[Closed] Train Addictions' Guide Groupings: flawed?

It's obviously just a guideline... But yeah, Laggan black is a step above most UK blacks. I like the way they deride most uk reds with a single line- everything not glentress or afan is basically a fire road 😉 Hebden Bridge I can't comment on, not ridden there. but at the end of the day it's always going to be a fudge, and even if you had the perfect system, people would still fib. So it'll be an indicator, then they'll watch the riders in action too- just a starting point.

Whiterooms have a sort of similiar thing, which IIRC also has a wee "about me" box. I ended up saying something like "I am quite fit but I'd rather not waste my holidays riding up mountains, I've raced downhill at fort bill but don't assume that means I'm any good" 😉

That's why on the first day all the groups ride in reasonable proximity of each other, so the guides can assess who's been billy big boll*cks on the paperwork, but can't ride for toffee, so gets bumped down a few groups.

Likewise those who are better than they came across can be bumped up accordingly.

Laggan above Lakes dunt make sense,seeing as its made and designed to be rode on a bike.

and Hebden above lakes aint right either

think it must be a typing error 🙂

Laggan may be steep but would you place it above the trails in the Lakes, Peaks and Wales in technicality?

Maybe they went to the Lakes and just rode Loughrigg Terrace.

Regardless of whether people over-exaggerate their abilities or whether they decide for themselves, the ratings on the guidelines are make-believe. I'm not arguing about how they themselves judge people's riding or whether everyone out there would put themselves as a 6.

I don't see what is wrong with it. It gives a good initial assessment for them prior to the groups arrival and then allows less time wasting on the first day as you have already filtered people into similar ability groups.

How is telling people that riding something like Grisedale Tarn down to Glenridding is equivalent to your average Black run not flawed?

Stopadoodledoo - Member

Laggan may be steep but would you place it above the trails in the Lakes, Peaks and Wales in technicality?

What, all of them 😕

They've made a call based on what they see as typical lakeland/peaks riding, not the hardest possible. Sure there's super-gnar stuff but most people aren't riding it so when Johnny Q Sundayrider says "Oh yeah, I've ridden in the lakes" it's got to be taken with that light. Think of it as lowest common denominators maybe, not the ends of the bellcurve.

northwind

then they need to take Hebbers away from the top then dont they and put next to lakes n peaks

True, but even something like the Kentmere side of Garburn, which a hell of a lot of visitors to the Lakes have ridden, is surely still above most trail centre black runs?

They have steps in Hebden, Blower; steps. Sometimes they can be a bit wet and slippy.

Blower - Member

then they need to take Hebbers away from the top then dont they and put next to lakes n peaks

Maybe. Or maybe it works for them and they don't need to change a thing. Probably they're better judges...

Maybe it works for them because they totally ignore what has been put down on people's forms

And they don't even mention the trail behind the Nationwide in Swindon....

Can't please everyone. The fact that they have so many different groups, guides etc and go to so much trouble to ensure everyone is with equal ability riders and that they don't get taken down something on the first day which is likely to cause injury is much better than a lot of companies out there. I would take that as a big positive.

I put us down as a tech 5. Some mistake was made as we ended up with a female guide !

(OK, she races DH world cups and is into knives, but nevertheless...)

But seriously, she sussed us out pretty quick, kept us out of the park stuff and hit the locals stuff & steep bits.

I'm sure they are well aware that anyone that says they heard about the company on STW will list themselves as a 6 but in reality be closer to a 3.

They are also probably very aware that people on here are good at missing the point; I'm not talking about their ability to judge how shit you are at riding, just the examples of trails given against the ratings.

Northwind - Member

Blower - Member

then they need to take Hebbers away from the top then dont they and put next to lakes n peaks

Maybe. Or maybe it works for them and they don't need to change a thing. Probably they're better judges...

judges of what UK riding is?

