[Closed] the dumbing down of Glentress

Yip. Black section is closed due to forest harvesting.

As above, plus they're sanitising the red a bit - but I understand why, the volume of riders of varying skill.

Though it's now the case it's by far the least technical of all the stanes red routes. I think it's red only cos of the length now.

I think all the runs at GT are becoming a bit easier because of the sheer numbers of folk using the place, many of whom are just starting out mountain biking. It's also making the runs more maintainable.

I've got mixed feelings about the "dumbing down", but I can see why it's being done, and if it gets more folk into biking then it has to be a good thing. And if it's techy riding you're after there are tons of other places to go after all, whereas there aren't many good places to go if you're just beginning.

Road roller? Nah...the climbs have been chewed up over the winter. Its rougher/rockier if anything.

Think black was scheduled to re-open about now after the felling.

they've filled in some of the lower red trails and taken away a number of rooty corners. I think it's a shame, because on some of them I was just managing to clear them and some I struggled on, so it was the right level of challenge for me.

I understand needing to cater for different levels, but why can't we have alternate routes round the 'harder' bits, rather than just flattening the obstacle altogether?

its a matter of repair not sanitising - areas get eroded away and have to be repaired - its cyclical.

Starts off smooth and groomed - erodes and gets rougher, starts to go thru the structure of the track, relaid as a nice smooth track and the process continues.

Yeah theres always room for optins, especially at Glentress, surely theres enough room there for trails to suit all abilities. Shame if they ruin it, its by far the best of the Stanes IMO. Looking forward to the Mash Up there in July 😛

The corner on Magic Mushroom Wood, just before where the logpile used to be has been backfilled with gravel. I rode around it thinking "this is a piece of p!ss", then SLAM, tasted gravel. Unpleasant. I was then in a grumpy mood and didn't want to play anymore*.

* I had separated my shoulder in January, and it's still not 100%, so a slam was unwelcome. Luckily (!?) I landed on the other shoulder.

Just home from GT now. I would say the grading of the red is correct.

There is no way its blue grade. My 11 year old will ride the blue no problem but would freak out and probably crash if she tried the red.

It is a bit variable though, but as pointed out, it does require maintenance which can result in sanitising some sections for a bit.

Was glad to see quite a few foreign johnnies and julies for that matter there today. Think its folk over for the world cup in Ft Bill doing a bit of exploring.

TandemJeremy - Member
its a matter of repair not sanitising - areas get eroded away and have to be repaired - its cyclical.

exactly, and it just depends on the point within the cycle that you visit.

However, I disagree with what was done with the Magic Mushroom corner, a chicken run would have been far better as it's just motorway now.

That the one with all the roots? Over the years the step at teh end of it had got bigger and bigger and more and more soil had washed out from between the roots - if its the one I am thinking of.

[i]That the one with all the roots? Over the years the step at teh end of it had got bigger and bigger and more and more soil had washed out from between the roots - if its the one I am thinking of[/i]

I think it is. Used to be the best line was straight through the middle, though when it was wet I think my success rate was less than 50%. There used to be a big log pile just after it too, for the show offs to ride (show off = someone better than me).

IA - Member
As above, plus they're sanitising the red a bit - but I understand why, the volume of riders of varying skill.

Though it's now the case it's by far the least technical of all the stanes red routes. I think it's red only cos of the length now.

I didn't think it was any less technical than the red runs Kirroughtree or AE - it was certainly faster though.

The big log pile was rotten and had to be removed. The corner before it will erode over time and no doubt eventually will become rooty again. But as TJ says it's cyclical. Post maintenance the trails will be smoother than they were pre maintenance but in general they won't be rebuilt to be less challenging than they were originally built to be.

There does seem to be one exception to that, though. For reasons of sustainability/low maintenance, completely rebuilt sections can't be built with as steep an average gradient as some of the older trails have. But in many cases the plan is to keep old trails at their current gradients where possible.

I am with IA on GT being the easiest of the 7Stanes reds. Much much less technical than Kirroughtree or even Inners.

I am with IA on GT being the easiest of the 7Stanes reds. Much much less technical than Kirroughtree or even Inners.

Unless I'm mistaken, apart from a couple of 1ft drops, there isn't anything that I would describe as technical on the red at Kirroughtree.

