[Closed] This been done yet? (MBUK, suspension progression, getting all travel)

I bought a Pitch, it comes with the normal air can and I never used full travel even on uplift days in Spain, rocks + drops + fast should have mean it was running on the bump stops IMO! Also the high speed rebound seemed too quick as it felt fine over normal trail features, but big compressions made the back end kick right up on the rebound.

I swapped to the can to a high volume when I got back, then added the medium volume spacer. It's now brilliant. Masses more grip, doesn't kick back up after bombholes/big takeoffs, uses all the travel (but doesn't feel like it bottoms out) and generaly feels like it's got far more travel than it does. All round, it's significanlty better.

I've not ridden enough bikes to say that some are set up badly. But I think I know enouh to get my setup right. And maybe the small can works better with a less hefty rider so it might not have been Spesh's fault that it just didn't work. I'd say that very few people are average, so if buying a FS bike in the future I'd budget to have the shock tuned within a few weeks/months once I'd got an idea of where it could be improved.

Loads of people have told me my suspension's set up wrong, and I should be getting all the travel out of it on every ride. I've no idea why anyone could think that's true- maybe they only ever ride the same trail over and over?

Quite a good wee article I thought.

I've no idea why anyone could think that's true

because the mags and other so-called experts regularly trot out "your sus is sorted when it bottoms out once or twice per ride".

We’re in a fashion industry – if it was an engineering industry, the rear derailleur would have been consigned to road bikes years ago.

Chris Porter talks a lot of shit.

Chris Porter talks a lot of shit.

+1

Interesting to see the UK seems to buy suspension then lock it out more than any other country

[s]Chris Porter[/s] [b]All MTBers[/b] talk a lot of shit.

Most riders dont understand suspension. All they do is bounce it round the carpark as if that will tell them something about the bike.

What that tells you is they have no idea, and will probably agree with whatever marketing / internet tells them.

Some riders understand suspension, but being able to tell whats happening with your suspension on your ride is very hard. So an even smaller number of people get it right.

Most people can only cope with black and white answers and easy to understand physics - so marketing is dumbed down to that. Most people ride their bike as it came and ride round its compromises.

I know I'll (probably rightly) get slagged off for this but all of the above is the exact reason I stick with a hard tail.
I just can't be bothered with all the faff when my bike will get down 90% of stuff a full sus will, am I the only one?

Wot Trimix said.

I'd also add
MTBers like lots if knobs to twiddle and show off to justify their £700 forks. Give them preload and rebound and nowt else and they think a fork is crap. But that's all you need. The rest is just frippery.

All MTBers talk a lot of shit.

Fair point.

I just can't be bothered with all the faff when my bike will get down 90% of stuff a full sus will, am I the only one?

Nope same here, I still want a Transition Bandit though 😆

+1 for wot Trimix said.

Some of IMO notes.....

A lot of riders don't adjust the bike after getting the bike from the shop/online.
A lot are afraid to adjust the settings.
A lot do not notice the diffence when they adjust the setting by one or 2 clicks so don't bother after.
Xc racers tend to find the setting they happy with and leave it for the year, and once in a blue moon do a small adjustment to it for a one course.
DH adjust to each course.

I feel riders just need to be shown what the adjustments do, by basiclly going from end of the adjustment to the other (real fast rebound to real slow rebound) and saying what might happen/feel if you have it to fast or to slow rebound.

On "forks should use all the travel" I feel is a good place to start, which oftern come form setting the right amount of sag. then adjust from there to the rider feed back.
BUT it also depend on the type of trail you ride/how fast and the feel the rider likes.

If a rider can’t understand what high and low speed compression, rebound, preload, etc, is all about after so many decades

Really you need time to session a mixed terrain downhill with a notebook and fanny around with all the setting but TBH I just don't have the time/inclination. Setup sag, ride around on pavement and check how sus reacts under weight shifts, ride down a long flight of steps, ride off a few 3' drops, ride back up steps. Set my sus so it handles all those as I'd like, then go ride ride. Might make the odd tweak a knob or add/remove a few psi now and again but not much.

as for full travel, i'd expect to get it on some hard landings or fast repeated hits, if that sort of stuff isn't on a ride I'm happy with 80% travel. If you're not bottoming out at the limits of your riding then it would suggest your suspension is set up too firm or you're carting around too much travel....no?

