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As a pure mountain biker until abouyt 2 months ago, (of about 20 years +), Id never really understood why roadies moaned about cycle paths. Having bought a roadie now and strted doing a few miles I now totally understand.
here's a blog post I wrote about it
[url= http://shemovate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/the-problem-with-cycle-paths-and-why.html ]Why cycle paths dont work [/url]
Make them like Dutch ones. Segregated. You forgot to mention about making the bike paths flat across road junctions, roundabouts etc., and priority to the bike (either raised hump for cars, or dropped path relative to footpath, for bikes).
UK ones are merely a stripe of Dulux on a road, or a strip of Dulux on a pavement in the kids opening car doors zone.
It'd also be nice on dedicated ones if they actually renewed the tarmac and cleaned up broken glass on them.
You open by saying that there should be more cycle paths to get more ordinary folk using cycling as 'active travel', then repeatedly moan about how cycle paths don't suit elite roadies on training runs. (Frankly - so what?)
You also say that cyclists don't like using cycle paths and later give one of the reasons as they're full of cyclists getting in the way. 😯
But worst of all:
allow [b]family’s[/b] to enjoy active times together
Turn off the PC and hand in your router, yr internetz iz revoked.
I have two rather more fundamental problems with cycle paths:
1. They're often more dangerous than staying on the road.
2. They're often less convenient than staying on the road.
klumpy hits the nail on the head.
Cycle paths are not designed for roadies. They're designed for your average user on a BSO, not a CF everything leet road bike.
As far as im concerned (as a mountainbiker) they are a means to an end where I live, linking up the trails etc.
I'll admit many UK ones are bunged in as a point scoring exercise ny local councils, not as an efficient means of segregating bikes from road traffic.
PDW has condensed your blog into 2 lines.
They're designed for...
In the UK? they're not designed at all. Unless painting a stripe or the road blue, is "design".
Despite what Edinburgh CC publish, the "cycle paths" here are shitty dog walkers corridors, pedestrian scenery bimbles and commuting hell.
The roads and the trails are the only appropriate place for the way I cycle. I'm not in the business of killing pets and surprising pensioners. I'd rather take my chances with the potholes and taxis. Cycle paths are suitable for my weekend leisure pootle with the missus, but not for I NEED TO BE AT WORK NOW flying along.
Trail Rat nearly...
Some other countries seem to get them to work just fineWhy [b]UK[/b] cycle paths dont work
1. They're often more dangerous than staying on the road.
2. They're often less convenient than staying on the road.
Read David Hembrow's blogs, starting with one about speed on cycle paths: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/speed
I agree, UK cycle paths are almost universally rubbish. But it doesn't have to be like that.
just leave earlier Cfinnimore.
my cycle to work is alot more relaxed since i got off the road- radio on , bimble along.
I think we need to seperate the typical town/city urban road cyclepath with a painted on line and some of the Sustrans NCN routes. I've ridden many many cycle paths that are pure smooth tarmac and been well away from any roads. I also agree with the point about some of them being covered in puncture material.
bigyinn - MemberCycle paths are not designed for roadies. They're designed for your average user on a BSO, not a CF everything leet road bike.
In many cases they're not designed for bikes full stop, frankly. And that's OK, because you can still choose not to use them... Except that other road users get pissed off at you when there's a cyclepath and you don't use it.
I think the dual/shared use paths are the worst. Painting a bike shape on one side of a white line and a walker on the other doesn't seem to make any difference to where pedestrians wander. We have one I often use as a connector that is one quarter bike and three quarters pedestrian but you still have to wander all over the path to get through and I am not talking strava frenzy, just getting from A to B.
Klumpy, I did distinguish between types of cyclists however. The way the French cycle paths work in many areas over there, a family could cycle safely and at the same time a serious roadie could pass them safely. Or so Ive found whilst cycling over there anyway.
If you think there is as much info in 2 lines as there is in my blog, then great you shoudl save yourself a lot of reading in the future 😀
and I like taking my kids cycling, anything wrong with that? generally I hit trails with them, but kids dont always want to climb mountains.
glad to see most people agree the British lanes need changing anyway, cheers folks.
just leave earlier Cfinnimore.
I leave with plenty of time to spare, but it's so I can go up the Pentlands before I start.
And it's the canal into town after that so it's lovely.
but when your trying to beat a personal best or simply maintain a steady pace, the last thing you want is to be slowed down by children or leisure riders or which brings me onto my next off put, walkers.
oh you are a pro? go ride somewhere else perhaps 🙂
Haha iffoverload 😀 (I wish) but my point being. If Im on my mtb connecting forests her ein the Dyfi valley or out on the roadie, If I cycle along the road next to the cycle path I get shouted at and hurled abuse by passing cars.
If the cycle path was more suited Id use it. Most people seem to agree our cycle paths dont work, so something should in my opinion be done to make them more user friendly.
(i think some people may be missing my point here, in that they havnt been designed for all cyclists)
Exactly- cycle paths aren't all positive, there's an element of ghettoisation... Some people don't want us on the road and hey can fuel that.