Kirroughtree's certainly far, far smoother than glentress, which always makes me laugh a bit because it never gets criticised for it- while GT is variously "too smooth" and "too worn out" depending on who you believe 😉 The wee rock gardens and steps at KT can be a bit intimidating to people and it's generally narrower but personally, I reckon GT's red is technically more challenging on balance. Neither is hard tbh. GT has a lot more optional bits- and again that amuses me, because I've seen people use the shortcuts and chicken runs then later comment that the route was "a bit easy". Take the proper lines then!

The black and red descents are only closed due to forestry ops as someone mentioned, they're all still there- the closure was lifted for a wee while over christmas and none of the trails were touched at all.

The cartwheel on Magic Mushroom is wearing back in nicely I reckon, agreed it was a shame when it got buried, it needed work but maybe it could have been done less invasively. But it'll recover.

There's another big bit on Magic Mushroom which is probably going to cause howls of derision when it opens, because it's wide smooth and fast as all hell, and really is going to be a bit of a motorway... but it replaces a section in bad ground which was falling apart, and a big build was needed to make it durable. I don't like it much but it's the practical option given the ground conditions and access, it's been no fun to work in and the old trail was ****ed.

As for the climbs... Has there been any work on the climbs lately? Can't think of any at all. Other than endless fannying about with the "new" logs on the dougie bank.

If they are dumbing the trails down then surely it is affecting the grading? Is the red still in keeping with a red grade trail? (I've no idea as it's been so long since I was at Glentress)

If the trail is no longer red then it should be regraded OR if it is intended to remain as a red then it should be built as a red and not as a Blueish-red - yes people are riding the trails and a lot don't have the necessary skills - but why remove the need to improve the skills? Surely if it is red then those who can't ride red at present have something to aim for to improve upon? Reducing it down to Blue doesn't really give them an incentive to get better (although they may not be interested in improving just out to enjoy themselves - which is a slightly different kettle of fish).

and if it gets more folk into biking then it has to be a good thing.

Not sure I agree with this sentiment, I hear it all the time across loads of sports but I see positives (of course) and plenty of negatives in expanding sports.

The grading system across the UK is a bit haphazard - it seems gradings are about as consistent as peoples views on the trails.

Rode past the section of Black that has been closed the other week, it looks like an avalanche came down the hill just above the entrance to Deliverance. Trees down all over the place, must have been that late bit of heavy snow bringing down the younger trees.

Gradings are a bit like horoscopes - how can it be consistent with only four categories ? It is to give people an idea, not a strict rulebook.

If its quiet, challenging natural rooty trails you are looking for try Blairadam or Pitmedden in Fife. More roots than you can shake a stick at.

GT is certainly a victim of its own success. But at least it's not like it's promoting the use of crack as a leisure activity. More people on bikes = a good thing, overall, surely.

That being said: the best and most techie bits (IMHO) of GT aren't on the maps, as many folk know. They're down those little bits of trail that you see off the side of 'mapped' trails that you ride past and think to yourself, "I wonder where that goes..."

Lotsa fun exploring, to be shore.

If you think its too easy, why not ride something harder? Or enjoy it for what it is. One of the things that pushed me away from climbing is the obsession with grading, working out just how good you are, or how hard a route you could lead. All this faffing and moaning about grading of routes is just a bit daft. How do you guys manage when you ride natural trails?

grading of trails - wish it had never happened
we didnt have it before so why now??
there seems to be a compulsion to measure everything and to take away judgement from individuals
lets just ride the trails 🙂

[i]grading of trails - wish it had never happened
we didnt have it before so why now??
there seems to be a compulsion to measure everything and to take away judgement from individuals
lets just ride the trails [/i]

I agree about 80% with that, but the grades do act as a means of giving folk some idea of what to expect when they set out on a route, rather than having their day spoiled by ending up on a route that's too hard/easy for them. At GT it's easy to swap between routes, but that's not the case elsewhere.

That said, folk shouldn't regard the gradings as gospel. No matter what grade of trail you're on you should always be looking ahead and making snap judgements. That's one of the fun things about the sport.

And there are tons of harder places to ride than GT if that's what folk want. There's all the natural stuff too. You can get bits of natural trail that have sections equivalent to green, blue, red and black all within a few hundred yards. That keeps you alert!

Grading is very subjective. I've ridden blacks that could almost be blue and reds that are definately black.

While we have the distance vs.hard obstical problem in grading I think there will always be a lot of ambiguity.

