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Do tell us more about the 64deg head angle trail bikes you were riding 20 years ago.
Please no, we are already aware just how awesome geex is.... 🙂
@geex:
"The guy who won putting almost a minute into his next competitor this weekend doesn’t ride a long bike.
He rides a Medium Nukeproof Mega
with:Not overly slack 65deg H/A
Not overly long 435mm reach
Not overly long 435mm chainstays
Not overly long 1187mm wheelbase
Not low in the slightest 10mm BB drop
That’s pretty close to the geometry of his DH bike from 2005 so certainly nothing new in a gravity assisted off road time trial ...."
Correct!
EWS Enduro races are great for bike development.
"Long and slack" discussion: professional bikers are faster with bikes which fit them perfectly. Too long and too slack turns an Enduro into a too big ship...
Yes - very long and very slack Enduro might be fun and stable and it might "feel fast". And that's o.k..
But EWS shows: fast is what matches the biker in an perfect manner. And professional Enduro bikers avoid bikes which are too stable...
Aerobatic pilots fly very unstable machines. Formula 1 racing cars are pretty unstable as well...
No one just rocks up to their LBS with a pile of cash and no idea, nowadays.
You base that statement on what exactly? When I got back into biking about 6 years ago that's exactly what I did, as did my mates. I'm sure plenty of folks still do.
It's easy to say you only have yourself to blame if you get the wrong bike, but if you were a beginner who went online tomorrow to do some research you could be forgiven for coming away with the impression that something with 425 mm of reach is going to be detrimental to your riding..
@tpbiker:
Yes. Best approach to the sport maybe to join a local club.
The huge LBS shops with 200 mountain bikes: guess difficult for them to quickly find out which bike the customer really needs. For beginners I feel sorry when they go to the LBS and end up with an totally wrong bike.
All these different bikes: XC, XC racing, trail, all mountain, freeride and and and Enduro.... - there is a good reason for those. Difficult for the LBS to recommend the correct bike, difficult for the beginner. Whom to blame?
@chakaping I was talking to the Chief but if you're genuinely interested rather than being facetious one of those sub 64° bikes was a 100mm Taiwanese factory Alu XC hardtail with a 100mm fork (a lucky find) the others were all DH bikes (some with longer forks, altered linkages etc.). The term "trail bike" was yet to be coined by the cycle industries marketing people (well stolen from the motorcyle guys much like enduro) but yes they rode what people now call trails. to me "trails" referred to sets of dirt jumps back then.
@rOcKeTdOg For most 160mm 2018/19 bikes. small would be my preferred choice for size. Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
Sam Hill didn’t use to ride his iron horse up hill though. I’m not sure it’s all to do with enduro style riding either , cotic have done the longer top tube thing on the new flare max and soul and they sit on the trail end of their range , the downtime podcast with cy from cotic is worth a listen for the theory behind it . There is a bit more to it than just adding an inch on to the top tube to make it all work together .
Ironhorse Sundays actually ride uphill surprisingly well with a long enough seatpost.
Use exo tyres and you could easily build one to 34lb
I built up my old skool Kona Bear which was once considered cutting edge gnarpoon in its day
cramped, twitchy & steep,
Ill go stick to my trendy long, low n slack enduro beast, thanks !
Ha ha. A Kona bear was never considered cutting edge. Horrible high, steep heavy things. Sure you didn't mishear someone call it "cut n shut"?
goes off to dig out mbuk from 2002............
prepare to eat your words geex
http://www.mtbr.com/product/older-categories-bikes/2002-full-suspension/kona/bear.html
*cough 🙂
LOL at some of the reviews:
Solidly built!!!! 4x4 suspention, bulletproof frame
fantastic geometry
Solid bike! Incredibly versitle. You can take this bike anywhere. Up steep hills and down nasty hills this bike holds its own and maintain perfect control.
Weakness:None that I can think of
This bike is solid. Upgraded from a hard tail and my bombs down hills have improved dramatically. You pick up so much speed and don't realize how fast you are going. I recently beefed up my front end with the Marzocchi Z1 Drop Off fork with Truvativ riser bar and stem. THis bike is really good bomb material, but it also climbs up the hills like a hard tail.
Sounds like a modern enduro/trail bike...
