[Closed] the demise of decent customers (lbs content)

was out riding nr Cardiff with on of my best mates this past weekend..

we were talking about LBS vs online...

think the issues are two fold:

1. The rise of the internet, in the early 90's I bought all my bike stuff from Dave Mellor cycles... he sold all I needed and instead of getting cash for saturday boy work, he just took money off my tab.

2. There are so many more 'specialisms' in cycling now... back in the day your choices were limited.. road bike or mtb... suspension forks - 3 brands and only one fork each in each of their 'ranges'

now there are so many different types of cycling that doubt any shop could afford to keep stuff to suit all needs.. thus big online places with lower overheads can stack stuffed to the rafters in a big crinkly tin shed and cater for all..

I get 90% of my stuff from online places, 5% from evans / cycle surgery but only with price match and 5% from local lbs - but then for things like cables or cleaning spray...

would like to buy more from LBS they are a nice shop and helpful, but often shut when I'm near it as still at work (not their fault) and on line ordering is quick and convenient.

Just the way of the world I suppose.

But how in the name of God is "making the customer wait" going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online?

How in the name of god is giving my stuff away a good business plan?

Who asked you to give it away? Just a bit of respect and less attitude.

I don't really care about the price of 99% of my bike purchases to be honest - what's a fiver here or there when you're getting the piece of gear you want and getting it with a smile and a friendly attitude? Example - I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday to drop off my Lynskey for a service. I live in the centre of Edinburgh so have maybe a dozen bike shops within spitting distance yet I took it somewhere that is not the cheapest and I have to go back to get it. I could've saved myself £20 in diesel but would rather get good service. Holding kit back on your "service match" - crap service.

don simon - Member

Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?

So does that mean you'll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day... and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC...

;o)

So does that mean you'll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day... and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC...

😀

😳 sorry for the double post 😳 cold, fat fingers!

Stoatsbrother - Member

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

The trouble is so many of us get Crap service at an LBS price.

But that is a different arguement and if a shop gives you crap service you are quite right to walk away. Don't forget that we, as a group, are also quite a bit more demanding than the average Joe because we generally know exactly what we want and won't be fobbed off with something else.

There are also a few people here who have more knowledge/experience than the most accomplished mechanic, which might not be well received. 😉

But Charlie, you don't know, as the customer that it's worse. I was responding to the chappy earlier, let me put it into context.

I have a product X for price Y
Customer L comes in and asks for product X saying they can get it from Internet shop A for price Y-20% and they are in no rush.
a) buy it from the internet (and don't waste my time)
b) pay price Y and walk away with the product now
c) I hold product X and order one for you, which fits into your timeframe, and let you pay price y-20% (provided I still make profit). Because by selling the product I have on the shelf I am removing the possibility of selling at full retail to the next guy who walks through the door and I win nothing.
You are looking for product X at price Y-20% and have time to wait- you're happy in that you've given a little bit of business to the lbs and satisfied your conscience.
I'm happy because I've sold extra product.
And the second customer is happy because he needed the part last minute before going on holiday and the internet couldn't deliver in time.
I think everyone is getting exactly what they want, no?
Not and everyday occurance.

I don't work in a shop.

"Support your LBS" is firmly in the same territory as "act fair in the spirit of Ebay"

Both are crock.

To the title:

the demise of decent customers

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

[i]Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly. [/i]

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in! 😉

My LBS is awful for customer service, and renowned for it. I'm amazed they're still in business.

I drove to Leeds (I live in Sheffield), to get better customer service.

Good customer service is worth paying a bit extra for.

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

Bingo, so long as your still able to make a profit, returning custom is all you can ask for. At the end of the day, the customer is always right, even when they're wrong 😉 . All you can do is advise.

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in!

But thats the nature of a shop. Everytime you visit Zara etc do you walk out with something 100% of the time?

I drove [b]50 mile[/b] round trip yesterday ........ I could've saved myself [b]£20[/b] in diesel

Maybe it's time to consider a slightly more economical car?

and never bringing biscuits in!

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good ?

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good?

Aye but the 'centre of the community/hub to the cycling community' sadly doesn't except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

Also look at the Arnold Clark/Car dealership sales tactic: Use the offer of a 20p cup of tea to extract thousands from your customers. Let the customer feel 'as a friend'.

Then, when you don't have an income, try popping into the shop thats friend s with you and watch how they treat you after a while of not buying anything....