I like the fact that things change. Change is generally good. While one bit gets easier other bits will get harder. It's a difficult job to maintain trails in precisely the right condition year on year so a bit of variablity is to be expected. It may not suit you but someone else may love it.

There's another big bit on Magic Mushroom which is probably going to cause howls of derision when it opens, because it's wide smooth and fast as all hell, and really is going to be a bit of a motorway... but it replaces a section in bad ground which was falling apart, and a big build was needed to make it durable.

Most of that bit is actually a resurfacing job, with a corner getting banked up. It'll be wide and fast initially but no doubt will get narrower and a bit rougher as the trail gets ridden. It would be a bit strange (and difficult) to repair a badly worn section so it is only half worn, after all. 🙂 Given how much height is lost on that big corner I expect that it'll pick up braking bumps quite quickly, no matter how heavily built it is.

The actually new bit of the section is the (comparatively) narrow and wiggly bit at the start of it that the Trailfairies didn't actually have much to do with. Also I think there may be a longer-term plan to replace the wide 'n' fast corner with something longer and wigglier at some point, to reduce its gradient to a more sustainable level.

I do not think that the red route at Glentress is easier than Kirroughtree's, nor Mabie's (it's been too long since I rode Dalbeattie or Newcastleton to comment about them and I haven't ridden Ae). Kirroughtree's black is more challenging on a technical level than Glentress's, though the Glentress black still seems to be an equal physical challenge - some big climbs and a surface that can be pretty punishing on hardtails.

I do wonder whether some people when they compare how difficult Glentress used to be to how they find it now are forgetting that they've now got several years of experience extra under their belts. I'm certain I'm faster on the red than I used to be but that's because I know it so well, not because it's been dumbed down.

"[i]some big climbs and a surface that can be pretty punishing on hardtails"- here here! I took my hardtail at the weekend to do the black up to the mast and I had forgotten just how rough it is in places. Dropped back down on Ho Chi Min which was as ace as ever.

I think that Glentress has been a victim of it's own success. At the beginning the trails were much more natural but as there were not too many riders this wasn't an issue. As it became more popular the trails got worn out quickly and had to be repaired. As it's such as successful place to go, these repairs have to be done a certain way to make sure they last. As a post above says, if you go from a very worn out section of trail to one that has been recently repaired then it will seem like it has been sanitised. Give it a while and it will get harder. Or go off pists and find the natural stuff- just don't ruin it with braking bumps!

"If they are dumbing the trails down then surely it is affecting the grading? Is the red still in keeping with a red grade trail? (I've no idea as it's been so long since I was at Glentress)"

They aren't dumbing it down to the extent some people would have you believe, and it's still in keeping with pretty much every red I've seen bar Nevis Red. Which is black. One or two specific features have been changed or removed, a couple of sections redesigned to stop them wearing out etc but the overall difficulty level isn't much changed. Pie Run's probably one of the bits that people find more difficult out of hte whole route and I gather it's one of the newest bits (before my time).

No prospect at all of regrading it blue, especially considering the number of southerners I've spoken to who're surprised at how challenging it is for a red 😉 Spend a saturday morning in the forest watching other riders and see how many people are finding it too easy, it's a lot less than you'd expect. And even the ones who're finding it easy are usually having a blast going faster, going for more air or better lines, doing the optional bits etc.

The black OTOH could probably be reclassified as a red with minimal effort IMO, much like was done at Innerleithen. But that's another story.

Think ChrisL was spot on, we evolve as riders but the trails don't change in the same way. Glentress was definately a lot harder a year ago, I could barely get down the Pie Run and the black exit was unthinkably terrifying, therefore it must have got easier... Or I learned to ride 😉 OTOH, some bits of Pennel's Vennel have got harder to ride and more interesting through erosion.

Grades are helpful. If you were a top rider, you'd be peeved about wasting time on a green forest track. If you're not so skilled, blacks are no fun at all.

So sometimes you find it a little easier or harder than you expect from the grade in your head. So what!?

chris/northwind - IMHO GT has been dumbed down to ridiculous lengths over the past few years. It has never been very technical, none of the 7 stanes are!
I'll give you a couple of small examples all in a small area of the forest -
there was nothing difficult about the pie run but the need was felt for filling in the only root section that required a little thought to get through cleanly in the wet.
The entrance to the worm hole was ****ed around with to create a crappy one line wonder with less flow
Pretty much all the roots on that trail with the log pile were filled in not just the ones near the logpile.
whatever the trail after spooky wood's called is absolutely shite now that it is just a motorway.
I could go on and on.. but I don't know the names of all the sections, I did however used to know almost all the roots and nice natural kickers all over GT, sadly a lot don't even exist now.