Although a 70 degree HA and 100mm travel front and rear was pretty much cutting edge back then...
@rOcKeTdOg For most 160mm 2018/19 bikes. small would be my preferred choice for size. Thanks for confirming my thoughts
5ft 11 on a small trail bike? The only thing confirmed is that you're on the wrong size bike if it's to be used for "trail"
2002 you say?
How about 130mm front 115mm rear suspension travel. 65° H/A 12.6" BB height. 430mm stays, 1140mm wheelbase, 420mm reach?
Yeah. The seat tube angle was completely whack and the shock leverage ratio was huge but still. Those things were made to go flat out, rail turns, and jump everything in sight. Oh hold on that's not really like your average UK Enduro event goer at all is it? 😉
(not my one btw)
Where's your shop rOcKeTdOg? for obvious reasons
The seat tube angle was completely whack
As I've found, my Patriot is reasonably close to a modern Enduro bike in most respects except the seat angle, which is not that bad but still not great. Now wish I had a large though 🙂
However, I now realise it was pretty grim until I fitted a dropper - or started dropping the seat on every singletrack or descent. That much travel really needs you to get low.
I still miss my enduro sx. It was an awesome bike but definitely didn’t like climbing.
Chainstays were a bit snappy too.
My mates 2002 Enduro looked like this
And it was steeper & heavier than my bear!
Haha.
Sounds like the PO touched some good issues to get the bike people going.
Neat discussion!
For me always amazing: a mountain bike seems to be such a simple machine...
And then you find out: it's not!
And ... love my trail bikes. These new forks. These new rims and tyres. And don't need a modern long travel Enduro at all. And at the same time: believe that these Enduros are partly the reason why my trail bikes are so good right now...
One of my trail bikes is a 1 k Bossnut V2...
(And to make things more complex: the "old geo" hardtails with new forks and good tyres are also "fun"....? How is this possible?)
...and just take a look at the new santacruz Blur and highball. xc is back in fashion ...and probably suits many for ‘mountain biking’ for lots of us here...
2002 you say?
How about 130mm front 115mm rear suspension travel. 65° H/A 12.6″ BB height. 430mm stays, 1140mm wheelbase, 420mm reach?
Yeah. The seat tube angle was completely whack and the shock leverage ratio was huge but still. Those things were made to go flat out, rail turns, and jump everything in sight. Oh hold on that’s not really like your average UK Enduro event goer at all is it?
(not my one btw)
That's a four-cross style bike, am I right?
Basically a mini DH bike (hence the 'may as well not be there' seat post angle) designed to go flat out downhill, rail turns, jump everything in sight, and win races.
But not be pedaled up hill.:)
2002 seemed to be the early days of four-cross, so I presume they took a DH bike, made it lighter, less travel, same HA etc.
If Enduro races had no transfers between stages with long uphill rides all the racers would be riding full on 200mm bikes.
That's the crucial difference - yes current enduro and trail bikes have the same HA and are as long or longer than as DH bikes from 10-15 years ago, which means they're as good or better downhill, but they can also ride uphill extremely competently.
For me personally, due to the type of riding I'll be doing a mega-enduro 170mm gnarpoon feels slow and sluggish on the tight, slow, flat/up/down singletrack I ride, which means I prefer bikes with 66-67 HA, 140-150mm travel max and long but not excessive reach (I am 6ft 3 so need something proportionate to my size!) 😀
Nothing wroing with proper slack and long bikes though, I'd love a pole evolink in my garage at some point - it would be far from ideal for my local trails but for those days when you want to go really fast down and climb like a mountain goat up... 🙂
If Enduro races had no transfers between stages with long uphill rides all the racers would be riding full on 200mm bikes.
No they wouldn't.
I tried to go more progressive on reach and BB height with my modded Zero AM but it really didn’t work for me - I’ve wound it back to the stock set up and it’s good but not quite right. It’s still better than my very tall and rather short Cotic Soul was with a 140mm fork and when I’m riding at my best it’s hard to fault but it’s a bit intolerant of less good riding days - I’d rather the BB was a bit higher, the head and seat angles a bit slacker, the chain stays a bit longer and the reach shorter (partly so i could use a 50mm rather than 35mm stem).