Gunz - Member
I know I'll (probably rightly) get slagged off for this but all of the above is the exact reason I stick with a hard tail.
I just can't be bothered with all the faff when my bike will get down 90% of stuff a full sus will, am I the only one?

There's a differance between 'get down' and 'get down fast'. I can get down most things on a HT, possibly even 'get down' more. Trying to ride the same stuff quickly is easier on the FS though. andmy enjoymentis derived from going fast on technical stuff, not just getting down it.

I know what these all these things do and I can have a go at setting them all up but I'm buggered if I can ride a bit of trail and be able to say "yep a wee bit more high speed compression would make that section much easier/better/faster"

Try it and see. I regulalry ride the same track a few times on a ride and tweak the copression adjusters on the Lyrics one way or the other. It's usualy cyclical and I'll end up back where I started, but it's usualy possible to say "that rooty bit after the drop felt horrible", add another click of LSC to prop them up a bit and the front doesn't dive after the drop, then try again, better/worse, try the high speed (maybe it;s not that the forks dived, it's just compressing too much on the repeated roots). If that doesnt cure it then maybe your just crap 😛

How does this work then? I go around Glentress a few time, making some adjustments until I'm happy. Do I then write it all down somewhere for the next time?

I turn up at Golspie and so the same again. Laggan, Innerleithen etc. Now I have a handy record of exactly what setting I need for all of these palces.

Then I head off into the Highlands for a 60 miler.......

Nah. Just give me some suspension that "works" without having to fanny around with it. Climb-Trail-Descend? That's enough.

Just give me some suspension that "works" without having to fanny around with it.

I seem to remember mbuk way back saying quite a few downhillers were setting up their suspension to a happy medium and leaving it like that all year, might not be the best setup for that days race but they knew how their bikes would react to various stuff, no surprises. How true that was/still is I dunno.

edit just seen this

Josh Kissner, product manager, Santa Cruz:

“[b]Both[/b] major suspension companies

How does this work then?

RS have a list of recomended setings for various descriptions of trails in the handbook for the lyrics. I've never started on anything other than the basic (4,4,2 IIRC). If I do GT then i might add some LSC for berm baby berm, and take it off for innerleithen, but it works well enough in the normal setting, just tweak it every now and again if the trail isnt quite average.

It's not something I agonise over though.

"I seem to remember mbuk way back saying quite a few downhillers were setting up their suspension to a happy medium and leaving it like that all year, might not be the best setup for that days race but they knew how their bikes would react to various stuff, no surprises."

This is my approach. If i know what is going to happen, im going to be confident. When setting up, I iron out any anomalies, keep everything predictable, job done. Whilst out riding, my buddies know im mad keen on the tech (mechanical engineer) pointed out i hadn't touched my suspension in hours when they had been twiddling all day, i simply responded "it's set up, no need".

I dont buy into this DHers make adjustments based on what they're riding, most i know dont get suspension, and just leave it where they'll know what happens. It's normally the ones looking for excuses, dont know what they're doing which do the constant knob twiddling.

How true that was/still is I dunno.

It's very true. The most you'll ever hear of is a slight tweak here n there to cope with rough/smooth/fast/slowl/etc tracks. Same with MX stuff, I remember the American coverage trying to do weekly setup interviews with Carmichael's mechanic but canned it when they realised it barely changed!

I think the 'set your suspension up to use all your travel on most rides' quote leads to way too many riders having squidgy suspension to the detriment of their riding as they go faster and harder.

Rebound is probably more important than "using all your travel".

People also seem to forget that adjusting the sag adjusts the geometry of the bike.

Most riders dont understand suspension. All they do is bounce it round the carpark as if that will tell them something about the bike.

What that tells you is they have no idea, and will probably agree with whatever marketing / internet tells them.

