now i've been mulling this over and was talking to the GF about it but she's not much help.
i've been riding 'proper' steel bikes for 4 years. prior to that i had alu frames. i then had a 'proper' alu frame fold on me. it was then i turned to steel and appreciated the benefits of its molecular structure.
steel is more 'compliant' (bendy) than alu and this shows on XC orientated frames such as my Sanderson when compared to othe 100mm XC alu frames. it is here on all day rides that i think steel has a very good reason for being used. not so bum punchy.
i've also got an Alpine (not knocking it!). it too is steel but doesn't feel as compliant as it's been beefed-up to cope with the bigger hits its geometry allows. it is also heavy (and i'm a relative light weight). i don't ride XC uppy-downy stuff. more a slog to the top of a hill and then rag it back down.
is a beefy alu frame really less compliant than a beefy steel frame (mmmbop / pig would be a good example - any reviews?). if you're not sitting down to ride long distances, rather slog it up (here the weight of the alu would help) and ragging it back down is there still a big call to have a heavy steel frame?
so what i'm wondering is.....
.....should i stomach the weight of another steel long travel HT or look at an alu frame?
was also interested by Brant's comment in his blue pig video re. the seat stays: "good spring, not a great deal going on there. less spring than most people think"
but then i think i should just MTFU and swallow the weight thing. steel just looks better. nice and clean lines, no oversized tubes.
so, tell me about your long travel HT, steel and alu. pics would be nice, too.....
whatdyafink?
and no i can't have a Ti frame because i'm poor. no, really i am.
any opinions on this one?
Yes. Steel frames look jey. 😛
I find my alu whyte just as springy (if not more) as I ever felt a steel mtb to be. I've got a deda zero road bike and that really does make a difference compared to alu.
After having owned both steel and alu frames I have now drawn the conclusion that 'steel is more springy' compliant or whatever is utter tosh.
i don't know. i think on thinner tubed XC bikes the steel does give some, err...give. but as i said. on chunkier burly long travel HT i'm not so sure.
It's down to so much morre then the material. I could find you a steel bike with a harsher ride than another aluminium one.
personally, I prefer aluminium but I think that's because I'm quite heavy and I really really don't like rust!
The stiffest, most uncomfortable bike I've ridden has to be a Dialled Alpine. I could almost hear my vertebrae snapping.
I was doubtful buying my new alu frame (Banshee Paradox) but that is easily as comfortable as my old steel, but has more snap - nice
[i]it was then i turned to steel and appreciated the benefits of its molecular structure.[/i]
This, Sir, is a sentence to be proud of. I only wish you ahd discussed how the molecular benefits apply to track-standing. 🙂
i turned to steel and appreciated the benefits of its molecular structure
Crystalline structure you mean? 😉
Also, I tend to find my aluminium full suspension bike the least "bum punchy".
as a material, steel is stiffer than aluminium.
210GPa vs 70GPa.
But, aluminium ages badly, flex it enough times and it will snap.
Steel can be flexed forever. (within limits)
early aluminium frames were quite skinny, they flexed, they broke.
So now, aluminium frames are built stiff (bigger diameter tubes) to stop them flexing/snapping.
Steel can be allowed to flex, so we do. we build skinny steel frames, with skinny flexible tubes. some people believe that this makes for a more comfortable ride.
i believe.
(2 frames, both identical, except for material. one is aluminium, one is steel, the steel frame would be 3 times stiffer)
warning! - gross simplifications have been made. don't try and out-pedant me...
Bearing in mind AH that even big stiff Alu frames will bend a bit, how long do you think something like a Cove Stifee will last before it it affected by fatigue? Seeing as my Cape Wrath is around 5 years old now 🙂
Must be harder to compare these days in another way - I haven't seen many hydroformed steel frames. Wheras Alu frames have all sorts of crazy profiles.
I'm suspicious that two triangular metal structures (the seat stay/chain stay seat tube combo on each side) of whatever metal have any flex in them at all, and I would further suggest that any "compliance" or whatever, is in fact the longest unsupported tube (the top tube) flexing. Now I'd say that with careful butting and/or shaping you could make a steel frame behave in an identical manner to an aluminium one, the fact that bike designers/manufacturers mostly don't is probably down to perception of the buying public, and the intended use of the frame.
Don't under estimate also the effect of seat posts and saddles, I ride a Chameleon, it's well know to be "bum punchy" but in fact mine isn't...At all, I use a carbon post and an I beam saddle I can feel the whole lot flexing underneath me.
