[Closed] Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

rp - I agree. So maybe a smaller angle of attack on a bigger wheel means less spring compression, but then this would be counterbalanced by the greater mass of the larger wheel - so maybe you shouldn't care too much about angle of attack for a bike with suspension

Aracer, didn't mean my last post as debunking what you were saying, the angle numbers are right way to look at it. More making the point that comparing the numbers as giant etc do to evaluate one over another isn't telling much of the story, or an oversimplified version of it.

@mattjg - actually shouldn't cranks be different lengths for different riders (given differences in body sizing and ability to "put power down") ? On an MTB there may be ground clearance issues but I would guess road bike racing has rules for this stuff - no ?

roverpig - Member

With perfect suspension it is just the wheel and fork lowers that move up and down.

And since there's no such thing as perfect suspension, there's plenty of margin for angle of attack to be useful in

@mattjg - actually shouldn't cranks be different lengths for different riders

yes, or more accurately, for different leg lengths, you don't want to have the knee either too closed or too open at the top and bottom of the cycle

compare me (5'7") so some people I ride with (6'2"), it makes no sense for us all to be on the same size crank. (I ride 170mm).

dno about road rules

Has anyone done any real blind testing of the different wheel sizes?

I realise there may be ethical issues regards sending visually impaired people out on bikes so I propose some sort of large tutu or hooped dress to cover the bike or maybe a large 'cone of shame' from the vets.

the thing I find funny about all these wheel size arguments, is that the first production "mountain bike" was originally intended to run a 700C wheel with big volume knobbly tire (what we now call 29'er)

the originators tested both 700 x 2.1" (29'er) and 26" x 1.95" and actually preferred the performance benefits of the larger wheel / tire combo.

but for a supply problem with the 700C knobbly tire (in contrast, Schwinn had a warehouse full of 'Beach Cruiser' 26" knobblies), what we have always called the "mountain bike" with its legacy 26" wheels, would have actually been a 29'er from day one of mass production

I spent most days since 1986 riding 26" wheels on the dirt, and since getting a 29'er last Winter, have not looked back or ever missed the smaller size

once you learn to ride the larger wheel properly (not a test ride, or jumping on a mate's 29'er for a lap) the benefits become very noticeable, and for me its all about being able to go faster whilst expending less effort

I can turn the dirt trail into a pump track more effectively with the bigger wheel

Schwinn with their "beach cruiser" tire in 26" provided the business confidence for the originators of the production mountain bike to go ahead with their ugly duckling

It's not about looks, but 29ers are ****ing hideous. Never seen a nice one. As I said though, it's not about looks and if a few people prefer them then great.

If you'e going on looks alone then 650 edges it 😆

That black 29 enduro (posted a few days back) looked very [i]right [/i]for a big bike.

edit:
[img] [/img]

I find that even if something doesn't look great initially, if it functions really well the looks grow on me. I'm that shallow.

However Anthem 29ers really would have to work very well indeed.

I shall persevere falling into holes in dead trails on my Anthem 26er 🙂

The people saying 'try what you like' and ride it - even in fact that rather good 'how to be a mountainbiker' video with its 'pick a wheel size':

The point is, that 26" is being [u]removed [/u]from your option list. Do you get it? The market is being artificially shifted, like some kind of autocratic bike company run nanny state. (Which is odd, given most of those firms were started by hippies). You won't be able to buy good Maxxis tyres anymore, you'll be getting cheap, shoddy rubber from a random Chinese seller on eBay.

On a side note, if you want to roll over things easier, simply rotating your hands behind the bars, rather than on top, makes a world of difference. First thing I learnt from Jedi.

Do you get it?

nope

well, buy what you want then 😀

Aracer, didn't mean my last post as debunking what you were saying

No worries - I didn't take it as such, but you made a good point and I thought it worth seeing what difference it made to the numbers. I agree that the numbers don't tell the whole story - as I keep pointing out, I only did them to prove that the Giant numbers are actually lies.