Well said Trimix, i work in a bike shop, pretty much every bike we sell/service is a full suspension model of some kind or if it's a hardtail it has decent front forks, i'd say 90% of the folk who either buy a bike or bring their bike in for servicing have absolutely no idea when it comes to setting up or adjusting their suspension with any kind of knowledge as to why they're changing one setting for another, preload? - what's that?........rebound? - what's that?.....low speed compression damping? - Huh?......High speed compression damping? - wtf are you on about?.........spring rate?.......yeah...i like them springy & bouncy as they feel to be working better (i genuinely heard this from a customer).

I raced motocross for years so i have a pretty decent knowledge of suspension set-up and how to adjust it so i get the feel i desire as i used to have my black book of suspension, gearing and tyre choice settings written down for each motocross track and terrain conditions etc.. but to the average joe who buys a bike they have not got the slightest clue as to what works,why it works and frankly they couldn't give a toss either as long it bounces up and down they're happy, if the general state of bikes we get in for servicing is anything to go by then anything past occasionally throwing a bit of oil at the chain is above them.

Why don't the manufacturers offer one set of forks with a limited on/off switch on the crown for the generally inept and a full specification all singing/dancing special for those of us who know what we're doing rather than dumbing down our choices to their binary level of understanding?.

Interesting to see the UK seems to buy suspension then lock it out more than any other country

Must ensure all settings are adjusted for oil tempreture

If it's working well, you don't notice it, you just feel fast. You only notice it if there is a problem. Fork dive, for example.

If it's working well, you don't notice it, you just feel fast. You only notice it if there is a problem. Fork dive, for example.

But what if it could work a lot better for the sake of a couple of adjustments and you've never noticed it...?

For most riders once their settings are properly dialled in there shouldn't be much reason to change.

What's hilarious is because Fox listened to idiot consumers as opposed to racers, the new forks are divey pieces of crap and have been roundly slagged by reviewers/good riders!

Anyway, I use much firmer compression damping at places like Chicksands to give more trail feedback and pop off jumps and back off on rooty techy trails. I also alter rebound depending on the trail as well - eg do I want it fast or are there lots of big hits that give me a bucking sensation (so that I have to back it off a bit). It does genuinely alter the ride quality. I really despise these new CTD forks.

buzz-lightyear - Member

If it's working well, you don't notice it, you just feel fast. You only notice it if there is a problem

True dat. But doesn't follow that if you don't notice a problem, that it's working well- lots of people are oblivious.

[quote=bwaarp ]What's hilarious is because Fox listened to idiot consumers as opposed to racers, the new forks are divey pieces of crap and have been roundly slagged by reviewers/good riders!
Yep - imagine listening to the folk that actually have to buy the stuff 🙄

Well, they ended up with a far worse product. The forks are actually less forgiving on steep descents for the average consumer as the diveyness whacks the geo out!

There have been lots of other products in the past that were ruined when the consumer got what they asked for and then suddenly realized they hated it. Just wait till the 2013 fox stuff has good circulation amongst the consumer base and they'll be whining about the brake dive and wallowyness!

Now whilst I'll slag Bos off for their customer service, haven't you noticed that a lot of average riders have been raving about their products! Bos forks are harder too achieve full travel with than the new Fox stuff - but they are controlled! That's what counts!

Druidh +1. My favourite forks are my Pikes and my old Boxxers both of which only really have a rebound adjust. And they both feel awesome. I have a 55 rc3 which i just can't get to feel nearly as good, it also has more to faff with.

im a set and forget rider, i appreciate the tunability of the forks shocks to get it right initially and i want the happy medium to be slightly DH biased

ive ditched every fork lockout/lockdown/poploc/pushloc/compression-on-the-fly-adjusting/travel adjust for a change in riding style (i liked the spv on my old minutes - fit and forget)
i have the propedal "on" my rear sus almost all the time, only flicking it off when ive a particularly fun descent ahead

dual air revs
fox 36van RC2
RS Monarch

all understandable, tunable, but most importantly once set, dont need any pratting about with

"i ride bikes"

*sits back down*

All MTBers talk a lot of shit.

