[Closed] Trail Sanitisation - what to do

take up golf?

relax - its cyclical, paths will erode, will be repaired and then erode again or will settle down into a sustainable path.

Its simply not sustainable to leave paths as eroded messes

shit i agree with tj

Stay off em, footpaths are more fun..

Agree here too - as a trail builder I often have similar arguments with riders. Do you think I actually want to ride gravel hardcore too? No id much rather leave it but riding through a boggy mess just isnt much fun either.

Normally the gravel will bed down and get a bit green growth in it, maybe a bit moss etc. We have some old gravel paths that you dont even notice anymore that now drain perfectly and blend in fine.

Let's not forget how much these ' improvements' cost.
There are a million things that need sorting before the councils ruin our favourite tracks. It's happening all over Surrey , yet our roads remain a disgrace and the hospitals a mess.

Why do they all have to be 2 or 3m or whatever? Plenty of bridleways are not that wide
I find the surface they put down after they've done is often worse or a lot worse to walk/ride/horse ride on. Fist sized loose limestone or similar it not upto scatch IMO
Though I prefer it before, the work they've done up on Houndkirk Moor (nr. Ringinglow/Foxhouse nr. Sheffield) isn't huge stone and they've at least tried to bed it in. some sections they've left what their 3m wide 'new' path 1ft above the old one won't stretch wide enough to cover, so some of the old rocky path is still there. It has ~1m^3 sized boulders ever so often presumable to discourage 4x4s form veering off the new path.
Could they leave the 'best' bits of path alone somehow? At least leave the exposed bedrock, fill in the ruts and bogs, put in drainage ditches/gullies etc if it HAS to be done

"No id much rather leave it but riding through a boggy mess just isnt much fun either"
I don't have big issue with boggy messes, I can see the drainage/surface need sorting. But many non boggy tracks get levelled too

Of particular concern to me are works in Leeds and Bradford. E.g. Baildon moor. There's a path near me that was in reasonable condition except a 20m section of bog, so the council hardpack 1km of bw, but guess what, 2 years on and the boggy bit is returning. So my argument would be spend the time/money on the bog and leave the remaining 0.98km of sustainable trail alone.

Similarly Baildon had some boggy bits, but most of it was ok.

write to your MP or maybe the daily mail.

I should add that both Leeds and Bradford have *a lot* of things to prioritise over trail maintenance.

Get in touch with your RoW peeps

http://www.bradford.gov.uk/bmdc/contact_us/contact_us_by_telephone/rights_of_way_contact_details

They are bike friendly.

Ginny at CTC is also very proactive in the Baildon area.

http://singletraction.frankencrank.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3599

Do you know what happened with that bw? Not sure if it affects the route I'd normally take around that area but any downgrade is bad news. Am I right in thinking though that there's a time limit to contesting the definitive map, and that limit is imminent? Either way I'll stick to my own interpretation of what I should ride until something changes.

Let's not forget how much these ' improvements' cost.
There are a million things that need sorting before the councils ruin our favourite tracks. It's happening all over Surrey , yet our roads remain a disgrace and the hospitals a mess.

Not just "our" tracks. They are shared with other users. The selfishness of some people. 🙄

indeed. One persons technical trail is another persons eroded mess

"Improved tracks" can be further improved by the Midnight Motocrosser...

Just a hint 🙂

I believe it's heading for some kind of review.

wasn't there a thread on this recently..?

stating that if you contact your rights of way officer as a representative of a user group then it's possible to at least begin to discuss management appropriate to the main user regarding specific RoWs.. Kind of on a democratic basis.. so if no-one pipes up they leave it.. but if mainly wheelchair users and horsey types speak with them they bulldoze it.. I wander what might happen if MTBers made themselves heard..?

something along those lines

Ditch the skill compensator and go fully rigid?

I actually had a dream last night that they sanitised that trail next to lantern pike that comes out by the little mill inn 😕

stating that if you contact your rights of way officer as a representative of a user group then it's possible to at least begin to discuss management appropriate to the main user regarding specific RoWs..?

There is no place for offering practical advice about how people can get involved with the problems they see around them in the real world. What's wrong with just posting about it on an internet forum and leaving it there? 😈

Ok Mr Sonor, the best track around my way has been done. In the years I have ridden it I have only seen 2 walkers on it.
At a cost of £25000 it is now a 10 ft wide gravel trap. Wheels just don't work on it. So that's stuffed any potential wheel chair users or pram pushers. So who's being selfish now? This is supposed to be a mountain bike website after all.

i looked at getting involved with the local access group. a quick look at the meeting schedule revealed meetings held on a tuesday morning etc. hardly conducive to getting the public involved, but i'm sure very convenient for the coucil employees. 🙄

Trail Sanitisation - what to do?...

phone up your mates who have a BSO in the shed, the people who keep saying 'i'd love to get out on it more, but...' etc.

and take them out on a nice bike ride.

but i'm sure very convenient for the coucil employees.

don't we already have a very enthusiastic young member of the D-Mo massive on that group..? I'm sure someone was telling me about it the other week..