I don't have a 'Local' bike shop. nearest one is a 16 mile round trip, and the nearest one with decent stock levels and knowledgeable staff is a 50 mile round trip. Which is why I use the 'net for most of my stuff, and have learned to look after my bike

oh, guys: You're pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon's POV from a business stand point, good job some of you don't run shops, you wouldn't last long.

People have the right to spend there money where they want. Times are tight and people will generally go for the best financially viable option. This option takes into account time, price, fitting and convenience.

Online suppliers are a good thing and offer another option to people. I can't see a GOOD LBS going out of business unless it through bad service and poor reputation.

oh, guys: You're pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon's POV from a business stand point,

😉

Aye but the 'centre of the community/hub to the cycling community' sadly doesn't except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

And what's wrong with that? Do you work for free...?

I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday ........ I could've saved myself £20 in diesel
Maybe it's time to consider a slightly more economical car?

I was reckoning on the 100 mile all in journey to drop off then return to collect - 25 (actually 29) miles each way x 4.

In any event, I drive a Land Rover. I gave up thinking about fuel economy years ago.

Thanks for defining your idea more clearly (for the benefit of the group)... While I think it may (or really, may not) have changed from simply being a grudge, I still think it's seriously flawed.

If you really want to make a service statement, is there an option to run a bike shop with two prices on all parts. One is price for the part only (to compete with the internet), and the other is a fitted price.

So, for example:

CK headset £90
CK headset fitted £110

I keep missing the part where Don Simon expressed a grudge...

There is no grudge. Please tell me where you see a grudge?
Some people get it, others no. That's life.

The last direct questions I asked weren't answered, so please answer this. 😀

You can please some of the people all of the time... etc.

EDIT: You're still not comparing like with like. 😉

I have been keeping an eye on this thread with great interest over the past couple of days, why? Well....

I am considering opening an LBS myself - DON'T I hear you say! You could be right and this could be the best advice ever, but....

I love bikes! And further more I love working with & helping people to make informed decisions and to meet the needs of the customer.

However, there is a fundamental issue with this....not every customer actually knows what their needs are when they actually go into a shop.

So....

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs - this way you'll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

Every point of every customer that has commented on this thread is actually right....because it is what they feel and/or have experienced. Therefore it is down to the LBS to change this for them on the day that person actually does walk into their shop as a customer.

We are all decent customers (in our own way) and we have the choice to make, online or LBS? Its your choice. But if you become a customer of mine I like many other LBS's (not all I agree) will do our best to help you.

And what's wrong with that? Do you work for free...?

No and neither do customers. Not every customer walks in and whacks down a three grand wodge then drives off in his Audi Q7. Bikeshops should understand that cycling enthusiasts earn peanuts too. It took me weeks to decide what colour chris king hubs to have as it was alot of money. In the end Al/Wheelcraft told me 'yer getting blue/pay me when they arrive' 😆

I've just been to Evans Manchester this evening to sort out a issue on my frame. Saw me on the spot and resolved.

Yes its Evans but I've had nothing but good service from them. You'd think everyone slips up in a while and boy have I caught a few. Not that store. I wonder who the manager is and his/her approach (as it bloody works).

I've never experienced bad service from anyone in that store either.

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs - this way you'll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is "no", I won't sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I'll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I'm more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is "no", I won't sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I'll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I'm more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The difference between want & need is usually cost, so rarely will you EVER sell something to someone they actually 'want', the trick is to find out want they need and sell to this need - and in my experience as sales manager for the last 20 years 'this is the ONLY way to sell'.

I think we agree, I have examples of customers wanting a nice and shiney Kamasa tool kit, which quite frankly was sh1te, and I had hell of a time convincing a young mechanic that what he needed was something more professional/expensive. So yes, in saying "no", I was giving him what he needed. He was still talking to me a couple of months later, so I guess I done good.

so I guess I done good.

You done good! 🙂

Thanks. 😆

the need for specialisation is what is killing some bike shops and conversely letting others flourish. in Edinburgh we have quite a few bike shops and among the best are the bike chain and the tri shop but if i want something fixed and it isn't a warranty type thing i use the" bike works" they don't sell bikes they just fix them and usually make a damn fine job of it, the prices (imnsho) are damn reasonable. they have lent me tools and ordered stuff for me ok sometimes i have to wait and yes they aren't as cheap as crc but when i break things (and i do ) they fix it promptly. in the last few years i have spent a ridiculous amount of money in edinburgh bike shops and hope to continue doing so for the forseeable future

Sometimes the need and want are too close together.

The want also psychologically fulfills the need. No one needs a 160/180 fork really unless they need that extra second or are world-class riders.

