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I’m pro ebike but I am also pro anything about 15mph being classed as moped and being subject to the same rules and restrictions on places of use.
15mph off road isn’t fast.
The biggest e-bike advocate I know personally is a super fit and skilled rider who rides most days, did two consecutive years of one million fit of climbing (before the e-bike) and swears he's even fitter now than he was then. Rides a blinged up Levo with 170mm Fox 36 up front. Every time I speak to him he starts telling me how sick they are and how I need one - but right now I don't have the money!
15mph off road isn’t fast.
Uphill it is!! 24kph would be 6kph faster than anybody climbs this at.
https://www.strava.com/segments/846066?filter=overall
I rode about 28miles and around 6000ft of climbing yesterday and only used 2 bars (of 5) of battery. I rode it switched off for the last 20 miles though. Its 47lb.
Tell me about your single speeds again.
I do that on my commute, singlespeed (well, almost twice the distance and a bit less climbing).
Use zero bars (unless flapjack counts).
Rescued someones family dog on the way in too, It'm flippin' awesome me!
The biggest e-bike advocate I know personally is a super fit and skilled rider who rides most days, did two consecutive years of one million fit of climbing (before the e-bike) and swears he’s even fitter now than he was then. Rides a blinged up Levo with 170mm Fox 36 up front. Every time I speak to him he starts telling me how sick they are and how I need one – but right now I don’t have the money!
I lust after a Kenevo in the same way I do a CRF250R. Which is what it is, an uber-lightweight, Green laner that's allowed on bridleways because it's a bit slower and quieter.
* will be * , at least thats self policing by the fact that you cant just pick a bike up tomorrow and hit 20mph+ for extended periods.
I've no idea what sensored words you're using. but I could pick up pretty much any bike and ride it at 20mph for periods of over say minute on the flat. As could you. I'm not sure why the extended periods matter and I still don't understand why you think this needs policing at all.
"15mph off road isn’t fast"
Orly. remove your battery and go do 15mph ave on any popular lakes route.
Uphill it is!! 24kph would be 6kph faster than anybody climbs this at.
But why does that make any difference? I’m no more likely to collide with someone when I’m riding uphill. I’ll be able to stop more quickly than on the flat or downhill.
"if you want a motorbike buy a motorbike but dont be surprised that your subjected to motorbike laws and restrictions. "
sums up my stance on the matter. there has to be a line drawn in the sand or you end up with a huge speed differential on shared use paths - and youll never get decent access laws in england.
maybe i see it differently in scotland as we are actually allowed on the hill side footpaths 😉 and that line in the sand is important to responsible land access.
Orly. remove your battery and go do 15mph ave on any popular lakes route.
But I didn’t buy it for Lakes routes type riding, I bought it a shuttle type riding here and in Austria when the lifts are shut or there’s no lift access.
And I didn’t mean about average speeds on a long XC ride. But if you think 15mph is fast, I’m glad I don’t do that type of riding.
I know for instance, when I land off the Delamere road gap, I’m doing around 30mph
There isn't always an uplift. There's a place near me with a trail centre's worth of steep long descents and 200m of fire-road ascent required to get back up to the top, which takes most people about half an hour. Plus the ride in.
Basically with an e-bike you'd get loads more runs in, and still get your exercise cos you're pedalling the same effort but going faster and doing it more often. If I ride out to that spot I won't get many runs in a 2 hour outing.
So you used nearly half the battery in 8 miles?
I think I had a dh bike around that weight, off any decent sized jump and you got earthquake warnings. Was it actually fun pedalling that for 20 miles?
That 8 miles was a lot steeper than average. I've done an entire battery in 10 miles using boost for all the climbing in a similar riding area nearby.
Sounds like you're probably pretty shit at jumping. My bike jumps very well. With me doing the skillz part.
Yes. it was loads of fun.
20mph sustained is not what I see MTBers doing on road sections and thankfully on shared use cycle paths.