Now to be honest, that's not the fault of cycle paths, that's the fault of bellends. But we exist in a world that contains bellends so you've got to plan for their contribution.
Deffo Northwind 😀
Cycle lanes in the UK only ever seem like a token gesture.
They get built,forgotten and are rarely maintained .
I have yet to see one that gets any salt/grit in the Winter months.
Cycle lanes should be safer and more convenient that roads if you actually want people to use them, the fact is that 90% of the time they are neither, blogs like yours and others go into detail about how and why they are neither - detail which is obviously needed but the base message is still the same two lines. 🙂If you think there is as much info in 2 lines as there is in my blog, then great you shoudl save yourself a lot of reading in the future
I recently got dragged into a row with Camden Cycling Campaign and Camden Council when I publicly criticised (in a local newspaper) their "Dutch" soft design for Royal College Street in NW1, which frankly has fallen to bit in a few months, and offers no proper protection to cyclists going in either direction.
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Unfortunately this replaced a solid concrete segregated lane that had been in place for 10 years.
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I did take them to task several times at a "green event" and then in communications but was told not to be negative as this Dutch design is seen as a prototype for the future of cycle lane design in London
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had enough of being ignored so wrote a letter to the local newspaper and then got attacked online by members of Camden Cycling who could not see past the 'flaws' in their design which is based around rubber 'armadillo' humps, some white paint and easily squashed plant pots
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they are now "making adjustments" to their scheme....
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i think some people may be missing my point here
as this is your first post in a year, i think your point is 'look at my blog'
great images Esther. yes my first post in a year, but I was a regular poster. Im a busy boy and just found time to blog and use forums again 😀 I do hope thats ok, to be honest I tend to spend more time on a bike than in front of my lap top when possible 😀
Having lived in Holland for 4 years, there is nothing "Dutch" whatsoever about those pics above, with the exception of a kerb between the pavement and the cycle path.
A kerb section and grass, and maybe even some small trees between cycle lane and road would be.
I'm currently sat in Copenhagen.
They seem to have the right idea, bikes are just a form a transport not a lifestyle choice, people of all ages and both sexes pootling along on shoppers wearing normal clothes and shoes and no helmets.
Good infrastructure though is key. I can't see there being any significant change in cycling numbers in the UK (beyond what's already taken place in London due to other factors) without some serious investment in proper infrastructure.
They must be designed by people who have never ridden a road bike and honestly don't realise that you aim to be doing 15-25mph. They seem to expect you to be pootling along at 5mph. So a bit of gravel or a traffic light sign or a parked car aren't really a problem.
esher shore - Member
I recently got dragged into a row with Camden Cycling Campaign and Camden Council when I publicly criticised (in a local newspaper) their "Dutch" soft design for Royal College Street in NW1, which frankly has fallen to bit in a few months, and offers no proper protection to cyclists going in either direction.
Blatantly redesigned so vans can park on it if they want.
The van parked in southbound lane in my pic is a Camden council van !
What happens with roadies in Holland etc? Where if a cycle route exists I believe it's compulsory to use it, and said route has lots or normal cyclists travelling at a much slower speeds.
I'm all for segregated routes for encouraging everyday cycling and normalising it to make it a normal thing to do.
But! if and when we as a country get a good cycling infrastructure where will the Roadies go? As those routes are not suited that type of cycling generally and many motorists (the Clarkson type) will if you're on the road, see you as taking their road and not using the new infrastructure and the existing animosity will continue.
Will we end up with roadies having to drive or ride slowly from where they live to roads which don't have any cycling infrastructure, making it more difficult for many who have cycling infrastructure near their homes to be able to do a quick from their door session?
So how does sport cycling fit in places like Holland? What lessons could we learn early?
They're big flat, open, and uninterrupted.
Sure you wouldn't be setting a new timetrial Strava segment on one in the rush hour, but you can put the foot down (so to speak) out of town, knowing that when you get to a junction, you probably won't need to stop, and that there will be no change in level/grade of the path.
Unlike cars which will have to give way, and possibly do have a grade change. And they'll have to give way 3 times at a roundabout.
checkout the hembrow link above and his [url= http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html ]myths[/url] oneWhere if a cycle route exists I believe it's compulsory to use it, and said route has lots or normal cyclists travelling at a much slower speeds.
You'll have to reign it in in the cities same as you can't sprint full pelt through gridlocked traffic - not if you want to remain uninjured anyway, but it would appear riders can go pretty swift on dutch infrastructure.Cycle-paths are slow. Yes, this one keeps coming up. I tried pointing out how much quicker my commute is here than it was in the UK, and even showed someone riding along a cycle path at over 60 km/h, but people still cling to this belief. It's nonsense. Well designed cycle paths prioritise cyclists on them over cars on the road. Here we have traffic lights which default to green for bikes, others which allow only cyclists to make a right turn on red, and give cyclists green lights twice as often as drivers, a growing network of intercity bicycle superhighways for long distance commuters, journeys within town which take a more direct route from the roads and avoid traffic lights. And yes, racing cyclists really do use cycle-paths in the Netherlands. The infrastructure is that good.