Its the milking the customer/setting them to feel that popping in to say hello/go on the weekly shop rides means they feel obliged to buy something regularly from them.

Its almost grooming. People are stressed/want to belong/cant get out much due to kids/family and the shop solicits new sales.

Why do you think they organise shop rides/or rides from their shop or offers 'guides'...

Bikeshops are businesses. Don't romance them or paint them as benevolent.

I'm knackered, and my screaming 9 month old is hardly helping me remember whether I've answered your questions or not... I can't believe we're still talking about it.

But this...

I still stand by what I said about making you wait, if you push me to drop my prices, I'll make you wait for collection [b]regardless of whether it's in stock or not[/b].

...is what I read that I thought sounded like a petty grudge. I certainly don't think it's a sound business model.

Hmmm.

Grooming.....

Hmmm.

Grooming.....

POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO

coffee and jaffa cakes works on fat boys

 

Fair enough, but read the rest to see the idea behind the statement, just think about what I've written. I'm not attacking anyone, just introducing my ideas and beliefs and it all began as an open statement to a post way back in history, and not directed at any single person. 😆

hora - Member

Its almost grooming.

druidh - Member

Hmmm.

Grooming...

😯 I have been groomed by Druidh

I have been groomed by Druidh

but teej you needed a trim

 

I'm still waiting to hear how making someone wait for an item you already have in stock and then expecting them to come back and pick it up from the shop is matching the level of service they'd get from an online store which will deliver to their door...

And besides, do people really just dive in and ask about discount straight off, wouldn't they ask if you had any in stock to begin with?

;o)

OK, I'll post it to you, but you don't walk out with it. 😉

That's fine.... now can I order it over the phone, or maybe by email? ;o)

Maybe but you're probably better off going on-line if you want a discounted price. Telephone/email is moving towards internet shopping and without their buying power or discounted rents I can't compete on price alone.

Hora - the good thing about our rides is that we are/were first mates with many attendees. That and everyoneno knows I finish 'work' at 6pm. We do the rides cause we funny enough like riding bikes. Our usual crowd come because they do too .nothing to do with being customers who want to 'belong'. You should come.sometime on the back of tj's clown bike. 😈

Then I fail to see how you are 'service matching' in that instance...

That is all.

Because I don't want your business and I don't care if you buy on-line. There are plenty of other people who are paying for my villa, boat and Ferraris. So, you get the hump and come on STW spreading the word, so what? I lose 5% of potentially loss making business. I don't ****ingcare. You're not important. You are the reason that internet stores saw an opening, and there are other customers that keep Halfords alive.
You're a high maintenance-low profit customer.
Service matching was just a term to say you couldn't have a bike shop experience at internet shop prices. It's not difficult to work out, but you already knew that.

I lose 5% of potentially loss making business.

Well if it was loss making it would clearly not be worth doing. However for what we're talking about it's not, and you know it. Hence whilst you might not be making the margin you'd like you're still making money, and your overheads aren't any less for turning away business, so you're effectively throwing away money.

How does your face feel about the bloody hole where your nose used to be?

You're a high maintenance-low profit customer.

Well personally I'm not particularly high maintenance. I don't need much in the way of advice from my LBS. I very, very rarely need their workshop services, and when I do because they have an unusual tool it's not worth me buying I'm happy to pay the going rate. I never try stuff on or ask advice before buying online. If they don't want my business when I want to buy stuff I could get cheaper online and know exactly what I want then that's their problem - high value stuff I've bought through the LBS I've invariably paid more for and waited longer for than if I'd bought online, so I don't see why I should feel guilty about asking for a discount which didn't even bring them down to online prices. 20% profit on a £500 item (which is no more hassle for them to order than a £100 item) is rather better than 30% or 40% of nothing don't you think? The big question is why on earth did I pay more? Because I see more value in giving my LBS a bit of profit than some faceless online shop - I'm not ripping myself off in order to do so though.

Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?

This bit here..

I still stand by what I said about making you wait, if you push me to drop my prices, I'll make you wait for collection regardless of whether it's in stock or not.

Where you said you'd give a customer worse service if they dared ask for a price match.

Asking if a shop can price match isn't a snub, its offering them the chance to compete for business, and letting them argue their side and decide if its worth it for them or not. Surely its better to at least try to use the LBS instead of just going straight online?

I think its easy for everyone to have this argument on the internet though, what we'd do if it was actually our living on the line would be quite different I suspect. I certainly can't imagine many shop owners turning down any kind business just because they'd make less profit on it. You could have a 5000% profit margin, but 5000% of **** all, is **** all.