My Spitfire has been tweaked in various directions, ending 2 degrees slacker, 10mm shorter chain stays and a bit lower and longer than when I first got it. Whenever I get on it it feels right.
“I do find it interesting you’ve chosen to look at a Cotic. In my mind one of the worst companies for heralding each years slight advancement in ideas/geometry/design as their idea. and also the best idea ever. only to contradict themselves 18mths or so later to fit with current trends.”
I know what you mean about some of their stuff. But even if they’re not always the most original designs they tend to be very well executed, and the customer service is outstanding. I did badger Cy with quite a few emails suggesting an updated BFe design and then one turned up - which seems to tick all the boxes geometrically, just a question of checking if my idea of riding a small with a 50mm stem rather than a medium with a 35, at 5’11, is a crazy idea. With a reach of 427mm on the small, same as my medium Spitfire, I suspect not!
For me, slacker than 66deg feels too slack. Just doesn't work - great for ploughing through the faster stuff but feels a bit sluggish everywhere else.
I love that the mtb manufacturers are trying new setups, wheel sizes, ergonomics and everything in between though ... but you definitely need to try before you buy, and as someone said before, be honest about the riding you do, and your overall level of gnardom.
No they wouldn’t.
Why not? If you take out the un-timed uphill transfers all you're left with is the timed downhill stages, it would basically be a multi-stage downhill race. If riders don't have to ride/push their bikes back up the hill then they're free to focus their bikes on going as fast as possible down each stage. Enduro bikes are already 170mm travel so another 20-30mm won't hurt especially if they don't have to be pedaled anywhere.
Take a current enduro bike, make it 200mm front and rear, make the seat angle reasonable for the odd pedally sections, make it slack and long... job done 😀
Of course, take out the uphill transfers and it's no longer an endurance event, it's a downhill race.
The guy who won putting almost a minute into his next competitor this weekend doesn’t ride a long bike.
He rides a Medium Nukeproof Mega,,,,,,
That’s pretty close to the geometry of his DH bike from 2005 so certainly nothing new in a gravity assisted off road time trial .
Guy who rode mid-2000 DH bikes bloody fast rides enduro bikes with similar geometry bloody fast too....... shocker!
A mate who has raced DH at a decent level since mid 90's and came from a BMX back ground so has a riding style developed on short bikes loves his Capra. It feels familiar and suits his very ingrained riding style.
Me on the other hand coming into 'serious' mountain biking more recently with less (ie no) developed or pre-learnt style I'm more than happy to take the extra feeling of confidence I get riding a LLS bike. I did demo a few bikes with differing geometries and bought the one I felt most confident on / enjoyed riding the most which happened to be LLS, though not extremely LLS.
Seb Stott's piece on adding weight to the bike, ie Chris Porter's theory, raises some good points about it enabling slightly less confident/able riders to go that little bit quicker yet doing nothing for the really good riders who would ride out any jitteriness for example. Could it be a similar thing for LLS.
In short, people are different and have different preferences, riding styles, riding ability, etc. And some folk are just bloody fast whatever you put them on.
“Why not? If you take out the un-timed uphill transfers all you’re left with is the timed downhill stages, it would basically be a multi-stage downhill race. If riders don’t have to ride/push their bikes back up the hill then they’re free to focus their bikes on going as fast as possible down each stage. Enduro bikes are already 170mm travel so another 20-30mm won’t hurt especially if they don’t have to be pedaled anywhere.”
DH travel and geometry is only quickest on wide, fast, rough and steep tracks. As soon as things get tighter and flatter bikes that turn more easily, pump more efficiently and pedal better have an advantage.
As it is some enduro pros swap between 150-170mm bikes and 130-140mm bikes, depending on the course (though with 160mm+ forks). They don’t choose the shorter travel bikes to make the transfers easier.
The SX I posted a pic of above was sort of designed for dual slalom racing (more popular in the US and Europe) and messing about on. The frame actually derived from the original spesh enduro that kimbers posted a pic of above. a 125mm travel XC (or had they coined "All-mountain" by then?) bike. oh.. and they were lighter than Kona bears. 😉 Specialized basically took the rear stays from that. beefed them up a tiny bit and mated them to a lower slacker stronger front end, changed the linkage slightly and made it adjustable (which is why they had such low BBs) and sold them with either coil or air rear shocks. They didn't really work too well with a coil as they were very high leverage ratio but not hugely progressive.