DFT guidelines are pretty clear on many aspects of cyclepaths, I believe the design speed is 20mph.
That Sustrans, councils etc choose to ignore the DfT requirements that is something else! The fact that they are allowed to ignore the guidelines!
Not sure if the guidelines could ever be enforced in court in the event of an accident, not sure but it might make councils and sustrans take their job more seriously.
I have no issue with Sustrans if the idea is to provide green corridors as leisure facilities, but if they are meant to be providing Sus(tainable)trans(port) routes they all too often are crap.
9.2 Sightlines
9.2.1 These need to be good enough for cyclists and pedestrians to have clear warning of each other's
approach. An uninterrupted view is particularly important at junctions where both cyclists and pedestrians
will be concentrating on the carriageway. As a starting point, the minimum sightline distances given in
Table 3 of TD 36/93 may be adopted, i.e. 4m for sharp bends and a design speed of 10 km/h 6 mph?, and
26m for large radius bends and straights and a design speed of 25 km/h 15 mph?. In general a design
speed of 30-35 km/h is desirable for cycle facilities.
I like this from the hembrow blog
The dutch regard this as a shit cycle path and so it's about to be upgraded
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http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/02/cycling-infrastructure-is-cheaper-to.html
Yes mrmo - I believe Sustrans are a big part of the problem
They have conspired to produce absolute garbage and sold it to us as bike paths.
From your link though
3.2.3 It is important to recognise that pedestrians and cyclists are not homogeneous groups and their needs
vary considerably. This issue is addressed by the concept of the "Design User" and is covered in more
detail in LTN 1/04. For example, child and inexperienced cyclists might welcome the perceived security
of off-road provision, while confident adults travelling to work might be content to mix with other traffic
to keep journey times to a minimum. Understanding for whom and for what purpose a cycle route is
proposed is an important part of deciding whether or not to offer cyclists the option of using an
off-carriageway facility
is the problem bit - people try to build different designs for two types of bike user and satisfy neither. Instead of taking a holistic approach to how people should move around and between towns and communities
Thanks for all the constructive comments recently. gwaelod, how cool is that path!
kinell@link - hope it works.
My old route to work. Tell me you can't go fast on that? Another NL feature there is that the road gets trafic lights but the bike path doesn't (doesn't need to). Not even a major issue with the Peek Traffic car there doing maintenance on the lights, and wouldn't be a major issue with it driving up the bike lane to get there.
[i]In many cases they're not designed for bikes full stop, frankly. And that's OK, because you can still choose not to use them... Except that other road users get pissed off at you when there's a cyclepath and you don't use it.[/i]
This.
I actually don't understand the cycle paths round my way.
New ones have been painted in the last week or so too - well, some pictures of bikes have been painted on the road, with little arrows directing you onto the... footpath. It's bizarre. I need to get the person responsible to ride a bike on them with me.
The existing ones are partly on a footpath, then on the road at each junction. I honestly don't know how to use them.
(ps. a cyclist blogger who can't spell pedal 😆 )
Thanks for all the constructive comments recently. gwaelod, how cool is that path!
The dutch don't think it's cool...they think its old, substandard and in need of an upgrade.
As Hembrow points out a lot...we're 40 years behind them, and falling further behind every year...but we don't seem to want to learn from their experience...even when local authorities over here slap a "dutch style" label on bits of new road design they build - invariably it's flawed, or not used in the context that the dutch would use it, or something the dutch played with, decided didn't work and moved on from.
crossroads is one where both UK and Germany ignore Dutch experimentation.
ie make a cycle lane strip go straight ahead with different colour tarmac, and make cars have to cross the cycle lane for the left turn lane (right in Germany). Dutch did it, changed their mind, and updated their specs. UK can only afford paint, so follow obsolete Dutch spec.
Well this is the problem with the dutch Lane in NW1. Someone sold Camden council the myth of "dutch" cycle lanes meaning "soft" infrastructure. When you do some digging you actually find its been installed because its 1/10th the cost of the older solid concrete segregation strip that previously sat there...
DFT guidelines are pretty clear on many aspects of cyclepaths, I believe the design speed is 20mph.
You got a reference for that? The DfT has previously issued guidance saying that if you're travelling at over 18mph you should probably be on the road, not a cycle path, but I've never heard a design speed suggested, and this certainly seems to be reflected in most designs.
something the dutch played with, decided didn't work and moved on from.
Didn't TfL/whoever do a load of infrastructure pilots (on an old runway somewhere I think) but they did pilots of all the old stuff the netherlands had already tried [i]and dismissed[/i]. Why say your trying "dutch style" and then ignore their tests/progress?crossroads is one where both UK and Germany ignore Dutch experimentation.
Fair enough Donk, sounds like they really do have it sorted and they are that good.
But! I bet we don't end up with any infrastructure which is even close to that in Holland, even though it'll get labelled as "Dutch" even though the designer has never left this country or ridden a bike. Much like the new "dutch style junction" in Southampton which is apparently (I've not seen it myself other than the press coverage, road.cc etc) awful and nothing like anything remotely dutch