It's still enjoyable, but nowhere near as much as it was a few years back.. and it's nothing to do with progressing as a rider (as I get older I am regressing in that department)

"whatever the trail after spooky wood's called is absolutely shite now that it is just a motorway."

Eh? Super G just a motorway? Couldn't disagree more tbh. As for Pie Run, loads of people complained about that bit, so apparently there was something difficult about it? (I could ride it btw 😉 And so could most of the volunteers who built it and then rebuilt it- before my time but they did a brilliant job, lovely bit of trail IMO)

thanks for your honesty, but Super G (now I've been reminded of it's name) used to have nice ruts and holes that you could use to pump through hop into and rail corners, the loose corners are now gone and natural flow has been replaced with bermed corners and rubbish jumps the whole thing is just lame.
was that before your time too?

I rode it before the last major resurfacing, though it's possible you're going further back than that, from what you describe. But I don't see why that would be relevant to whether or not it's a motorway [i]now[/i]...

trail after spooky wood's called is absolutely shite now that it is just a motorway

+ what Northwind said. It's one of the most fun trail centre runs I've done. The fashion I've noticed lately is to take perfectly decent bit of twisty single-track and dump a pile of bricks and football sizes rocks every 20m. And then call it 'technical'.

Technical to me was always steep not pointless justification of 6 inches of travel both ends.

I just wish that they wouldnt smooth it out quite so much when they do resurface it.

The black is pretty safe from dumbing down - can't think of any real developments in 5, 6 years.

Interesting what ChrisL says about gaining in experience - I recall first riding the boundary trail descent years ago and thinking it was awesome. Now, in hindsight, it seems the biggest missed opportunity in the whole system. 200m of height, on a black-graded trail, given over to a pretty uninspiring run IMHO. With the relatively sparse traffic it gets, though, a complete redoing would never happen.

Speaking from the very bottom of the pile here....GT is heaven for blue route riders. I still haven't ridden anything like Electric Blue and I don't think I ever will. I love going fast, that bit of track is built for it. I can't comment on the red, but a whole world of languages went past us on the climb up to Buzzards.
Gradings. They make me want to cry. At the moment, I'm not good enough to ride a bridleway I've never seen before. I can deal with 1 foot drops, dry roots, gently rocky bits. That's it. So trail centres are where I go to be sure I can ride something without having to hike my bike for 2 hrs. Nothing wrong with bike hiking, you understand, but sometimes I just want to go as fast as my bike can possibly go, and trail centres let me do that, in places. I can't be alone, I really can't. So gradings are a source of epic confusion and frustration for me and it's proper narking me, tbh.

I rode it before the last major resurfacing, though it's possible you're going further back than that, from what you describe.

But I don't see why that would be relevant to whether or not it's a motorway now...

tinribz - it was never technical, very little at GT is.

"eh? is that's not what this thread's about?"

That's what the title's about. But your post is just about slagging what's there now. So you liked the old trails, that's great, sounds like I would have too- but the changes aren't to "dumb it down" and I think you know that fine well. And if you're going to call Super G motorway I'm afraid I just can't understand you at all, I can't reconcile that with the reality and from the sounds of it neither can tinribz, and I'm sure plenty of others.

Take a hardtail down it and stop complaining. 😛

I've not been recently but they have certainly smoothed out the trails at Carron Valley.

Aye, any new work done on a trail will be far smoother than what was there (already mentioned previously in this thread), once a new piece of trail has been completed/open it still takes time to bed down and wear in...so the newly finished stuff will take a few months to finally get to where it should be but until then it's all very smooth...but that doesn't last long. If you can move away from that point (as it won't be reality for much longer as the new trail beds in), do you think the new trail work has made it easier (dumbed down)?

