.
I wouldn't necessarily trust Strava either (especially if drafting etc) and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Just as a quick comparison my FTP using virtual power was 183W which jumped to 238W within 2 weeks when switching to a proper power meter last year. 238W is hardly mind blowing either but it is a big jump from the VP! It wouldn't be surprising at all if the exact resistance generated between the turbo and tyre with different tyres (I use a 26er MTB width tyre for example) and varying turns of the resistance knob is highly variable between set ups- TR can't possibly second guess all of the variables between individuals.
Another thing to bear in mind is that you seem to be doing a lot of races and events which will take quite a lot out of your legs even if you aren't in it to win it. Quite a shocking amount actually if you ever move to using a PM outside too- much easier to knock out 1 hour turbo sessions day after day but of course less fun that proper riding 😀
kryton is there anyone near to you that can lend you a power meter ? You seem to be having more than a few issues, unfortunately Strava power doesn't match any 'real life' figures I've done. I'm in North Yorkshire with a kickr and a stages if your anywhere near.
yer ignore the strava watts, it thinks you was out there on your own, in perfect conditions
Rsvktm, do you run the kickr and the stages together? Be interested to know how good you think the power measurement on the kickr is? Heard that it can drift quite a bit and that people are increasingly using their own PM to control the kickr.
Re Strava, it's more interesting to compare your ride to others who were in the same race who publish their power numbers. Everyone's different but it gives you a ballpark or an idea of where you need to be.
Re a proper PM, if you can't borrow one and you really don't want to buy one, you can always rent one for a couple of months. It's pretty cheap to do. Would at least take some of the doubt and guess work out of the equation.
DanW ive only raced 3 times at weekends. My normal week is TR Tuesday and Thursday, ride an hour on Friday and club ride Sunday. If I do a Saturday crit I drop Friday's ride.
I'll see if I can spot someone on my last race with a powermeter..
Even the Sunday club ride can take it's toll on the legs if a reasonable length and pace- even more so if you have some bad nights sleep and a bit of stress at work, etc. It is quite an eye opener to see power data from outdoor rides for the first few times when you are used to seeing the numbers coming out of TR sessions that feel fairly hard.
Before getting hung up and real power and real PM's the first step is to get an FTP test done since all the set up changes but it sounds like you have this in the pipeline anyway which is good.
It appears the average of those with Powermeters in that race was 250w, those estimated was 280-300w.
Sleep has been an issue Dan - I have quite a mentally stressful job and our youngest is getting up one or twice night. Can it really be that thats affecting me so badly?
I'll do the FTP test.
unless you've solo'd off the front then NP in a race will be way less than peoples FTP, don't worry about others FTP's or Numbers, the only person you have to concentrate is yourself and getting consistent data you can train to
kids, I've got a 5 month old who only sleeps 20-40 minutes a day, a nearly 3 year old, a just 4 year, old and a 3 year old i have once a week,if i can get 20% increase on my FTP ill consider getting rid of them 😉
Sleep has been an issue Dan - I have quite a mentally stressful job and our youngest is getting up one or twice night. Can it really be that thats affecting me so badly?
It would really do me no good. The difference between a busy, stressful week and a week working at home getting up when I feel like it is night and day for how the legs feel. A bit of pressure and worry at work in particular seems to really take its toll for me, sleep a little less so.
kids, I've got a 5 month old who only sleeps 20-40 minutes a day, a nearly 3 year old, a just 4 year, old and a 3 year old i have once a week,if i can get 20% increase on my FTP ill consider getting rid of them
Or at least work from home and have more flexibility with sleep and stress... that is an intermediary step before re-homing 😀 If you improved your FTP 20% you'd be fighting it out for podiums at the nationals 😀
mr blobby, haven't had a problem with the kickr. It is reading high compared to the stages but consistent as long as do a spin down test once it's warmed up. I've just adjusted the ftp up and done a test to make sure accurate. I couldn't turbo without the kickr erg mode, I'm too lazy and would back off... Can't use the stages as on a carbon road bike that I don't like to see flex in the turbo, just have an old steel mtb in there.
just 20% eh, i leave the property guide hanging about on the table tomorrow 😉
aaannnd worse still. Performing Morgan at the now reduced FTP, to complete the 3 min intervals x 8 I had to reduce the session to 87%.
Apart from 2 sessions in December, the last time I completed a nice smooth >200w interval of any length was November 20th, at the end of 2 x 8 weeks of Sweet Spot. Looking at my strava notes, this is around the time I had that chest infection for 6 weeks.
Could it really be that I haven't recovered (physically rather than bacteriogically) from that and am actually getting more and more progressively tired?
But I ask - talking to myself - how come I'm ok for crits - ah - becuase my last interval session was on the Tuesday then I raced on Saturday = rested.
This is the final week of my build session. I've two more weekend crits before I get to the MTB XC Olympic Specialist session, the first session of which I'll make an FTP test. So I'll spend those two intervening weeks with the suggested final week of the Build plan - the recovery week. Maybe I just need a longer rest, because with the weather as is, I've been 85% Turbo for the last 6 weeks.
Hmm 8)
have a week off