Having rode there and the UK comparisons I'd say its a good comparison, by Heiden they mean the damn technical rocky stuff and I'd liken that to la varda and Lagan black

I'm scared to go to Hebden Bridge now.

Having rode there and the UK comparisons I'd say its a good comparison, by Heiden they mean the damn technical rocky stuff and I'd liken that to la varda and Lagan black

you need to get out more, mate

Blower - Member

judges of what UK riding is?

No... Judges of how useful the answers to the questions are to them. It's not like they're trying to produce a UK trails scoreboard.

Am I missing something here, you're complaining about the tool that they use to do a basic sort on the Sunday morning shakedown and then move people about, on a technicality?

I mean you clearly understand the purpose and the procedure, it's just the location of Hebden Bridge on their description level....and you think other people need to get out more?

Today's self aware award goes to.....

To an extent they have though. Hora rides around Hebden Bridge a fair bit; does that mean that going from trail comparisons, he should classify himself as a 6?

Did you think you were a 6 but they classified you as a 3 after day one? 😆

The thing I find most surprising is that Nevis DH is given the highest technical rating? I don't think it's particularly technical at all, the red is probably more technical.

As for the Lakes debate, I don't think they're tying to have a pop at you, just looking at an average day out and saying "if you're happy riding Lakes routes then you'll be fine on level 4 in the alps"

Clearly, if you're a complete riding god and can manual down the most super douper techy routes in the lakes, you don't really need a guide to tell you what trails you can get down in the alps.

It's for people who've never been before, there's no way to compare otherwise.

I doubt it was designed to highlight the differences between UK trails and make people all upset 🙂

peterfile - Member

The thing I find most surprising is that Nevis DH is given the highest technical rating? I don't think it's particularly technical at all, the red is probably more technical.

At a guess, that's just the highest level they're interested in- bell curves again, their holidays won't be pitched at people who only break a sweat while frontflipping down glencoe on a unicycle so once you get past this level, they don't really need to know.

peterfile - Member

The thing I find most surprising is that Nevis DH is given the highest technical rating? I don't think it's particularly technical at all, the red is probably more technical.

I suppose it also depends on how you ride a trail. Are you making it down or able to smash out 8-10 runs a day at around 5-6 mins each?

I find riding the red much easier than trying to hit the WC trail all day. (The red's just tighter and more nadgery imo)

At a guess, that's just the highest level they're interested in- bell curves again, their holidays won't be pitched at people who only break a sweat while frontflipping down glencoe on a unicycle so once you get past this level, they don't really need to know.

Aye, sorry i wasn't very clear. I just meant that compared to the other trails they mention, specifically Laggan, Nevis DH isn't really very "technical". Fast and with a huge crash potential, yes, but massively technical? I know a few people who are happy to spend all day on the DH but won't go near the red.

But yeah, I guess if you're used to hooning it 8 runs a day at Nevis DH there's not going to be much that will concern you elsewhere 🙂

I suppose it also depends on how you ride a trail. Are you making it down or able to smash out 8-10 runs a day at around 5-6 mins each?

I find riding the red much easier than trying to hit the WC trail all day. (The red's just tighter and more nadgery imo)

I can do a fair bit of the DH quite quickly, but I seem to go flying on the red when I try brakes off in much of the rocky sections. I suppose the technical difficulties on the red are more sustained, whereas the WC track is built for speed so the difficulties are more spaced out so it feels like there's more "flow" to it and that can make it a bit less techy feeling.

"Flow" is the last word I'd use to describe how i ride the red 🙂
Laggan is designed really well though, despite it's difficulties you can really get a rhythm going.

So where are folk then on the scale? FWIW in UK terms I'm somewhere between 4 and a 5, but haven't been to Hebden or Fort Bill. Ridden Rangers plenty but there's [i]that[/i] section which is beyond me. Don't think I've heard of Miner's Strike or Mont Jovet Creek section but have ridden the others on level 6 (with muchos mincing, dabbing and one or two dismounts on the others, e.g. La Varda).

perhaps the Hebden Bridge entry was strategic marketing as they knew it would spawn a few WTF threads on this here forum. Or perhaps Grumpy Mark paid to have it put in there.