I've seen folk on Tri bars riding shared use cycle paths, 20mph is definitely sustainable then. What's your stance on that?
“if you want a motorbike buy a motorbike but dont be surprised that your subjected to motorbike laws and restrictions. ”
Dude, I’m way ahead of you 🙂
All of my full sus non ebikes are under 25lbs and there is no way a ebike will ever go that low.
I got my first emtb this year Moterra LT1 which I have now done 150 miles based on short 2 hour rides.
it is completely different to a non e-mtb so all the comparisons to a non e-MTB are silly and also manufacturers using the same parts at normal mtb is silly.
My 30 year history of MTB I learned how to get my bikes low weight and easy to climb - but all that methodology doesnt apply to E-MTB.
The bottom line is that ebikes go uphill 3 times faster than non emtb, which keeps the average MPH in the 15-18 range instead of the 9-10 average.
On Saturday I rode mine up the Cheddar Gorge 16 MPH all the way apart from really steep section when I dropped to 12MPH - Even road bikes cant keep up with on steep hills - and I am running 4KG wheels/tires.
in 150 miles I have worn 1 chain out, and on saturday I broke the rear mech lever off - as rocks fly up when you are climbing on rocky loose tracks,
So in 5 years I want Emtb to be tougher and more like a Motor cross bike with tougher heavier wheels and tires!
FWIW I don't think the speed is an issue. 15mph up a hill isn't a problem when any of us could be doing 25mph down it.
in 150 miles I have worn 1 chain out, and on saturday I broke the rear mech lever off – as rocks fly up when you are climbing on rocky loose tracks,
So in 5 years I want Emtb to be tougher and more like a Motor cross bike with tougher heavier wheels and tires!
So you can erode more climbs?
yes in my landrover that weighs 2.78 Tonne - but not on a 50lb bike...
in 150 miles I have worn 1 chain out
Very good but how is that possible?, unless you are hamfisted and perform full power shifting under load, my chain,cassette and front sprocket on my scott e-genius needed changing at near enough 4000 miles (2 years use), i could have changed it at 800 miles as the chain showed wear using the park chain checker but what's the point?, run the complete drivetrain till it wears out.
Basically with an e-bike you’d get loads more runs in,
And that won't cause more erosion ?
I know the place you mean, it's all rooty dirt tracks already.
Can’t be bothered to read the whole thread..
I was at 417 yesterday doing an uplift day. I was chatting to the driver and we got onto e-mtb’s and he gave an interesting perspective. For Uplift trail centres, e-bikes don’t really make sense. They cost an astronomical amount and you lose much of the fun on the way down due to carrying extra weight. They aren’t as playful or nimble. You also expend a lot of energy on the way up which could be used to do more descents if using the uplift.
Compare that to an uplift day, £33 a time + a £2k trail bike. Say you go once a month to a trail centre, that’s £400/yr in uplift costs. That’s about £3k (inc. bike) after 2 years but with an ebike you’d need to replace the battery at this point too for £500, so the equivalent ebike will cost you north of £4.5k.
I think ebike have their place, but as an uplift tool they don’t make sense to me.
Might as well have asked a Taxi driver about commuter cyclists TBF
I have 2 DH bikes and one Emtb. and a season pass for my local uplifts.
each DH bike cost about a grand more than my Emtb.
Uplift season pass £300
all my bikes are playful. it's as much to do with set-up as it is overall weight but my Eeb is one of the lightest 170mm travel bikes you'll find (47lb) and I purposely ride a smaller frame and run faster more nimble tyres as I want it to handle as closely to my normal bikes as possible. it's not the same, but it is close. My Emtb is actually more stable than either of my DH bikes, but has plenty pop/playfulness, My DH bikes, Enduro bike, hardtails and Eeb all get ridden similarly. popping off everything in sight, whipping manualling, drifting etc. The DH, Enduro and Eeb all do similar speeds/times top to bottom on DH tracks (on than rougher longer tracks like Ft W. (Where I'd never want to climb up Eeb or not) the DH bikes have the edge. Rightly so.