I like this!!

I really like this statement, and I absolutely include myself in this. We really do talk and obsess about utter utter shite as if it is even remotely important.

We said that man.

I think very few people ride to such a level where suspension setup really matters

It could be better but it's fine how it is

What is also interesting (annoying) is that with the group of guys I ride with only some fully understand suspension, however there are some who dont have a clue, never even adjust their saddle/bar/tyre pressures and still manage to ride really well and often better than me. Basturds.

Whereas I spend time on my own, tweaking settings, pressures etc, noting them down, comparing runs, sessioning bits of trail and I do this from a background of racing Enduro motorcycles to a good standard.

So its clearly possible to ride round any issues your poorly set up bike presents you with.

thepodge - Member

I think very few people ride to such a level where suspension setup really matters

I think that's absurd tbh. Everyone can benefit from their bike working properly.

There are degrees of "properly". For 99.999% of the population, it doesn't have to be that precise.

The 0.001% obviously includes professional riders, journalists and forum members that would like to be one of the aforementioned.

druidh has it

Yep,[i] Druidh[/i] is right. But what he's said there is a million miles from "very few people ride to such a level where suspension setup really matters".

I'll buy him a pint if I ever meet him

Actually Northwind, while that seems logical, I do have mates who would struggle to tell the difference.

Some actually like what I reckon is a badly handling bike, some who prefer it to dive under braking, some wouldnt know what slow speed compression was if it wollowed them into a tree, some who think that unless they use all their travel they have wasted their suspension etc etc.

So I agree things could be improved, but not everyone will notice, if that makes sence. Also a lot of people ride in their own style and comfort zone, hardly leaving that sort of trail.

It took me years to realise that my old diving forks were crap, then it took me years to realise that my old air shock was ramping up too much.

I think these changes took time to be noticed because my riding took years to improve.

People are all at different stages of riding not to mention styles and expectations.

So not all the improvments I like would suit others.
That different to saying they are better.

As to the new Fox CTD forks diving through their travel i have to agree wi this.

I have the 2013 Fox Talas 140mm fitted with CTD/ FIT cartridge and they drop through their travel to such an extent that i use 90psi in the air chamber when fox recommends i use 65psi for my weight, if i use 65 psi the forks pack right down into the crown and that's riding along forest roads never mind on techy trails. We've sold quite a few Ibis Mojo's of various builds and Lapierre's in the shop over the past few weeks and these all have the same problem with their Fox forks, if we set the forks up as per Fox's air pressure spec settings then they all drop through their travel at the slightest provocation and pack down to such an extent on downhill sections that folk have been crashing over the bars as they just will not return quickly enough or at all, and this is not the riders fault - some of these riders are very skilfull, so for now we have reached a sort of air pressure method that is whatever Fox recommends + 30 to 40% extra, for some riders we've had to increase pressure by as much 50% so Fox better get their finger out and admit they have fcued up. Obviously increasing air pressure affects how the for reacts to smaller hits so it's not ideal but it is a solution for the time being, but for forks that costs the best part of £800+ it's very-very poor indeed.

What i dont get about not bothering about getting suspension set-up somewhat right, why bother agonising over what bike to get in the first place? May as well just get a decathlon special if it doesn't matter.

A bells and whistles 6k bike is going to ride about the same, if not worse than a 1k dog, if set up shite.

Also on fox forks, they were pretty divey even before 2013, haven't had a go on 2013s yet, i imagine it'll be bad times.

Also the whole giving what the customer wants (even if it's wrong) rather than focusing on racer feedback is somewhat madness IMO. Yes the average joe would not get on with a elite DHers set-up, it would be too harsh, but it should just be scaled back. With suspension whether it be bikes or motor vehicles, there is always that comfort v performance balance to hit, you cant have both, enhance one, compromise on the other.

Maybe there's room in the market for performance ranges and comfort ranges? No compromise then.

Sadly they have to sell forks to people who bounce them around in the car park. As per the original artical.