Well Stopadoodledoo I managed the third fastest time on strava for la varda on the last day with a hangover, 1 min behind Ali from trail addiction who has no doubt rode it plenty so maybe I don't!

Anyone ever been on a riding trip, put in the wrong group and not been challenged/had a good time?

So where are folk then on the scale?

I'm a 3. On a good day!

On that scale I put myself at a five however I went with my GF who put herself at two on their scale, TA pretty much found enough stuff that kept me happy and didn't scare the beejesus out of my GF*

* apart from day one when she very nearly came close to jacking it all in( and me) 😆

Never ridden Hebden Bridge, have ridden behind the Nationwide at Swindon

Well Stopadoodledoo I managed the third fastest time on strava for la varda on the last day with a hangover, 1 min behind Ali from trail addiction who has no doubt rode it plenty so maybe I don't!

😀

Go you!

Some people I ride with went this year. He put himself down as a 6, and the top group only had 4 people in it at the end of the week. His Mrs started in a higher group, then dropped down. Not because of the technicality of the trails, but because of the pace they were riding everything at, all day. They seemed to enjoy it on the whole.

The guide they had made reference to it being unusual to have his rear wheel buzzed all week by guests, down and up.

He's a quick rider though, to be fair.

scruff - Member
I put us down as a tech 5. Some mistake was made as we ended up with a female guide !
(OK, she races DH world cups and is into knives, but nevertheless...)
But seriously, she sussed us out pretty quick, kept us out of the park stuff and hit the locals stuff & steep bits.

I bet she spanked you little a ginger step-child 😉

Which method does your guide company use stopadoodle do ?

isn't it that stopado was stating the grading facts more of uk trails

My guiding company uses the following:

Are you an STW weasel?
Yes - you're not invited; look elsewhere.
No - come along, you're fine.

Interesting theory.

Fwiw i had a grand old time on my holiday with trail addiction.

Never filled in that form mind - just rocked up and rode my bike - was all dandy

They then split us into 2 groups and we rode our bikes some more

One group went an did tech stuff and the other group did less tech

1) I refresh my what tyre for an Orange 5 in the alps thread every 2 minutes
2) I regulary post pictures of my 160mm mince tank on stw
3) I sometimes check stw for specific information and actually ride sometimes
4) I just ride my bike
5) I have lost interest now and am going to press send post

Thing is, I don't get the attraction of going to these places that split you into groups. What if you were shit but your mates good, or the other way round? I go on holiday to ride with mates and have a laugh, would be pissed if I was split off and put in another group.

It reminds me of the signs at funfairs 'If you're not as tall as Scrappy the Cowboy, you can't go on this ride'

just replaced with 'If you are incapable of riding over a wet root, you shouldn't have wasted your money coming'

Stopadoodledoo - Member
Thing is, I don't get the attraction of going to these places that split you into groups. What if you were shit but your mates good, or the other way round? I go on holiday to ride with mates and have a laugh, would be pissed if I was split off and put in another group.

It reminds me of the signs at funfairs 'If you're not as tall as Scrappy the Cowboy, you can't go on this ride'

just replaced with 'If you are incapable of riding over a wet root, you shouldn't have wasted your money coming'

Do many people go on holiday with people of wildly varying abilities? I certainly wouldn't plan to go on a guiding trip to somewhere like TA in that scenario. Of course, if there's a group of six (or so) of you, you'll get your own guide if you want so it wouldn't matter.

Would everyone still have a laugh for a full week if they were having to tone down the riding massively to accommodate one rider, or if you were that rider and feeling out of your depth trying to keep up?