Not many people used them for 4x as the nature of the sport meant 9 times out of 10 the first rider to the first corner won. and a hardtail is simply a lot faster out the gate. slalom was actually a more aggressive riding style as it was raced in separate lanes and against the clock as well as your competitor.
Specialized actually still made the short travel SX up until only a few years ago. a different design to the original but still a fun/strong little short travel bike.
People ARE riding more extreme terrain today than ever before, whether at Trail Centres or out in the wilds. Modern, light, efficient bikes mean you can ride more and push/carry less.
I dunno, some of the old Northshore trails around Vancouver were pretty mental. There's also old decommissioned trails up down that area which would be hard by todays standards never mind when they were built.
As for the EWS, it's horses for courses. The Rocky Mountain guys had Slayers and Altitudes last year and most often rode the altitude (though I think it was beefed up a tad in travel) and this year have both of those plus the BC edition Instinct. I think both Jesse and Remy are on the 29er this year, but it really depends what you're looking for what where you're riding.
Why not? If you take out the un-timed uphill transfers all you’re left with is the timed downhill stages, it would basically be a multi-stage downhill race
I'd have a look at some of the lengths of stages and profile, there is no way anyone would be quicker on a dh bike, which is effectively what a 200mm bike is.
It's a common misconception that it's a mini dh race, it ain't. CGG is spot on, lots of the guys ride 140mm bikes, and 160 or thereabouts at the likes of finale.
I am intruiged as to what bike in the early 90s you still ride amd excuse my ignorance, but I am curious.
I have actually been riding sub 64deg H/A bikes since the 90s. and properly low BB heights for even longer.
In the early 90s if you had...
But if I was reasonably new to biking and rocked up at my lbs with a wedge of cash for a new bike to take to the local trail centre with my mates, I’d no doubt end up with a something with that is inspired by the latest trends around geometry.
Surely you would've come out with a something akin to a double diamond steel XC frame with a 71/73 head/seat angle?
Such a good discussion! Like the thread. Different opinions, different bikers which love biking and know what they are talking about. Great!
And even some bike manufacturers learn that EWS is not "long travel" plus "very long" plus "very slack". Best example maybe: YT.
Downhill YT with the Tues and Aaron Gwin the #1 in UCI downhill.
EWS: YT had an professional EWS team in 2017 (no idea about this year). Maybe they were out of luck, only had flat tyres or whatever. But the Capra wasn't the bike for EWS. Around 30 company teams and YT finished with the Capra- overall 2017 - on one of the worst rankings...
The Capra is in my opinion a neat bike. Long and slack and (too much?) travel. The customers love the bike. The reviewers. But 2017 in EWS Enduro racing a total failure.
So ... EWS is not "pushing" for long and slack and super long travel. A downhill-like bike won't win on EWS Enduro race tracks!
Small (and good) companies like cotic try to push into a market niche with long and slack. Fine. No problem with that. The Cotic owners are more than happy with their bikes.
But when they build Enduro bikes and when they ever try EWS thy will learn that this formula is not the solution for fast professional Enduro race bikers?
Maybe great for hobby bikers which love these stabel bikes.
Two points:
1. The top riders would win or podium on any other team’s bikes - or indeed most enduro bikes on the market. Put Sam Hill on a Capra and he’d do similarly well.
2. Cotic do race enduro in the UK, often podium and their riders were racing their low low slack longshot bikes last season, before they were released.
Cotic do race enduro in the UK, often podium and their riders were racing their low low slack longshot bikes last season, before they were released.
I'm not sure they are any lower than the previous version though. Well the FlareMax doesn't seem to be, not looked at the Rocket.
Cotic bikes: great bikes.
If they are fast they should try:
http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/event_news/uk-ews-qualifiers-370445
Sam Hill: I'am not talking about Sam Hill. More interesting rank #5 to #15 or so.
Capra 2017, YT team, EWS, Capra: they were one of the worst teams, worse than Fuji team...
Yes - no chance to get in the range of a Sam Hill. But the Capra was extremely slow 2017...