[quote=deanfbm ]What i dont get about not bothering about getting suspension set-up somewhat right, why bother agonising over what bike to get in the first place? May as well just get a decathlon special if it doesn't matter.
A bells and whistles 6k bike is going to ride about the same, if not worse than a 1k dog, if set up shite.
99.999% of the population don't buy £6k bikes.

I know that you are one of the very few who care about axle travel and spring rates but you need to recognise that the most common front suspension set-up question on STW isn't "what rebound setting for....?" it's "where can I get my fork lowers re-sprayed?"

Well, a properly setup bike (ie propr sag and proper rebound) can help beginner downhillers gain confidence when riding a lot quicker. Compression is a fine tuning device. So I really disagree that setup can be crap and most riders can ride round it. They cam, but they'd see their times decrease fairly considerably if they time their runs and got the basics right.

Tyre pressure is another big one, on loamy wet ground (eg chicksands, especially when it's got dead leaves on it) I find high tyre pressures work much better for me. I get more trail feedback so I can feel the grip and the tyre seems to dig in more. Low tyre pressures in the conditions feel weird and sensation less. In rocky, rooty terrain I MUCH prefer low tyre pressures though.

Are there any suspension set up guides out there that are for the layman? Maybe someone could post a link? Also, amazed that Fox could get it SO wrong on the 2013 CTD forks! Have lots of people complained? This is the first I've heard is all...

2011 Fox FIT 120 RLC here. Setup with slightly less than the recommended pressures and its controlled, invisible and reaches full travel very occasionally on really big hits. I got the same from my 2007 coil pike with little effort .

However, my 2012 RS Sid 100 is firm and doesn't track small bumps as well as the Fox or reach full travel regardless of the pressures at each end. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me if its supposed to be like that because its "meant for XC racers". Or foes tha HA affect the way the fork feels?

Kryton57 - Member
2011 Fox FIT 120 RLC here. Setup with slightly less than the recommended pressures and its controlled, invisible and reaches full travel very occasionally on really big hits. I got the same from my 2007 coil pike with little effort .

However, my 2012 RS Sid 100 is firm and doesn't track small bumps as well as the Fox or reach full travel regardless of the pressures at each end. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me if its supposed to be like that because its "meant for XC racers". Or foes tha HA affect the way the fork feels?

I never got to make my point which is of those two ^^ if both manufacturers followed marketing direction why would the be so different?

As said above its the rider more than the suspension. My mate is a professional motorbike racer and beats me on both the ups and decents on a heavy 35lbs+ steel hardtail with forks that have about 20mm of travel.

Its not because his bike is good, its because hes mental and trains 6 days a week every week.

robowns - so you're not going to bother aligning your bars, putting air in your tyres, setting up your suspension remotely correctly on your pride and joy because it's more the rider?

robowns - so you're not going to bother aligning your bars, putting air in your tyres, setting up your suspension remotely correctly on your pride and joy because it's more the rider?

Nah I dont bother with bars, I just hold onto the stem.

But yeah I was just adding to the other side of the arguement, obviously I have set mine up to how I like it, didnt spend the money to have something I didnt like.

What i got from that is that the suspension developers, shops and magazines do a piss poor job of showing us how to work their products.

If i want to know the basics of set up for my suspension i generally turn to one of the specialist tuning companys web sites rather than looking on the manufacturers site.

Sram have produced service videos for alot of their products, why not setup videos too?

...why not setup videos too?

Becuase there are N different variations depending on N different trails/tyres/wheels/frames etc.

You learn what the knobs do and make a choice. If you want to become an expert, do more learning and comparison.

I've bolted some bluetooth enabled servo motors to my compression and rebound dials.
I use this in conjunction with a phone app that picks up the start points of all the local strava segs and adjusts the settings to be optimal for that segment.
That way I can rip though a whole chain of segments without having to worry about the bike.

I really want that to be true

Rusty Mac - That would be ideal. This is the way cane creek are going about things, the most complicated shock to tune on the market. Fox are ding this too with their ird app.

