Any thoughts on Fazua motors? A Transition Relay as popped in to view....
The ginger stepchild of ebike motors. Actually, that's unfair (on gingers or on Fazua, I'll leave that open for debate). I've put 600km on my SC Heckler SL with Fazua Ride60 since January and really really like it. I'm fully aware of the experiences of others on the Facebook groups etc but mine's performed perfectly.
For me, the 60Nm and 430Wh battery is a good combo, especially in a bike with sizing/geometry that works for me. I've been ruined by my Geometron and struggled to find any ebike with reach/angles close to my G1. My search was led by geometry/weight first, and accepting the compromise on the motor brand. I wanted something I can lift over fences etc. It helped it was just over £4k in pre-festive sales rather than the £8k list. A robust build in XXL size weighing 20.6kg inc pedals and mudhugger etc (3.1kg more than my Geometron with a similar build).
The cancellation of the range extender was a kick in the balls as that'll limit big days riding with fullfat buddies, but it is what it is.
Current repair within the UK involves Upgrade UK who send them off to Fazua themselves, so not ideal.
My lbs is a ‘Shimano Service Centre’, and were very helpful getting me a replacement motor out of warranty. It cost a third of a new one and is still going strong three years later. However I couldn’t recommend a Shimano mainly due to their unrepairability (if there is such a word). People have been disassembling ICE for a very long time, why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
i assume its because they need to be super well-sealed and there are quite fine tolerances.
I`ll agree the lack of repairability is definately not great though. i'd be interested to know what happens to the returned motors.
It’s a funny time in ebike world. The arse appears to have fallen out of the ‘SL’ market & it seems like there is limited interest in it these days, with everyone focusing on the mid or full power space. That’s also starting to get a bit confused with the weight of full power bikes dropping to under 22kg in some cases.
In terms of motors, I would steer clear of anything Shimano - everyone is moving away from them for good reason.
Personally, I would pick something Bosch based if I was going full power, with the new update, it’s very close to the DJI, which I’ve ridden a lot on a new Mith, but has a massive dealer network if there is any issue. The form factor of the DJI is a bit nicer, but that’s it really now.
If I was going mid power, I’d probably go for something with the new TQ motor - it’s more efficient than the old one, it’s utterly silent in use & feels very natural. The Bosch SX had potential but it’s let down by being noisy in use, really noisy in descending & its power numbers are based on ridiculously high cadences.
Agree... Mostly... But... Bosch SX is in my experience, not as noisy as most other motors (sure it's noisier than a CX, but compared to EP8 or Mahle/Spesh SL motors its practically silent!)... And yes the cadences it works best at are very high (Peak 600w power comes at 108rpm currently), but when it goes from 55Nm to 60Nm with the October update that 600w peak will come down slightly to around 100rpm... The thing is though, it might take 108rpm currently to get 600w, but it's still making 500w @ 90rpm which is mighty impressive when the bikes its fitted to typically weigh 4-5kg less than a full fat... A Gen3 Spesh Levo (which is what 80% of my riding mates are still riding) is 565w peak power and weighs 23kg upwards, I've already dropped a few Levo riders on my SX powered bike up climbs although I was punching 100+rpm in order to do so... Subjectively, I find the SX more fun to ride than the CX too, it's high rpm style really suits the way I ride, at least on shorter 2-3hr rides. The CX is like a 3L diesel, it's a mighty impressive torquey motor, it can be revved but there's no need to and it's super smooth and quiet... The SX is like a 600cc motorbike engine, it can be ridden at low rpm's and is super smooth and incredibly inoffensive, or you can thrash the tits off it at super high rpm and it punches way above its weight, at least until the fuel runs out that is... If you have a high cadence pedalling style ad the fitness to go with it, a bike with a Bosch SX and a range extender is all you need to keep up with your full fat mates all day...