Yes they do. I have a couple of mates whose ability on a bike differs greatly to others but the key point is that we are all mates; we go riding to have a laugh, not to be marginalised into different groups depending on ability. Sure, in the past we've been away in a larger group and at certain points will split into smaller ones so that people can ride the stuff they enjoy but on other days, we'll all make compromises so we can stick together.

If there was six of you on a guided holiday and one got split off into another group, you wouldn't see them until the evening and then the conversation would be along the lines of 'We all had a proper laugh today, rode some proper mint trails, dicked about. What about you?'

'I got stuck with a bunch of Dutch blokes in lycra who hardly spoke a word of English and only wanted to ride the Teacup Trail all day. Can I go home now?'

A bit of an over-exaggeration but you see my point?

The average Hebden descent is steeper/harder than the average Lake District descent IMO so it's fair enough. Yes there is much gnarlier stuff in the Lakes if you seek it out...

Stopadoodle

Similarly, if you just want to ride with your mates or partners, even if you do have to wait for them now and again, then we certainly won't be the ones to stop you. You are on holiday, after all - and the number one priority is having fun!

It seems they let you choose, shock horror

heard of the Singletrail Skala?

it's a little like rock climbing scale. a bit nerdy, but lets people know what level they are at and if you say a certain trail has S4 sections, but mostly S2 then people know that they'll be able to ride most of it.

i think it is a good way of summing up a skills level as most people can relate to it.

http://www.singletrail-skala.de/

click the Jack for google translation....

Hebdens level with Fort Bill???

Parts of the Peaks are alot harder than Hebden too.

Weird. Who wrote this?

I'm not a level (but prob 1-3 8) ) I vary and I hate anything that groups, has formal groups or tries guaging us mountain bikers.

Stick it up your arse trail ****ers.

Stopadoodledoo - Member

Thing is, I don't get the attraction of going to these places that split you into groups. What if you were shit but your mates good, or the other way round? I go on holiday to ride with mates and have a laugh, would be pissed if I was split off and put in another group.

You can choose to ride with your mates, or you can choose to ride at your level. It's not that complicated! What the guides are doing is avoiding throwing you in too deep, or landing you with some stranger who can barely ride, it's in nobody's interest. All just common sense.

I've been on a holiday with a company that didn't do groups and you know what? It's pretty stupid.

Hebdens level with Fort Bill???

Have you ridden the WC track at Fort William hora? It's not actually that scary for the most part. Obviously it's very hard to ride it like the pros do.

Bit hard to compare 'Hebden' which is a place with lots of trails, and one track at Fort William. If you ride cheeky there's some terrifying stuff in Hebden.

cheeky Lakes is hard too or Peaks.

Never been to Fort Bill. Alot of Hebden is cheeky[s]?[/s] Would love to be shown anything that I dont know/tried

Anyway, as interesting a side discussion as the whole guided group thing is, the main point remains that their trail classification guide is a load of bollocks. I wonder if Hebden Bridge would be up there if Singletrack weren't based there?

There is terrifying stuff in lots of places. As mentioned before, why is Hebden singled out when, apparently, the Lakes, etc., are taken as an average? Should we all aspire to ride Hebden to achieve the hallowed TA Level Six grade? Bullshit.

TrailAddiction won't arbitrarily split you up from your mates (even) if there's a wild difference in abilities.

They were excellent the year we went, and most of the groups that came together rode together, or they paired up similar groups of friends on ability.

But I've been on other holidays where the level of riding has been a shock to some people, even on the more basic trails. I was just happy not to be at the back 😉

Its all good. Alles klar.

Nevis red is a techy trail. The harder slabs on Lagan black are damn tricky, as hard as anything I attempted and failed at in Sierra Nevada or Molini. I will manage a clean run before I die but I only visit once a year at best. It's a long way from SW England!

[img] [/img]

All that way to ride a trail centre (laggan)
Far more challenging stuff closer ya feel me?
Cheeky hebden cheeky lakes cheeky peaks sort it out

Thing is one of the best cheeky bits isnt even cheeky. Its unclassified leading into a bridleway...