I don't mind expending energy on the way up. I also have non-Eeb hardtails, and full sussers.
I see a lot of trail riders at my local uplifts struggle to complete 6 runs and go home ruined. 14 runs are easily possible.
On my Ebike I can do 4 runs in about an hour and a half on Boost (handy when I don't have a full day or want to ride evenings
On my Ebike I can access trails that are too much of a pedal from the uplift drop off/pick up and you'd never do as it'd waste precious uplift time.
If I use Eco/trail I can ride all day picking and choosing whatever I want to ride. (The uplift accessed trails are def not all the best trails in the area)
The driver is generally talking pish about E bikes.
There's quite a lot of it about. 😉
So you can erode more climbs?
fotorat
yes in my landrover that weighs 2.78 Tonne – but not on a 50lb bike…
I refer the defendant back to his previous statement m'laud.
in 150 miles I have worn 1 chain out, and on saturday I broke the rear mech lever off – as rocks fly up when you are climbing on rocky loose tracks,
So in 5 years I want Emtb to be tougher and more like a Motor cross bike with tougher heavier wheels and tires!
"So in 5 years I want Emtb to be tougher and more like a Motor cross bike with tougher heavier wheels and tires!"
the future of tomorrow is here today but its not an Emtb its an E motorbike. .... KTM SX-E
I agree with the 15mph limit. It is useless for serious commuters but I believe the limit needs to be significantly below moped limit (28mph). I favour them being recognised as a distinct category in the law rather than coming under the moped definition. I am thinking
* CBT required (like moped)
* no MOT
* Maximum weight etc restrictions that would allow them to use some shared paths or bridleways and be transported as a "bicycle" on trains for example.
Unfortunately cyclists are a minority in this democracy compared to frothing-at-the-mouth Daily Mail readers who "get held up" by "nuisance" cyclists who "don't even pay road tax", "have no insurance" and are "unaccountable". I think fast electric "bicycles" will only hurt access and speed up compulsory number plates and insurance for ALL cycling. So I hope they can be kept separate in the public's mind.
.
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And that won’t cause more erosion ?
Course it will. But more biking means more erosion wherever you go.
I agree with the 15mph limit.
Stop agreeing with the 15mph limit unless you have extensive experience of riding an emtb.
Colp is right, the 15mph assistance limit is stupid. Fat lazy/unfit Emtb riders can't sustain 25mph on the flat on their derestricted Emtbs.
Perhaps the UCI are now going to have an influence on the future development of eBikes with whatever regulations/restrictions they are going to bring in.
https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/e-mtb-world-championships-380099
Any cracking offers on then for a mate ?
He wants a full bounce..
I sent him this EGenius.... but i know sod all about ebikes.
UCI can **** off
Depends what sort of riding your mate's into Weeksy. The Scott's a good bike though.
Well... I don't want to dismiss him, but it's Sherwood Pines.... Which i know he doesn't need a full bouncer for... .but it's what he wants. He's currently got a Scott HT ebike, lower spec so things like low spec Shimano components but wants more bounce now....
I don't know what Sherwood pines is.
but if he's after a full sus trail Ebike with a geometry option to set it up verging more towards Enduro handling the Scott fits that bill. The Shimano motor is great and only seems to improve with each firmware update too but he'll probably already know that.
I'm guessing from your description Sherwood is tame, Whatever he goes for make sure he tries out faster lighter 2.3-2.5 tyres as IME they improve the handling massively over the heavy plus tyre shite or OTT super draggy DH tyres a lot of Emtbs seem to come spec'd with.
"Stop agreeing with the 15mph limit unless you have extensive experience of riding an emtb."
Eh no.
Stop throwing your toys out the pram because we don't agree with your skewared me me me point of view.
Although I do have extensive use of them and even sold them for some time.