A mate has the new Yeti LTe with the new TQ HPR60 fitted... It's clearly way better than the HPR50, much more efficient and the larger 580Wh battery is far more useful... It's only 350w peak power though which might not be an issue for some, but it'll be dropped like its hot by a Bosch SX bike or any full fat bike... It is super quiet and seems incredibly well thought out, but if you ride with other people on other motor systems you're always going to be coming up short in the horsepower wars!
why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
i assume its because they need to be super well-sealed and there are quite fine tolerances.
I`ll agree the lack of repairability is definately not great though. i'd be interested to know what happens to the returned motors.
The torque sensor on the axle failed on mine (and the other one we had suffered a cracked axle due to an e13 crank). As far as I could work out torque sensor is bonded to axle and needs calibrating, plus axles are pressed in in a way that wouldn’t be available in a repair shop. I’m pretty sure Shimano are just recycling/binning the motors they replace. Specialized had the worst failure rate on motors for years - I’m pretty certain all the warranty replacements were/are new motors rather than reconditioned.
there are lots of motors on cars that are replaced rather than being repaired. It might not be very sustainable but can see from a corporate pov why they might have taken the decision not to try to manage repair/service (the only other part on a bike that is similar is suspension and that has been an issue with various brands over the years )
if you ride with other people on other motor systems you're always going to be coming up short in the horsepower wars!
yes but its not all about horsepower unless you only ride up fire roads in boost. riding a lighter eeb bike down teh hill will be much much better than a 27kg tank FF eeb. Big heavy FF eebs take alot of effort to ride well (if you are only doing xc less so). when i tried a friends YT eeb i was stunned at how much harder, and harder work, it was to razz down a hill, get sideways on jumps etc than my lighter one. it made be absolutely not want a big tank of an ebike just yet. for me, at least for now, fun is more important. I agree that a big FF eeb does have its place though.
Personally, riding a heavy ebike down a hill is just as good as my much lighter enduro. There are some caveats and differences, but essentially, I like the weight distribution, the suspension works brilliantly on the heavier bike and using the weight distribution through my feet, it changes direction brilliantly and quickly. I ride both every week, both different and both ace fun. For long, fast, bumpy downhills I prefer the heavy ebike. 🙂
Bosch gen 4 and EP8 here, both working as they should after an intense 5 months!
I’ve found my full fat (and heavy) ebike actually rides as good if not better downhill than my previous enduro and DH bikes. The only time it feels cumbersome is flatter trails (like Lego Woods in Bristol) where you butt up against the 25kph limit. For anything steep, quick or tight (think anything from Haldon Forest, Dartmoor, Exmoor, FOD, Morzine, Les Gets, Tignes, etc)it’s great.
Funnily enough I was chatting to a guy this afternoon who has recently swapped from a Levo SL to the Levo Gen 4 (which he’s just crashed and cracked the frame at The Ex) and he said the SL was great as his only bike, but the motor and battery couldn’t hold up to the thrashing he’d been giving it on his rides. He much preferred the bigger Gen 4 (despite braking the frame)
He was absolutely flying when I tried to follow him down the trail though, so might go harder than a lot of people.
I’m pretty sure Shimano are just recycling/binning the motors they replace. Specialized had the worst failure rate on motors for years - I’m pretty certain all the warranty replacements were/are new motors rather than reconditioned.
Someone on here seemed to think that Specialized reconditioned warrantied motors. It always seemed unlikely to me, but a bit of googling suggests that Brose does salvage bits of warrantied e-bike motor for re-use. That's the good news, in sustainability terms anyway - the bad news is that it's mostly the electrical bits as mechanical components tend to be too worn to recycle, so it's still a big chunk/maybe all of the mechanical parts just being scrapped.
https://www.ebike24.com/blog/ebike-brose-remanufacturing
I'm guessing mass production of e-bike motors is relatively straightforward, reconditioning them on a large scale less so, quite labour intensive if you're going to disassemble, check tolerances, replace bearings etc, then reassemble. It sounds like the sort of thing that would only happen if there was a legal obligation to do it. Just taking off the electrical bits for re-use would be easier, I think.
I picked up a bike from Specialized in Switzerland and there was a pallet stacked over a metre high with warrantied motors.....