But as mentioned by someone else earlier, for average joe, they CBA dialling in their compression setting, let alone think about what they're doing, i would like to see spring and rebound as the only adjustments, maybe lockout too, then it is pretty easy for the manufacturer to make straight forward, set-up recommendations. But then knobs and dials is what the customer wants, if even they dont know what they do,

A chart saying if you're x weight, run y pressure and z clicks of rebound would be ideal and really wouldn't be a chore for the manufacturer to supply. But then, how many people whinge about rockshox recommended fork pressures being too high (case of too much suspension for that user)?

Bike shops need to do better too in their initial set up and after sales service. I pride myself on the bikes being setup well when they leave the shop and do my best to answer any questions or make recommendations on adjustments when they come back. But can only educate people in what's really happening out on the trails and doing repeated runs, should this be part of the shop service?

Will try this again as it vanished into the ether last time

Becuase there are N different variations depending on N different trails/tyres/wheels/frames etc.

But this is exactly my point, some basic guidance on how to set up your shock to get the best out of it shouldn't be too dificult.
The adjustments on the shocks don't really differ much for the same type.

I completely understand that shocks are designed for mr average but i am not average but i should be able to get the same kind of feel by tuning the shock for me.

They should be able to provide pointers along the lines of

If you find the bike bobing like a pogo stick when you pedal try x, y, z
If you find the bike tries to buck you over the bars off a jump try 1, 2, 3.

These values will be inherintly different for each bike/rider/type of terrain but it shouldn't be too hard to get the information accross in an easily understandable format that a novice or luddite like myself could understand.

If you find the bike bobing like a pogo stick when you pedal try x, y, z
If you find the bike tries to buck you over the bars off a jump try 1, 2, 3.

The fox website provided that (at least it used to) in the Tech section.

These values will be inherintly different for each bike/rider/type of terrain but it shouldn't be too hard to get the information accross in an easily understandable format that a novice or luddite like myself could understand.

Hmm.
I wonder what the bandwidth of the acceleromters are like in a typical mobile? I.e attach phone to bike, bounce up and down, it then tells you what to twiddle.

Kryton57

Just had a quick look and can't see it, will continue to have a look arroud the site to see if i come accross it but it is not imediately obvious as to where it is.

If you have a link please could you post it up.

[edit] found it
http://www.foxracingshox.com/help.php?m=bike&ref=topnav [/edit]

Here you go Rusty Mac:

http://www.foxracingshox.com/help.php?m=bike&t=tuningtips&ref=lnav_help

edit: ah, you got it.

And for RS:

crashtestmonkey - Member

because the mags and other so-called experts regularly trot out "your sus is sorted when it bottoms out once or twice per ride".

This gets my backup, so called experts start spouting complete and utter crap.

Kryton57

Ta very much, have book marked them so will have a propper read at home later.

[i]doesn't track small bumps[/i]

I know everyone is different, but this makes me want to kill kittens. If you can't control a bike over small bumps then get a road bike you'll enjoy it more.

Interestingly ( or not, depends on your pov) Mugura bought out a 140mm fork a few years ago the Thor that was rightly criticised for being too divey, and I suspect as did others that was so that it felt good to punters in car park tests. Surprising that only a few years later Fox are doing the same thing

Chris Porter may talk some old tosh from time to time, but hes spot on with this:

"I think selling a rider one bike and then selling him three pairs of wheels would be the more honest solution. An XC wheelset with a decent set of fast rolling, lightweight tyres, an all-mountain set with a tougher set of tyres with a fast rolling tread pattern on the rear, and a tougher pair of wheels with a pair of tougher, softer tyres for big days in the Alps."

Wheels make the single biggest difference to how a bike rides IMHO..

Rusty - actually this is better:

http://faqload.com/faqs/bicycle-components/suspension/rockshox-sid-race-2009-2010-setup-tips

and this is a pretty good simplified explanation:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/08/20/tech-article-how-rockshox-motion-control-works/

double post

+1 mrlebowski

And the often overlooked tyre pressure.

Why tweak your £1000 forks when you dont bother checking tyre pressures.

can someone post a video of this "bouncing around the car park" please? it sounds funny.

Yep Trimix, tyre pressures too - very important.