err all my bottle cages sit flush against the frame not sure what your getting at here.

It would also be more likely to scratch the frame, which matters to some people...

Different bikes have different tube diameters, maybe an incorrectly recessed cage could do more damage than a flat one.

pics?

I've thought the same thing since my old Principia frame had one of the rivnuts pull out from carrying the frame.
Luckily my dad was a seller of such things as rivnuts and fitted a new one!

Also bottle cages should be adjustable so that you can mount them lower (ie. nearer the BB) on some full sus frames.
Here's one I prepared earlier
[IMG] [/IMG]

I have cages which are recessed at the year to sit over the rivnut. It's pretty common.

I've seen recessed cages, it's just that I'm swapping bits around between bikes right now and the Specialized, Ritchey, Elite and unbranded ones I've got in front of me are all flat.

Like this.

[img] [/img]

Mounting something that weighs over 1kg on two M5 bolts like that doesn't look like good practice to me.

I've never had a cage like that. All mine are recessed and make much more sense.

Is that carbon, maybe harder to mould?

Anyway - this is STW, so surely the correct response is "[i]who uses bottle cages anyway? Its all Camelback round here[/i]".

Where did you get the 1 Litre bidons?

Get a camelbak then. You know it makes sense.

Mounting something that weighs over 1kg on two M5 bolts like that doesn't look like good practice to me.

The front luggage block on a Brompton is held on with two M5 bolts, and it's rated at 15kg - though I've seen them take a lot more 😉

Bu tthat means you can't use the mount supplied with pumps to hold your pump at the side of your bottle cage

I think the OP point is a good one. You can always use thick, plastic washers to achieve a bigger 'footprint' and spread the loads better.

And I've long since stopped using bottles on the MTB, so this is only road-specific for me.

Bencooper, I would guess the M5 bolts on a Brompton clamp the rack tight against something.
It's the leverage created by the gap that I see as a design fault.

Can anyone tell me who makes these recessed cages ? I might want to get a pair.

who uses bottle cages anyway

Seem to be using bottles most of the time these days as its less of a faff.

Chris

[i]Can anyone tell me who makes these recessed cages ?[/i]

It's gone awfully quiet in here 🙂

Is that adjustable (up and down) bottle cage one you can buy? Any chance of a web link?
Or is it home made?

Plastic cage and a rounded file/rasp ?

topeak modula here - lovely fit (and fileable if you wanted), short slots to allow a bit of movement on the mounts, pretty light and adjustable bottle diameter for good grip 🙂

Sorry for being a pain but how do you know it's a design fault? (ie, the fault of the designer). Maybe the designers customer said 'fit bottle holders, but only spend 1.5p per fitting, thus limiting the designer to what and how he,(or she) could do.
Most 'design faults' aren't, it's the person specifying or paying for the work that is the problem.

Sorry.

Mine are all cheap plastic jobbies. One is a Kona Combo Cage though.

This kind of thing. I never buy expensive ones.
[url= http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_categoryId_165633_productId_385157_langId_-1?cm_mmc=Shopping-_-Google%20Product%20Search-_-Bikes%2FBike%20Accessories%20%26%20Bike%20Helmets%2FBike%20Water%20Bottles%20Holders%20%26%20Cages-_-Halfords%20Plastic%20Water%20Bottle%20Cage&source=shopping ]Halfords link[/url]

[img] http://washford.scene7.com/is/image/Washford/868570?$prod$ [/img]

somarich:

[url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=28755&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_name=UnitedKingdom ]topeak, 4 quid[/url]
[img] [/img]

I have a plastic one similar to Soma Rich's pic above ziptied onto my DH bikes downtube. - stupidly DH bikes almost never have bottle cage mounts anymore.
I'd love to have one on my hardtail too but being a 14" Jump frame there's no room in the front triangle.

MTG - it's just yet another poor design still around from when roadbikes were the only high end bikes made. easily gotten round with the correct (often plastic) cage.

Can anyone tell me who makes these recessed cages ?

Specialized, TACX, lots of other brands you can have a look at if you got to a real bike shop.

But seriously, most of my frames are welded. The only one that isnt is cos its carbon, i used a recessed cage on this bike (as it was a posh cage, not cos of its design) and the bolts constantly got loose. Being clamped against the frame meant the cage did not bottom out onto the bosses, this fact and the shape of the frame tube meant some side to side movement was possible, leading to loosening of the bolts over time (and slight scuffing of paint).

Mounting something that weighs over 1kg on two M5 bolts like that doesn't look like good practice to me.

Since four M5 bolts hold a 20kg load on a rear pannier with few issues I don't think a 1kg load on two bolts should be a problem. In practice I have an XL cage on my tourer which carries a 1.5L bottle which has given no problems over thousands of miles.

I have broken a couple of rack mounting bolts but not since changing to high tensile bolts and using thread fastner stuff to prevent loosening. I agree though that M6 would be a better standard for rack mounts.

I'd have thought any load issues would come from the force required to pull a tight bottle from a cage. Even then I am not sure it would be anywhere near enough to cause a properly fitted insert & 2x m5 screws too much bother.

There are some things that really don't need designing to the nth degree & reckon this is perhaps one of those things.