[img] [/img]
This is what they really need, out on the table over dinner night 1 during the get to know you session, this is what this thread is about isn't it?

No because someone who can ride big wont be able to fight, write poetry or make love for toffee. Seen the pro's? 😉 😆

They look like overgrown children.

Once again, another person has missed the point completely. I was talking about trail classifications in the UK, not rider classifications but I suppose that wouldn't have led to the inclusion of your funny ruler joke, would it?

As far as I can see, only bland has been doing virtual press-ups on the beach in this thread.

this is what this thread is about isn't it?

That's only a 12" rule

That reminds me a joke...

A captain wanders into the mess one evening to find his crew all shouting and cheering while huddled round the table.

They all go quiet when the captain arrives;

"What the hell are you lot doing!? What are all these lines on the table?!" he demands to know

Sheepishly one of the crew replies "We're, erm, measuring all our willies to see who has the biggest captain"

All the crew look at their feet nervously, expecting the captain to be mad

"Ha! Well, give me that chalk and I'll show you boys what your captain's made of!"

With that, the captain takes the chalk, whips down his pants, leans against the table and draws a line.

Delighted that his line is the furthest from the edge by a small margin, he declares himself the winner.

The other sailors look sheepish again;

"Erm, we were measuring from the other side of the table captain"

🙂

Legend- she only won the whip-off contest, we won the lets not break our bikes contest.

When I first read the Trail Addiction levels I thought they were a deliberate mickey take

Regardless of technicality or exposure, I can descend any almost any trail generally conceived as 'rideable' WITHIN my comfort zone / safely.

I thought that was quite a bold statement. I wondered if the 2 locations were

Fort Bill I really do this for a living

Or Hebden Bridge code for I spend a lot of time on forums

The sea captain story is inconclusive

[i]Once again, another person has missed the point completely. I was talking about trail classifications in the UK,[/i]

Just like you have "missed the point completely" about the function of the grading that you're complaining about.

Everyone's a winner

I've been riding in Hebden for years.

That bit of towpath behind the sewage farm was properly dangerous a few years ago - someone could have fallen off on that and got a nasty graze.

Cheers, Pete.
2.5 and quite happy with it.

I know all the standard stuff in Hebden, riverbed, chipps, kebab st, Bluepig, that steps-turning bit up from blue pig and down the face/from the top of Heptonstall but I'm sure there are bits that I'm missing? 🙁

Stopadoodledoo - Member

Once again, another person has missed the point completely. I was talking about trail classifications in the UK,

Well, if that's the case why did you call the thread Trail Addiction's Guide Groupings: Flawed? You seem to have missed your own point, which you've got to admit makes it hard to complain if other people do too.

Trail classification in general's always a fudge, because difficulty depends on skillsets, there's no one difficulty level.

Hora, I"d be grateful if you showed us round sometime.

I've lived nearby for years and am embarrassed that I don't know half of it.

Trail classification in general's always a fudge, because [s]difficulty depends on skillsets, there's no one difficulty level[/s] some people see it as a challenge to their masculinity/riding skills/home trails.

FTFY

Hah. Yeah, that too.

That more than anything! The first year we went there was a big group that were properly upset by Mrs L making them look like mincers!

scruff - Member
Legend- she only won the whip-off contest, we won the lets not break our bikes contest.

That's weird, when we were there she won the whip-off, but we won the lets not tumble down the side of the mountain on our face contest 😉

I may have missed your point due to obscurity but it was heading towards measuring & my trail is harder than your trail BS
I was honest with my white room grading and was not disappointed.

I'm always wary of people who like to tell you how good they are or how hard their trails are...
We did a mega trip where 2 guys were going on about how tough and gnarly everything was, the guy guiding/running it said "You should see the lakes" he had just been taken for a locals special tour the week before 🙂

this thread is really special.