I have a 2008 Chameleon with carbon seatpost & bars with fat tyres, I didn't feel any flex under me when banding around dalbettie at the weekend, near shook my bones to pieces.
Point it on some fast flowy singletrack, now that's fun 😀
rules of the internet;
#1 - if you can imagine it, there is a porn site to cater for it.
#2 - any thread on singletrackworld.com will tend towards the consensus that 'hardtails are fun, even if they are a bit hard on the ankles/back'.
[url= http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html ]http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html[/url]
Surely the only way to really find out is to have a race!
Get as many riders as possible, with as many steel/aluminium framed bikes as possible. Ride round a set course, and then, at the end of the lap, everyone swaps bike. Repeat until no-one can stand up anymore.
Then, finally, we will all know whether that "steel is real" thing is true, or just marketing hype.
BigDummy - Member
it was then i turned to steel and appreciated the benefits of its molecular structure.This, Sir, is a sentence to be proud of. I only wish you ahd discussed how the molecular benefits apply to track-standing. 🙂
indeed. if only i had. you could then all really rip the shit even more so than now! may be some other time.....
my problem is that i like both the blue pig and mmmbop (shit name). the skinny, elegant tubes and supposed 'steel feel' of the blue pig. the (almost) 2lbs saved on the mmmbop is a big point though. i'm not really one to worry about weight too much but i don't think the supposed +'s of the blue pig outweigh the weight advantage of the mmmbop. plus, as said above, a good carbon post and some fat tyres can go a long way to improving comfort. just like the idea of carrying less weight on a three hour slog uphill.
prob with mmmbop though is that i'd need a new post and headset. not really a big prob though.
I, sir, think you have brought up a very interesting debate.
I'm thinking of "hardcore" alu bikes being such as the SC Chameleon or Cove Stiffee. Steel bikes of a similar nature you have already mentioned.
Now, to choose between them.. the Chameleon/Stiffee type frame has to be lighter than the steel equivalents, doesn't it? Which I think, will make them more comfortable to ride.
Yes, heavy steel frames don't have the more bendy feeling like my Handjob has, so they just feel dead and stiff. (I know this as I have ridden a Duster), I reckon Alu is the deal for this sort of bike.
Maybe...
Should someone like Brant post up and say why he prefers to build these bikes out of steel rather than aluminium? He must have good reasons. That would be interesting.
Should someone like Brant post up and say why he prefers to build these bikes out of steel rather than aluminium?
I make the blue pig out of chromoly steel.
The mmmbop out of 7046 alloy.
The Ti out of 3/2.5 Ti.
All have same geometry.
That's not very interesting. Sorry.
he's been reading this one quietly i think.......
Brant, tell us what to buy.
You can tell the difference sometimes, I did when I rode these two bikes:
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Not quite sure how anyone could call an alpine stiff! I found it to be very flexy and as comfortable as you're ever going to get on a hard tail designed for more than xc riding.
ur bike iz sarazin
some fat tyres can go a long way to improving comfort. just like the idea of carrying less weight on a three hour slog uphill.
Of course, those fat tyres are going to weigh more than a [s]lightweight[/s] skinny set of tyres. And in/on your wheels is exactly where you *don't* want extra weight on "a three hour slog uphill" (especially if the weight is wrapped around the circumference of your wheel - think about rotating mass). Bigger tyres will result in a larger contact patch, which makes them draggy. They also allow you to get away with running lower pressures, which leads to further draggyness. Don't get me wrong, my Chameleon with 2.4's is a lot of fun on stuff that is fairly flat, or ideally points downwards. It's not so good on climbs though, even with the forks wound down.
yup. but the fat tyres are there anyway. steel or no steel. so take away the weight of steel and replace it with alu and you've got a lighter bike.
Sorry, I haven't been paying attention regarding the Mmmbop -its alu eh?
Well, Brant's message was very boring. He surely should be more informative as these are mail order bikes (or have I got that wrong too?)
So, back to what you like the look of then alpin.
He surely should be more informative as these are mail order bikes (or have I got that wrong too?)
[url= http://www.hotlines-uk.com/Information.aspx?TranslationLargeID=37#ragley ]Sorry - yes, you're wrong on that too.[/url]
brant, do you have any german outlet for your gear?
Hello Mr Alpin.
No German dealers yet, but it's in the plan. We're really taking quite small steps in getting the stuff out there still - we're doing pretty well considering we started from a plain sheet of paper on February 1st.
If you know of any that might be interested they can contact us on trade@ragleybikes.com
If you want a comfy bike get an FS.