Northwind - I'm really struggling to not poke fun at you're naivety here.
from roughly half way down (where the short old table top jump was - before your time) to the end, Super G is a motorway!
don't take the huff because I've described a bit of track you obviously enjoy as "Motorway", I don't mean it has 3 lanes and a hardshoulder FFS, smooth wide easy DH track has always been described as "motorway" by DH riders/racers like me. If you prefer that to singletrack, good for you.. but don't go trying to say it's not tame compared to what was there before, especially if you never even rode what was there before! and for the purpose of this thread is that not exactly the meaning of "dumbing down"?
I rarely go to GT these days and when I do I still enjoy it, it's still a fun place to ride, but the Red route in particular is def a less challenging route than it once was.

Take a hardtail down it and stop complaining.

<ironic smiley> 🙄

If trail maintenance/repair work is done on a trail section of course it is going to be smoother than it was before the work was done. It will probably be easier to ride than it was when it was in need of repair. I don't accept that as dumbing down, though, as the trail is being returned to something like its originally intended state, not altered to something easier than its original form.

Trails wear in, then wear out, then get repaired or replaced. If people say "Glentress has been dumbed down because sections X, Y and Z got smoothed out", unless all trails are maintained at exactly the same time (and they're not), aren't they ignoring the trails A, B and C are continuing to get more eroded and so are getting harder?

I have spoken to several of the MTB rangers at Glentress and they are adamant that there's no deliberate dumbing down or sanitising of the trails at Glentress. They're often quite hurt by the accusations levelled at them and the other trailbuilders. They're all keen cyclists and MTBers (have a look at MTB Ranger Andy Wardman's CX video if you need persuaded that he's handy on a bike!) and are endeavouring to create and maintain trails as appropriate for their gradings.

there was nothing difficult about the pie run but the need was felt for filling in the only root section that required a little thought to get through cleanly in the wet.

When the Pie Run was built the roots on "That Bit" (its semi-offical name 🙂 ) were not as exposed as they ended up being. As the surface around the roots wore away more and more riders started having problems with That Bit. It may not have been a hard section by your standards but it ended up harder than it was intended to be and it was causing problems for a lot of people who otherwise appeared to consider themselves red graded riders. Plus its position halfway along the initial, fast, bit of the Pie Run meant that it killed a lot of flow (even for good riders if they came across someone recovering from a slip-up there) which spoiled the rest of the section.

When That Bit got reworked the original line that chucked you at its roots at a bad angle was left in place and a better line was added. The roots were filled over, yes, but they're exposed again, as the trailbuilders always knew they would be. In time they'll probably become very exposed again and a decision will be made whether the surfacing there should be redone again.

The entrance to the worm hole was **** around with to create a crappy one line wonder with less flow

Interesting. Up to now the accusation of dumbing down has generally been used to mean "been made easier", but in this case the Wormhole's entrance was made more difficult (or at least I see fewer people ride it than the old entrance) but as it is less interesting to you it's been dumbed down...

Pretty much all the roots on that trail with the log pile were filled in not just the ones near the logpile.

Piffle. Sections that were turning into swamp or had standing water were resurfaced. Again, as the trails wear in roots will be exposed but there's still plenty of roots on Magic Mushroom.

whatever the trail after spooky wood's called is absolutely shite now that it is just a motorway.

Actually I sort-of agree with you there. 🙂 I prefer Super G as it used to be. However I'm not convinced that it's a victim of dumbing down. The old sections were getting really badly eroded with breaking bumps and so on all over the place. The decision to rebuild them like they are now is probably due to the fact that it comes right after Spooky Wood and that is obviously a massively popular piece of trail. So when the section following Spooky Wood needed some serious rennovation, adding big berms and some tabletops probably seemed like an obvious idea.

Not only that but IIRC, when I first rode at Glentress the table tops and jumps on Super G were some of the biggest on the red route. There was even a warning sign before its tabletop! But as Spooky Wood upped the red graded trail jump ante, the jumps and berms on Super G were upgraded when it got reworked.

I believe that the idea of making such trails wide is so that riders are able to help define the lines that get ridden, rather than the line being defined entirely by the trailbuilder. As trails get established the undergrowth will reclaim the unridden lines.

I could go on and on.. but I don't know the names of all the sections, I did however used to know almost all the roots and nice natural kickers all over GT, sadly a lot don't even exist now.

Were those roots and kickers there when the trails were originally built or from another point of view could they be seen as signs of erosion or trail damage?

thanks for your honesty, but Super G (now I've been reminded of it's name) used to have nice ruts and holes

They were probably not part of the original design! 😉

tinribz - it was never technical, very little at GT is.