Oh and I forgot to give you a 😉 for:

Unicycles for all then eh

The point is, that 26" is being removed from your option list. Do you get it? The market is being artificially shifted, like some kind of autocratic bike company run nanny state. (Which is odd, given most of those firms were started by hippies). You won't be able to buy good Maxxis tyres anymore, you'll be getting cheap, shoddy rubber from a random Chinese seller on eBay.

And that's where the anti 650b/29er brigade lose. You can still buy top end 26" bikes and you will be able to buy good quality 26" rubber for as long as your bike lasts. Why on earth would Maxxis or any one else stop selling some thing there's a huge market for? In my opinion statements like this are just as daft as the bawls Giant and the like are spouting.

Think about that from the point of view of tyre companies and shops. For them, 650b is a zero sum game- since it's all about selling new bikes to old customers, they might need a couple of sets of new tyres but once that's done it's just the same old game.

So, will they want to have to produce and supply 50% more tyres than they used to, in order to maintain pretty much the same level of sales?

And that's where the anti 650b/29er brigade lose. You can still buy top end 26" bikes and you will be able to buy good quality 26" rubber for as long as your bike lasts. Why on earth would Maxxis or any one else stop selling some thing there's a huge market for? In my opinion statements like this are just as daft as the bawls Giant and the like are spouting.

No 26" Fox forks after 2014, Enve have stopped making 26" rims. Sure Enve are niche but it's the start.

There was never an argument to get rid of 26" from most of the 29" movement as far as I can see.

No 26" Fox forks after 2014,

And that affects the availability of 26er tires how?

So even if I want a new set of forks, will my 26ers not fit into 650 or 9er fox forks?

650b? You gotta move with the times.

I'll be dusting down my Betamax video, watching the laser disc, listening to some tunes on my Sony Mini-disc and surfing the web on my Apple Newton ..... quietly sipping my Coca cola Dasani.

No 26" Fox forks after 2014, Enve have stopped making 26" rims. Sure Enve are niche but it's the start.

There was never an argument to get rid of 26" from most of the 29" movement as far as I can see.

Don't buy Fox or get the 650b version. Who are Enve?

For every X isn't doing 26" you'll be able to find X+20 that are. Why on earth would any one stop making parts they already make if there's still a market for it? It makes no business sense to a company that's main aim is to make money. While it's worth their while they will produce them. Calm down.

So, will they want to have to produce and supply 50% more tyres than they used to, in order to maintain pretty much the same level of sales?

As mentioned above, while the 26" tyres that have already had R&D money spent on them and are churned out for pence but sold for £50 are still in demand they will be made. You can still buy brand new amber walled Panaracer Smokes if you look.

The only time 26" parts will dry up will be if there's no money in them. This will only happen if all the people getting so upset about being 'forced' on to a different wheel size go out and buy 650b/29er.

JCL - Member

No 26" Fox forks after 2014,

if you're in the market for new fox forks in 2015, just get the 27[s].5[/s]" version.

they'll be more or less exactly the same.

chestrockwell - Member

As mentioned above, while the 26" tyres that have already had R&D money spent on them and are churned out for pence but sold for £50 are still in demand they will be made. You can still buy brand new amber walled Panaracer Smokes if you look.

You do realise tyre companies already don't stock and supply every tyre they've developed and made, even when there's demand?

Basic economics, if you're going to sell 10 items it's better to sell 10 of 1 item than 1 of 10 items. To keep their margins the same they'll either be increasing prices or reducing selections.

The Smoke is a recent reissue btw.

The Smoke is a recent reissue btw.

yes, and that's because the market really wanted it!

just proves that if there's genuine demand someone will supply the parts and take the profit quite happily

You do realise tyre companies already don't stock and supply every tyre they've developed and made, even when there's demand?

Basic economics, if you're going to sell 10 items it's better to sell 10 of 1 item than 1 of 10 items. To keep their margins the same they'll either be increasing prices or reducing selections.

The Smoke is a recent reissue btw.

I don't disagree with you Northwind, they will not make them if they don't sell but while there's a market they will. It'll take one hell of a shift and a long time for 650b tyres to out sell 26". Why would they produce an older model when they improve it and release a new version? If they do not produce a new version the current model will be the most up to date to that's what they'll keep selling, for as long as it makes them money.