Find some new singletrack - don't tell everyone

Yunki,
he wasn't at the time on the list of members that i looked at, and i haven't seen him in a few months, so maybe he is now. interesting. i'll have to give the hobbity one a poke. 🙂 be very good if he is and i remember being surprised that he hadn't got himself on there, but similarly at the time, that particular group ( devon ) had most recently looked to get more landowners involved, rather than mountain bikers, though horse riders and walkers were represented.....
i think he was involved in one that more specifically related to the trust, and their land. it would be useful if he was on the county council one too.

It's not just about "sanitising" or upgrading paths, sometimes it's genuinely done badly- loose gravel tops, 3 metre wide motorways that are totally unsympathetic to the local area... All to often nobody's happy with the end result and that's a problem- it's one thing to "lose" a trail when other people benefit but not when it ends up a mess for everyone.

The trouble is just that different groups want different things from their paths and that's hard to accomodate. Impossible, maybe.

Yunki yep it was rangerbill I think who said to speak to local RoW team and tell them about good trails, something I vowed to do....and so far still haven't 😳

I know I always bang on about it, its still worth repeating: -

There is only a statutory responsibility for bridleways to be of a standard suitable for horses, although the appropriateness of the path for bikes is of course considered. It is a balancing act but ultimately it’s all about the horses; this is why some bridleways are resurfaced so that they effectively become sanitised for bikers.

But as TJ said, give it a few months and it'll bed in. There is also the problem with funding: -

There are a million things that need sorting before the councils ruin our favourite tracks

I agree in principle, but local authorities generally get given extra funding from central government for improvements of this type (called a ROWIP) as a Rights of Way Departments normal funding is a fraction of a percent of the authorities general expenditure.

My baseline (pre-ROWIP grants) RoW budget is around £75, 000 (thats nothing in the scheme of things and typical of the level of funding across the country), so I tend to look at it from the other perspective and ask why is the highways department spending for example £75, 000 on speed bumps (or road calming, or whatever its called) on road XYZ when I could put it to much better use? Or meals on wheels could double their provision? Or it could pay for 5 classroom assistants? At the end of the day each department is given £X,000 as thats what the lead members (who are democratically elected) decide.

As I go on to mention in my [url= http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/access-all-areas-a-rights-of-way-officers-view-part-1/ ]article[/url], RoW departments are told by central government at the very last minute when (or if) they will get extra money. We get told in February that you have £60, 000 extra this April and it MUST be spent by next April - yes, this means that sometimes projects are rushed and mistakes are made, but if it means bringing a majority of those 'wish list' contingency projects up and running then so be it. There are only 5 of us (really not meaning to sound hard-done to!) and we genuinely do our best.

If you're not happy please get in touch with your PRoW team and bring it up with the LAF, which neatly brings me on to: -

i looked at getting involved with the local access group. a quick look at the meeting schedule revealed meetings held on a tuesday morning etc. hardly conducive to getting the public involved, but i'm sure very convenient for the coucil employees

The council has ZERO say on what or how a LAF operates - thats the whole point of a LAF, as an independent oversight committee made up of the public to make sure the RoW department gets things right, and when/if we mess up they are (in my LAF, and also my experience of my neighbouring LAF's) on us like a tonne of bricks.

Like yunki says: -

contact your rights of way officer as a representative of a user group then it's possible to at least begin to discuss management appropriate to the main user regarding specific RoWs..?

Please ring your RoW department and get involved - make our voices heard!

Duggan - that was no dream but a hideous nightmare.

Sad thing is it's probably only a matter of time.

i just took a look at the devon countryside access forum site and checked that i wasn't just making stuff up. of the few meetings in their list i looked at, all the minutes show that they took place during working hours in the week. it just put me off, that's all.
sorry it didn't take much!
[url= http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/environmentplanning/public_rights_of_way/devon_countryside_access_forum/countrysideaccess-forummeetings.htm ]devon laf meeting minutes list[/url]

Ok Mr Sonor, the best track around my way has been done. In the years I have ridden it I have only seen 2 walkers on it.

So, and what?

At a cost of £25000 it is now a 10 ft wide gravel trap. Wheels just don't work on it. So that's stuffed any potential wheel chair users or pram pushers.

I can presume this is a bridleway with no car parks nearby? So why would there be wheelchairs or prams? What about the other users, such as ramblers and horse riders? Of course your reply of:

So who's being selfish now?

Means that those users don't count. It's only me, me, me.

Just a quick reply, 3m is the minimum for Bridleways as it allows two horses to pass side by side safely. Unfortunately we bikers are way down the list in terms of consideration. Horses are top. Horses don't like deep long puddles boggy ground and loose rocky ground. Crusher run or DOT type 1 is a preferred surface material due to its ability to compact predictably. Grass gravel (as used on PBW) is preferred for horses. Horses can struggle with grade reversal and rolling grade dips (IMBA specs) they prefer to step over small obstacles like stone cut off channels (which I hate with a Passion as I have to clean the buggers out all the time). What can you do, sign the ePetition about footpaths, set up a group like Singletraction and volunteer to help you ROW team to keep the eater off the trails.