There's quite a lot of forum evidence, GW, that your definition of "technical" is quite different to that of many average trail riders...

I love GT and the work people put in to keep it one of the best centres in the UK.

When will the black part be open again and are ALL the trails that were in there still there?

I don't know when the logging work will be done, but all of the trails in the affected area will still be there when it is.

If you haven't been to GT in some time then you should be warned that the Ewok Village and the elevated wooden section of Double X had to be taken down last year. This isn't due to dumbing down either, it's because of rotten wood. They will be replaced, but it may take a while, I gather.

I have heard that there are some plans to rebuild The Matrix and Lombard Street (the closed bits of the red) but I don't know what timescale is attached to that, either.

Chris, out of interest, what's your take on the definition of "dumbing down" as being used in this thread? - I'm not going to bother answering every point you've made as you've clearly got issues with those two particular words being stuck together and used anywhere near your hard work.

I'll give you an example of my definition using "Magic mushroom" as ana example now you've reminded me of it's name..
ok.. here goes - couple of pedal strokes in to the trail entrance, jump the natural whoopy double (destroyed in one weekend by SXC mincers and never rebuilt), pump the landing, couple more pedal strokes and hit the loose flat right hander, scrub the little table while transferring over to the fastest outside line, pedal towards the l'il bridge thing, brake and drift off the wee drop and slide into the left hand line of a rather nice root section, pumping through to keep enough momentum to turn in and hop onto the small wooden bridge, on the pedals again for a slight rise full of roots, once on the flat, sprint towards a nicely placed beraking bump/root that you can use to jump a whole corner full of roots landing in a compression, follow the s-shape of the trail using the ruts and holes to pump speed (no pedalling required, hold the line round to the humpy bridge, manual on and set-up for the tight turn, back on the pedals again to the next rooty turns, holding it tight to the inside tree to straightline through two turns without pedalling until over them, nice twisty but flat and lung bursting sprint down through the trees with a few relitively easily negotiated roots to keep you on your toes into the first of two jumps (that now have no lips) table off the second into the well worn berm and shoot off towards the best root section at GT (felt shite if you got it wrong, but sooo good if you pinned it over that turn sliding and made it feet up, if yougot that right it always made more sense to avoid the rubbish log pile, from here it hasn't changed much til you get to the new boardwalk (which is rubbish compared to what was there before).
now I'm not going to describe riding the section as it now is but you have to admit it's nothing like I just described now, is it? there just aren't half as many options. if that's not "dumbed down" then what is?

Chris, out of interest, what's your take on the definition of "dumbing down" as being used in this thread? - I'm not going to bother answering every point you've made as you've clearly got issues with those two particular words being stuck together and used anywhere near your hard work.

I am not particularly sensitive to the term "dumbing down". "Trail sanitisation" winds me up just as much. 😉

Let's imagine the life cycle of a typical purpose-built trail:

[list=1]
[*]Trail is built.[/*]
[*]Trail is ridden. The more the trail is ridden, the more worn it becomes. It may narrow as one riding line is preferred over others. It may develop braking bumps and pot holes. This wear and tear may modify or create features that some riders find interesting or valuable. E.g. a few roots get exposed or the lip to a hole can be used to make a jump.[/*]
[*]Eventually the trail has worn substantially and the trailbuilders do some maintenance on it or rebuild it. Hopefully the things hated by many riders (e.g. braking bumps) will go but it's almost unavoidable that features loved by some will be lost too.[/*]
[*]And repeat...[/*]
[/list]

I'd say it's dumbing down if the trail maintenance/rebuilding work produces a trail of a lower grade to the trail as it was originally built. As I said before a repaired trail section will probably vary in difficulty over its life cycle but as long as it stays within the acceptable difficulty spectrum for its grade during its lifetime then it hasn't been dumbed down.

now I'm not going to describe riding the section as it now is but you have to admit it's nothing like I just described now, is it? there just aren't half as many options. if that's not "dumbed down" then what is?

Wow that was quite difficult to read! Still I think I recognised a fair chunk of it, though I don't have the photographic memory for trails that you appear to have, so I don't know all the details. All the roots around the first couple of bridges are still there and there are definitely jumpable lips on the straight after them.

The cartwheel corner has undeniably been filled in. The roots there are however returning, as the trailbuilders intended. It will become tricky again in time and I doubt it'll get filled in again until it has become very tricky. Before it was filled, the carthweel was getting increasingly hard with increasing rapidity. I don't remember it being as bad when I started at Glentress as it was before it was filled.