Some of us can see the bigger picture where we will all end up banned from shared use paths because of a few people razzing about at 40kph
I'd like to see a tiered system for sure. Then everyone can be happy.
geex - I have zero experience of riding an "eBike". Loads on a motorbike (motocross, road, and "adventure"). I am not disagreeing that 15mph is slow (in fact I called it useless for many riders). I am just saying faster eBikes should have a separate legal category. I would definitely buy a fast eBike if I could (legally) ride it on the towpath and CS parts of my commute* and carry it on a train.
Out of interest do you think people who don't drive extensively should be unable to comment on car speed limits and other traffic laws? What would be your threshold? 25k miles /year. and less "experienced" road users keep their mouths shut? [Yeah this last part is trolling somewhat but only to highlight how silly your premise is]
* Due to the meandering pedestrians and cyclists in central London I probably wouldn't go much above my usual ~20mph cruising speed though,
Perhaps the UCI are now going to have an influence on the future development of eBikes with whatever regulations/restrictions they are going to bring in.
In some ways it will almost need a larger body to work to develop standards because multi level regulation will severely hamper development if you need a UK, EU, US etc version
40kph isn't fast. you can easily "razz" along any flat shared path at that speed without a motor and you know it.
two wheels you're not commenting on speed limits, you're commenting on an assist limit it's a completely different thing.
whats your point ? does that make it right ?
why dont we open up the shared paths to zx6rs and rm250s at the same time.
40kph isn’t fast.
It's just shy of 25mph, it's faster than the speed limit around some schools and quiet areas.
It's close to the general speed limit for towns
It's certainly at the upper end of sensible in shared use areas, certainly around pedestrians etc.it's all about the situation and application. Of course if you want your ebike to go faster there is an easy solution, just spin the legs a bit quicker.
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">40kph isn’t fast. you can easily “razz” along any flat shared path at that speed without a motor and you know it.
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That's only you Geex because you're awesome. The cat-1 roadie clubrun from town on a Sunday averages 35km/h on the other hand.
As MikeWSmith says, it's also 3mph short of the speed limit for mopeds.
Ebikes are shit.
eBikes will evolve so that there's no visible difference between them and regular bikes. I won't know whether to feel inadequate or bitter and twisted when I get overtaken on climbs.
I am just saying faster eBikes should have a separate legal category.
They do in Switzerland and the Netherlands and probably other places too. They have a number plate on and can go 45kph. In NL they are allowed on cycle paths, which I think is bonkers, but then so are mopeds driven by kids which is even more bloody stupid IMO given they can travel at the same speed as cars in urban areas, which is a damn sight quicker than most cyclists.
not true molly.
there is a 25kph limit on most dutch cycle paths which applys to the mopeds and the electric bikes too.
anything that is able to achieve more than that under its own power is subject to a yellow plate and is not allowed on a majority of cycle paths.
there are special paths outside of built up areas generally in areas that the roads have higher limits that they are allowed on - these generally do not have pedestrians on as are away from urban centres.
*source - living in Den Helder for a significant period and getting my head round the compulsory parallel path rule.
If there is actually anyone much arot on a shared use path passing them at 40km/h is out of order in most cases, frequently 30km/h pass would be too fast. Ebikes, great make them faster but don't expect to keep the same access and categorisation as a normal bike.
Club run averages?
I wasn't talking about averages at all.
Even derestricted a class 1 pedalec (Emtb) won't go any faster than a normal non motorised mtb and a non motorised roadbike will go faster than both. Average speeds don't really come into it.
I can't believe how utterly clueless some of you are, you're so naive you'd actually vote for legislation to limit Ebikes and have them needing tax, registration and CBT etc.... and can't even see how easily that would open the door for the same legislation to be attached to normal non motorised bikes.
There's not a problem at all with cycling at above 40kph on an Ebike or an non Ebike. But do continue to debate this huge problem you're made up...
I'm guessing there's nothing interesting in the chat forum for you to get all righteous and indignant over.