To mr sonor again. Can you tell me just who has gained from the gravel?
It was a rocky track, so no mud it didn't lead between any areas of habitation. Are we to go on a sacred quest to ensure that every track is perfectly smooth so that if some unknown user ventures out into the nasty countryside they won't be spooked?
It is the countryside after all. Surely those awful mountainbikers are a bigger menace to this sensitive rambler than a bit of dirt. Are you going to give up biking just in case.
These are legitimate cycle paths that have been covered in gravel and rendered dangerous to ride.

As for budgets if they have money to waste on these projects they are being given too much, and I would like MY money back.

rangerbill - Member

Just a quick reply, 3m is the minimum for Bridleways as it allows two horses to pass side by side safely.

Who came up with that one? Farms/stables don't seem to require it.

I'm going to contest this three meters and clean bit - as far as I know there is no statutory surfaced width for bridleways. The british horse society push the widths they want to see but this doesnt mean its the law. Moreover if it was a shooting estate or a wind farm putting a 3m wide gravel track over the uplands there would be and often is quite a hoo ha about it.

For best practice in upland path construction look at the guides by the British Upland Footpath Trust and Scotish Natural Heritage.

To be honest a well designed and thought out trail rides well as a consequence of good practice in path building rather than because it was designed for bikes.

And finally, the money ultimately governs the look - how much and who pays. Countryside managment isn't totally devoid of mountain bikers its just they're very good a keeping professional role and personal interest apart. That's not to say people dont draw on their experiences - every argument batted about a forum, down a pub or on a ride will very probably have been looked into or put forward. The companies working on rights of way construction know how to build bike trails, many of them do - again though they do the job they are asked to.

In the course of my role with SingletrAction, I did a walk around a Local Council owned area with a view to improving access/creating a trail.
It was a mixed group, a horsey woman, Friends of..., RoW officer, me and the council bloke. What really stood out was how hard it would be to please everyone.

The horsey woman even asked if they would consider re tarmacking the road as it was a bit slippy! (you can imagine how smooth she wanted the BW).

The Friends of... lady was very concerned about a child being run over by a bike. I asked if it had happened? There hadn't even been a near miss!

I had my best, politicians hat on which is difficult for me. We were nearly back at the car park when two riders came past on a BW descent. The second rider slowed down but sadly the Steve Peat wannabe up front did his best to blow all my hard work!

As I have already said, my local RoW team are not anti bike so get in touch if you have any concerns about your local BW's.

Also, the ramblers have a voice because they are united. We on the other hand prefer to moan on the internet..

An interesting range of responses... I think the best course of action for me is to get involved with the process. I did attend a laf meeting at Leeds but couldn't at the time see how I could add value, but I do think it's worth doing if not just to see how the system works and put my two penneth worth in.

Hi, I am active in Friends of Baildon Moor and have recently become a Right to Ride rep with the CTC, with an off-road focus. I've been to two LAFs in Bradford and more to follow; I was the only MTBer there.
I do have a good relationship with the council too who are quite supportive of biking.
Personally, I was against the surfacing of the path to Sconce on Baildon Moor, if that is was referred to earlier but I don't think this will be the norm here. There are plenty of other routes on BM which are good technically and away from most other users and sensitive areas.

David

BTW, on the thread: Downgrading of bridleways in Cullingworth
These are still ongoing after 10 years or so. The first, uncontested by the council, is going to public enquiry in Jan 2012. The other one will go to another PI in the summer.Both are opposed by range of groups doing good work, though I not sure how co-ordinated we all are.
Any new evidence as to use prior to 1952 as anything other than a footpath is important.

I remember an article that Janet Street Porter did in a paper a while ago.
She is a keen rambler and was moaning about the approaches to some mountains being paved.
So it's not just bikers moaning.

To mr sonor again. Can you tell me just who has gained from the gravel?

Whoever sold it to the council contractors? I've no idea what kind of gravel it is or even where the trail is. And honestly I couldn't give a ****.

Are we to go on a sacred quest to ensure that every track is perfectly smooth so that if some unknown user ventures out into the nasty countryside they won't be spooked?

So is this track Gravelly or smooth? Or are you somehow referring that the councils in this country have limitless resources to "sanitise" every bridleway. Which they don't. I'm with TJ on this, there are plenty of trails around that don't get this treatment and those that do will be weathered soon enough, surely the few trails that are smoothed out are a benefit to other users who like us mountain bikers may want to use them.

It is the countryside after all. Surely those awful mountainbikers are a bigger menace to this sensitive rambler than a bit of dirt. Are you going to give up biking just in case.

This mountainbiker understands that there are other users of the countryside that may require different kinds of trail surface in order to access it. There are plenty of trails of all kinds for all to share.

These are legitimate cycle paths that have been covered in gravel and rendered dangerous to ride.

In that case they must be legitimate for other users as well. Perhaps instead of bleating about the temporary loss of a rough trail surface on an internet forum, you actually find out why it was done.

As for budgets if they have money to waste on these projects they are being given too much, and I would like MY money back.

A waste in your narrow me, me, me opinion. Your not from the south of the country are you?