Claiming that the cartwheel corner has been dumbed down at least partly ignores that it had been getting harder and that something had to be done if it was going to remain part of a red graded trail. It'd be lovely if trails could be maintained at a very exact level of challenge but that's just not possible. It's got to be done with the aim of keeping a trail within the spectrum of what's acceptable for its grade.

The maintenance on Magic Mushroom was started in spring last year, I think, because the trail had been hammered by the previous winter. It was disintegrating, some bits had standing water and other parts were getting very mushy. It couldn't be left like that. I would be very surprised though if any of the maintenance was carried out with the intention of making it easier than it was when it was originally constructed.

"and for the purpose of this thread is that not exactly the meaning of "dumbing down"?"

Making sustainable. Do you think for a second that the old trail would survive the traffic glentress gets? Of course it couldn't. It's not about "dumbing down", it's just repairs and preventative medicine. Even the heavily armoured trails get torn up fast enough, especially with knobbers skidding everywhere. It seems like you just have an issue with the reality of busy trail centres, they're never going to give you the fix you want- especially on a red route.

A wee example. Most of the way down Falla Brae, we spent a morning resurfacing and rerouting a wee corner, just below the car park. There was nothing hugely difficult about it but it had really bad braking bumps in the approach, because it had a fast run in and then people banged on the brakes. Now, the corner was opened up a little and made more approachable, and given a slight camber, not to make it easy but because otherwise we'd be back in there in 6 months digging it up again and fixing it again. So instead of spending the rest of time rebuilding braking bumps the trailbuilders changed the line slightly to allow more speed and better sightlines, and to remove the unneccesary hard braking. Now, you'd probably call that "sanitisation". I'd call it common sense, and good design.

Dumbing down is changing a trail just because it's too hard for the little kiddies. Trail maintenance is changing a trail because it's knackered and not as designed, or not working properly. Now I'll guiltily admit I did prefer the old knackered bit in Magic Mushroom, and the worn-out bit in Pie Run, but neither was supposed to be like that.

Just to go back a bit to talk about "motorway", fair play, it seems like our definition is just different. Guess we have to agree to disagree there. For me, a motorway trail would be... well, The Motorway at Fort William, which is just a complete absence of anything, basically a fire road with jumps on. If you're applying a definition common among DH racers for DH trails are you surprised I'm taking issue when you apply it to an XC red route?

Most of gt i realise is tame, but the beauty of the place is the variaty. Easy, hard, fast, slow can all be mixed in depending on what you feel like.
Oh and as much as super-g is a motorway now it has an awesome left hand berm in it about half way down...

Yeah, I agree 100% with the above.

Northwind - Yeah, I am surprised you took issue with it.
and if you'd ever cleared every one of those jumps on the Motorway at Ft William after 4mins+ of brutality you'd realise it is quite a test of both fitness and skill in laughable proportions in comparison to super G.

Chris - WOW!! are you about to publish a Phd on the subject or what? - appologies for my terrible grammar and composition earlier, this is how it should have read:

I'm not going to describe the entire section as it rides now, but you have to admit it's nothing like I just described? there just aren't half as many options. If that's not "dumbed down" then what is?

I'm well aware of all the points you and Northwind have made regarding trail building/grading etc. I'll freely admit I've never been a fan of any sort of trail grading or any of the politics/BS that goes along with running these type of trails, if I ride at a trail centre I'll happily ride a mix of every grade of trail and find fun lines I enjoy riding even on a green route. bear in mind tho I'm old enough to remember GT/inners before any official trail building back when people could make decisions based on common sense/ability rather than having to look at coloured signs.

"if I ride at a trail centre I'll happily ride a mix of every grade of trail and find fun lines I enjoy riding even on a green route"

That seems like a proper glentress attitude tbh... One of the best things about it.

Admittedly when I rode the motorway it wasn't after a race pace descent, that'd be hard to produce on an XC bike 😉 I think my average speed was approximately nothing. But I think you probably see where I'm coming from? The fact that it comes after a huge and brutal descent doesn't change that it's a fire road with jumps on.

If you are going to moan about it then you are not goin fast enough on the descents or do us a favour and dont go back,go ride somewhere else there are plenty of riders who still enjoy it.Better still get your spade out your arse and go help the trail fairys!