Can anyone tell me who makes these recessed cages ?
Brought a Trek RL one yesterday to go on the new frame.. thats recessed...

as an engineer

Make a better one then. Or make a )( or )[ shaped packing piece to secure the cage from unwanted latitudinal movement.

Be prepared for the accountants to come at you screaming "WHHHHYYY!!?"

There's a design fault with most water bottle cages.

Actually, the design fault is with the frame, not the water bottle cage. If a bottle boss is pulling out of a frame in normal use, the frame is either badly designed, badly constructed or both. It's true that some bottle cages could be designed better and may prevent an issue like the described but how do you deal with that? Suggest approved cages for use with your frame??

What shandcycles said. If your rivnuts are pulling out of the frame under the weight of a bottle, what about the weight of a rack and panniers?

I don't see what the frame makers could do differently within the limitations of using rivnuts.
Rivnuts are pretty good at handling a straight pull load. Any sort of sideways load, like a water bottle shaking about over rough ground, puts a strain on the thin material they are riveted in to.
The Trek and Topeak ones linked to above look like they've got the bolts recessed, not the back where it mates up to the frame.

I like Oliver's idea of a separate spacer, they could be made cheaply in a range of diameters.

"there must be a space between the bottle and the tube to which it is attached" It's a UCI rule apparently.
http://inrng.com/2011/12/uci-bottles-rules/

Isn't it good to know the UCI are tackling the biggest problems in cycling.

irc, and Mr Agreeanble, we've done this bit, I even posted a picture. 😉
Rack mounting are quite thick aren't they ? And there's usually three of them, so it can't flop side to side.
It's the leverage caused by having only two bolts raised above a thin frame tube that's the problem.

like I said

it's just yet another poor design still around from when roadbikes were the only high end bikes made.

from the Van Nicholas website:

Frame Features
» WELDED water bottle Bosses; NO alloy pop-rivets.

Interesting that they make a point of stating this.

And so they should. Rivnuts on a high end frame is just lazyass cheapness in the extreme.

It's the leverage caused by having only two bolts raised above a thin frame tube that's the problem.

Not in my experience. One dead seatstay rivnut on my Ragley Rodwell, bottle bosses still intact despite regular abuse: Tour of Flanders, a couple of HONCs, London to Paris off road, etc (although they may not be long for the world if they're as badly manufactured as the seatstay mounts).

Aye, plus weaker and not just for the bottle. A welded/brazed boss ends up with a reinforced 5mm hole in the tube. A rivnut ends up with an 8mm hole, stressed by having the nut clamped through it.

I avoid using the things unless absolutely necessary.

[i]Is that adjustable (up and down) bottle cage one you can buy? Any chance of a web link?
Or is it home made?[/i]

It's Photoshop made 🙂
I did make one out of a bit of Meccano or something similar.

making it less stable and putting the rivnuts under a side load.

And this matters because.....?

[img] [/img]

Shouldn't you people be working? 😉

Interesting that they make a point of stating this.

All the steel frames I've had stripped and PC'd have had the bottle mounts brazed in?

Of my alloy frames my old merrida was welded IIRC, the cannondales were rivited (and one had issues), I haven't looked at the Pitch (but suspect as they're owned by merrida that they're welded too).

The design flaw seems to be the rivinuts then, not the bottle holders? Anyone had any problems with welded/brazed bottle mounts?

who uses bottle cages anyway? Its all Camelback round here

On a serious note I stopped using camelpacks for shorter rides, and bought a 1.5l one for winter rides as it'll hold about 750ml of fluid + battery and the usual contents of my jersey pockets. The big propper one still comes out for longer rides.

My Dakine back pack fits perfectly. And much better than a bottle cage.

Shouldn't you people be working?

this is work 🙂

I thought bottle cages on mtb's were for light batteries.
Do people only ride with bottles?
If you do where do you put all the rest of the stuff?

erm?? wouldn't a brace between frame and cage make more sense. Protect the frame, reduce vibration and help spread load. Nothing worse than bottle cage wobble noise.

mtg, I think you're an engineer ( are you actually an Engineer?) looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in the real world...

If you do where do you put all the rest of the stuff?

Jersey pockets (CO2, tool, patches, gel and a gillet)

Spare tube and spare brake pads taped to the frame/seatpost (makes having the right one easier too, rather than a backpack full of 26/29" tubes)

Quick links inside the brake levers (same logic as above with, 9s, 10s SS bikes)

This does rely on you not following the MBR/MBUK trend for wearing DH jerseys for XC though.

CAMELBACK

mtg, I think you're an engineer ( are you actually an Engineer?) looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in the real world...

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bottle-cage-eyelet-loose-in-frame

😛

Spare parts ,shocked with people taking spare pads
Does no one give there bike a quick check before taking it out

Am I not going long snuff runs ,never worn a set of pads out on a run.

Sticky patch and a co2 and bank card for breakfast water bottle that's it
Nine times out of ten I forget the patch

PS my giant and the missus felt are both welded bottle bosses

I would prefer there to be clearance between the bottle cage and the frame as it is easy for dirt to get trapped in there and the thing will flex and move around with the weight of a bottle of water so there is a high risk of abrasion damage to the frame - regardless of the material. Also clearance gives the opportunity to have pump mounts. If anyone has a cage that contacts or comes very close to contacting the frame then put some protection tape on the frame where it could rub.