And yes, I am aware the Smoke was re-issued. 😉

You guys still on about this? I've just ridden around the world in the meantime 😀

statements like this are just as daft as the bawls Giant and the like are spouting

come on only four more posts to get to an eleventh page! you're not trying!

I agree, this has probably been my favourite whelk size thread so far, and while it has been active it does seem to have prevented any other more annoying ones from starting

whelk size? 😆

I think you're just being shellfish.

lol

11!

Well done everybody. I thought I was going to have to continue the discussion on the relevance of attack angle or debate whether a unicycle really has a constantly varying head angle for a while there. But at least we've been spared that.

Now, onward and upward to page 12.

I think the marketing may be working!

Saw my first chav on a 650b tonight, or it may have been a 29er. It was dark he was on the pavement and had no lights.

If you're worried about 26 tyres... just buy and fit DH ones (I do anyway).

erm GrahamH that may have been me was it in west london?

"man seen riding a 650B mountain bike shocker"!

move along now please, nothing to see here

Well personally I think breasts are great.

Sorry , wrong thread.

Scott: "[b]When discussing the pros and cons of the big wheeled bikes, shorter riders find themselves in an ambivalent situation. They want to benefit from the 29” wheels, but suffer from the negative effects when fit is considered. Additionally, the increase in rotational weight challenges many lower watt producing riders, so the performance gains are negated when the rider cannot accelerate the wheel system as quickly. The solution for many riders is 27,5”. The new wheelsize standard combines the best of both worlds, 29” and 26”."[/b]

So it's your fault you short arsed, low watters!

Just building on the reasons why bigger wheels and suspension retain speed better is that they preserve what ever forward momentum you have.

Smaller wheels, the greater the reaction force to hitting the bump in the horizontal direction when considering the same size bump.

Suspension allows the wheel to move out the way dissipating some of the impact in the direction suspension movement rather all in the momentum direction.

Vectors.

Additionally, the increase in rotational weight challenges many lower watt producing riders, so the performance gains are negated when the rider cannot accelerate the wheel system as quickly.

BS

Difference in size 26 to 29 is ~10%. Given a rim/tyre/sealant weight of 1kg per wheel (light, but a bit heavier than what I have for 26) then that's 200g extra in total. For a system weight for light rider of 70kg (60kg rider, 10kg bike) and given weight at the edge of the wheel counts double for acceleration, that will make a 0.6% difference to acceleration.

Anybody who reckons they can detect a 0.6% difference in acceleration needs to get themselves tested for exceptional ability, as you're way off the scale. Given you spend lots of your time rolling (where there's far more than 0.6% advantage to 29 over 26) than accelerating, it's clear where the advantage lies.

All the above holds true for a comparison between 27[s].5[/s] and 29, except the differences are a bit smaller.

The solution for many riders is 27,5”. The new wheelsize standard [s]combines the best of both worlds,[/s] is somewhere between 29” and 26” in terms of advantages and disadvantages, but near enough 26" that it's hard to tell the difference

So it's your fault [b]Scott and Giant[/b] you short arsed, low watters! [b]are just a good excuse for the marketing men[/b]

So.. wait.. 650b is 25mm larger diameter than 26" yes? So 12.5mm larger radius.

Does that mean that on my bikes with plenty of mud clearance I could rebuild the wheels with 650b rims and choose tyres carefully and still be ok?

I only ask because I can forsee 26" tyres becoming harder to find, especially in XC varieties.

depends my 650b rims with 2.4 Hirollers on are over 28 inches

I said careful tyre choice...

Love it 'cart wheeled bikes'

More factoids. 29" is faster.

A sweet bike regardless.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/First-Look-2014-BMC-Trailfox-TF01-29,6572/Slideshow,0/bturman,109

that graph is quality

[img] ?1383610146[/img]

hey JCL - I was beginning to worry something had happened to you, what with this thread going dead for a few days 😆

I was busy pushing 29" propaganda on other forums.

Oh good that's all right then:-) I had images of you trapped out on a trail somewhere deep in the forest having been squashed by letting one of those big-wheeled heavy 29er bikes fall on you 😆

Poor 2013 champ Steve Smith wont get much for his winning run bike hey?