This probably answers most questions from the team that fix them.
and...
Re the FF vs mid/lightweight discussion above
I want to say its horses for courses
A few years ago i had the pleasure of back to back riding an Orbea rise and wild
the FF Wild was an absolute tank, fastest bike i had ever ridden on a section of trail i knew well, however, that isn't what i wanted, being able to go faster and faster primarily because of the bike...... As a nearly 50 year old with a mortgage etc and a body which is definitely softer than the trees i was whizzing past at a now hospitalization rate isn't my goal for mountain biking. The margin of error was significantly smaller than i was used to, and impact speeds higher. This was most definitely due to the weight, and well damped heavier tyres on the Wild. I don't choose to set my regular bikes up like that as i need to ride up hills, subsequently when i ride down them line choice and riding lighter becomes more critical, and arguably more fun for me.
To back that up, when i was looking at some of the bargain full weight full power bikes, a mate of mine who rides the same place as me warned me, for where we ride, which in the winter especially, involves lots of sludge covered chalk and tight steep switch backs, maybe a 25+kg bike isn't what I'd enjoy
I think the wild was definitely midweight/low 20s as it was the top spec model, but I had more fun on the 16KG Rise which had more than enough power to assist me up the the hills on my regular trails
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
To be fair a lot of newer full fat eebs are less than 25+ kgs
My Orbea Wild with 730w battery is around 23.5kg
Apart from the hum from the motor my 2018 Vitus esommot isn't any noisier than any other full suspension MTB I've ridden
I picked up a bike from Specialized in Switzerland and there was a pallet stacked over a metre high with warrantied motors.....
This probably answers most questions from the team that fix them.
Ace, thanks, I'll check it out.
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
Im with you on that - the noise is a huge irritation
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
Bosch Gen5 are a big step forward in quietness, near damn silent with mine. Vala is also a quiet bike, it wants a new lower clutch pivot thing at some point.
but I had more fun on the 16KG Rise
I wasn't aware there'd ever been a16kg rise !?
I'm led to believe the M-LTD Team model or whatever that i demoed was around that figure
the original m team was 18.5 according to this I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a lighter weight claimed.
real world the rise is c20kg in a “good” spec with sensible tyres
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/orbea-rise-m-team-2021-review/
edit looks like im wrong
https://www.cyclingelectric.com/reviews/orbea-rise-review
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
My Mondraker Crafty currently is one of the quietest bikes I have ever owned, if not the quietest... OK so the Gen5 Bosch CX is one of the quietest eBike motors going, but along with a DT 24T ratchet rear hub, Eagle 90 Transmission, effective chainslap insulation on the stays, a silent EXT Storia coil shock (some shocks don't half squelch through their travel by comparison!) and nothing inherently rattly or things that want to interfere with each other as the bike rattles over bumps, and it's impressive not just how quiet it is for an eBike, but for a bike overall!
OK so if I stick it in turbo mode, the motor whines a tiny bit more as it delivers 100Nm and 750W, but that's as much noise as it makes entirely... I haven't even been able to get the brakes to squeal as yet in over 500 miles of riding! Previous most notably quiet bike was my old Nicolai/Geometron G15, which was similarly well designed and thought out and not lacking in rear end stiffness... I've had a few flexy bikes in my time that have made lots of noise almost all of the time, and they never last!
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
The tq hpr motors are nearly silent, certainly no rattle, and motor whine is only slightly audible at higher power
Yeah, I’m impressed with the quietness of the TQ, it’s made me add motor noise to my list of e-bike purchase criteria, I never used to think my levo was noisy but now having the exe as well I do notice the levo, its very liveable but just not as nice as the TQ. mostly noticeable when I’m in awestruck , gazing around countryside viewing bimblealong mode.
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
The tq hpr motors are nearly silent, certainly no rattle, and motor whine is only slightly audible at higher power
would still annoy me - but I like a silent bike. I think its a very subjective thing. Any noise annoys me - riding my derailleur bike after the hub geared the noise of the chain thru the jockey wheels annoys me 🙂