And at the same time: this doesn't say anything about the fun level of the bike. Capra bikers are a happy bunch. But EWS is nice to check if an Enduro bike is fast as well. And if there are professional teams (like YT 2017) and they end up way at the end - ranking #25 or so - they were out of luck or the bike was slow...
Rank #1 ... #5 is reserved for the top bikers. Agree.
But the team ranking gives an indication of the bike quality as well. Worse than #20 are the "slow bikes" for me.
Note: I'am a trail biker. Bike a Calibe Bossnut V2 and only interested in EWS. Don't have an Enduro bike and judge "fun" as more important than "speed".
It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about places 1 to 5 or 6 to 50 - the rider matters FAR MORE than the bike. But I am amused that you think EWS team success determines how fast you a bike is...
The longshot Rocket is 10mm lower BB than the previous version.
Cotic do race enduro in the UK, often podium and their riders were racing their low low slack longshot bikes last season, before they were released.
Swinny is PMBA champion… and yes, he used the Rocket prototypes. Mind you, he was champion the previous year as well… which I think was on a standard previous gen Rocket. The rider is the winner, not the bike. Anyway, he and Chay are on production new Rockets this year…
The longshot Rocket is 10mm lower BB than the previous version.
Ah yes, so it is. That would explain why they talk about the longshot geometry being lower. It's not on the FlareMax where BB drop has stayed pretty much the same (with the same fork), but as you say on the Rocket it has dropped 10mm.
Anyway, back to the discussion. It's fascinating to hear about what works for the EWS racers, but I suspect it has very little relevance to what might work for me.
Don't own an Enduro bike - and know that my Bossnut V2 would fall apart in such a race and won't win - even with Sam Hill...
Maybe wrong - but my understanding: the Enduro bikes are designed "around EWS" tracks and Enduro bikes are race machines.
For professional teams: over all the EWS races / one year you will see a difference also of the bikes - not only the bikers.
Not talking about Sam Hill and rank #1 ...#5.
But rankings, below #20, average one year: these are the slow teams with slow bikes.
And 2017, EWS, Capra, YT: the Capra was very slow! Nearly to the end of the team ranking.
At the same time: YT Tues, downhill. UCI: #1
Conclusion for me (maybe wrong so): very long travel downhill geo - very long and slack - doesn't work on EWS race tracks.
EWS Enduro races are a test bed for Enduro bikes. Great to have this event. Not really clear for me how you get the idea that the bike doesn't count for EWS race ranking. It's the most important tool for the biker!
im still defending my bear!
megavalanche 2004?
i have the MBUK with their review from 2001 in somewhere, it was nice and short so 'flickble' as was the trend then, I had 120mm floats but it was hard work in the mega, even with the might of 180mm hope minis up front 😉
my mate had vanillas on his (heavier, steeper) enduro and I was a bit jealous of them for the alps
the bear is still in the garage but as I said my long, low slack enduro bike is far more fun!
haha. Great!
Agree: fun is much more important!
Specialized basically took the rear stays from that. beefed them up a tiny bit
they really didn't beef them up at all. they were identical to the standard enduro ones.
Conclusion for me (maybe wrong so): very long travel downhill geo – very long and slack – doesn’t work on EWS race tracks.
That conclusion probably IS wrong. The riders were slower, not the bikes… and Capras aren't "very long" anyway, are they?
Anyway, I'd agree that what is great for use at EWS events isn't necessarily great for you, or I, or any of us. Manufacturers do learn how to improve bikes for all of us by working with these fast as hell riders though… but as far as I can tell, all manufacturers work hard to apply those lessons in a way that is beneficial, not detrimental, for us lesser riders.
@kelvin: o.k. - let'a agree that that.
100 %. Also the trail bikes are getting - sooner or later - better from this racing stuff. The manufacturers use these EWS as test bed - and they learn quick.
Great. That was one thing I tried to express as well.
Cheers!
"Conclusion for me (maybe wrong so): very long travel downhill geo – very long and slack – doesn’t work on EWS race tracks."
Bad data leads to bad conclusions. My 140mm bike in stock form is longer and almost as slack as the original Capra, which was neither long, nor particularly low, nor particularly slack for a 170mm bike.