excitable1
cleared the Landrover mid air
This never happened.
excitable1 - MemberI BRAKED in an instant panic and the bike locked up and I went OTB, <edit> NO ONE would do any different in that situation.
You can't learn from your mistakes until you admit them.
My friend fell off the first piece of northshore at sherwood pines as it was wet and slippy... landed on his head and broke his collar bone, his helmet was completely smashed yet his head was fine.
I know it's people own fredom of choice whether they do or not, but I can't see many reason for not wearing one, other than the misconception that its not cool to wear one.
I prefer not to wear a helmet. This Saturday a friend and I were out on the road bikes. Without going into too much detail ..
He had an over the bars experience at over 40mph.
Glancing over my shoulder, as his bars crossed, and he went head first onto the road .. doing the expected cartwheels two or three times before ending up in a heap, bleeding and groaning.
This kinda convinced me to start wearing my helmet.
The ambulance took him away - but if it was me who had came off its very probable the undertakers woulda been taking me away.
Yep. I `ll be wearing mine from now on. 😕
I've never suffered concussion when not wearing a helmet, only when wearing one. If you don't want to suffer concussion don't wear a helmet.
Haha Nicko I'm not signing up for that!!
And whoever questioned my Christian response, I'm not a Christian so I don't have to follow their code.
Bez, I'm sure you're a troll but if you want a control his elbow or his shoulder provided that and they're now both skinned. He has skin on his elbow just like he has skin on his head so there's the comparison you crave. People seem to make a big deal as to skull fractures but it's the brain cell damage that you should be worried about. They're, in fact most internal tissue, is very soft. And before you question me further I've touched plenty due to work so I'm not just spouting stuff I've read on the net.
I've had concussion more times than I can remember.
Fourbanger
This never happened.
LOL... ahhhh you were there, did you nick my bike computer too.
Serious though. It was a single track bridge and the Landrover was stopped on the brow of it. I left the bike in front of the Landrover and landed in the railings behind it. The passengers witness statement said I 'flew past her window like Superman' !
It would have been funny if I could remember it !!
"Bez, I'm sure you're a troll but if you want a control his elbow or his shoulder provided that and they're now both skinned. He has skin on his elbow just like he has skin on his head so there's the comparison you crave."
Huh? That's not a control at all.
And at best you're comparing skin abrasion, which is hardly critical stuff in most cases.
"It was a single track bridge and the Landrover was stopped on the brow of it."
So you're riding in a manner where you can't avoid a stationary vehicle without hospitalising yourself and it's "no-one's fault"?
😆
33mph (quite fast) downhill (where you can subtract a component of gravity from your braking force) on a bicycle (a vehicle not known for its control and effectiveness under braking) round a blind corner (where you have severely restricted ability to react) on a bridge (where you may be unweighted and thus less able to brake) on a singletrack road (where you have no space to avoid oncoming vehicles)?
You'd have been going slower if you'd not been wearing a helmet. You'd not have crashed. The helmet made the crash worse.
QED
My favourite "thank goodness I was wearing a helmet" story was the guy who was head-down in a timetrial and rode his bike into a stationary tractor.
He was badly hurt, but thank goodness he was wearing his helmet and everyone else should always wear one.
I'll look where I'm going, instead.
I really love the helmet threads, they just go to prove that obviously intelligent people are sometimes somewhat lacking in the common sense department... Some people are exhibiting an almost fundemtalist need to cling to their views.
For once and for all, we're going to strap Olympus and TJ to two identical bikes and push them into a variety of identical crashes. After each one we'll dissect them to see what effect there was from wearing/ not wearing a helmet.
^Absolutley ****ing hilarious. Have to clean beer off my keyboard now^
From another perspective re head injuries and any possible prevention - my girlfriend sustained a head injury nothing to do with biking - a severe concussion from being hit on the head.
I have never had such a bad year looking after her. Her memory / cognitive abilities and personality changed for the worse - thankfully she is on the mend now.
Most people / her workmates / family and friends had no idea initially what effect it had on her. She was a real mess - couldnt walk properly / concentrate or focus. She was unable to work / drive or care 100pc for herself for months. Her mental state and emotions were a mess. People generally have no idea what even a 'trivial blow' to the head can do to a person AND their loved ones who are left to look after them. Charities like Headway were a godsend. I spent too much time in hospital with her seeing other head injury victims. Not nice.
I would like to add that this experience has made me reconsider the way I ride and ski/snowboard - ie I now take less risk. She is back riding again - and she has vowed never to not wear a lid.
I would always wear a helmet as I have cracked a few biking and doing snowsports - Its hardly an inconvenience and great for deflecting branches in the woods...
A bit of a ramble but anything which helps protect your head is not a bad idea.
To those who have avoided a serius knock to the head whilst not wearing a helmet - you were lucky. Think about your loved ones looking after you if the worst happens and how it would make them feel if a helmet would have prevented it.
enjoy riding
paul
It is a control for skin abrasion, which is bad enough, at least I doubt you'd choose to have you skin abrased, let alone your head smacked on a road. Although discussing this with you feels like smacking my head against a road.
If you seriously think you could get an ethics committee to pass a scientific test where someone crashes twice, one with a helmet and one without then you are beyond help. It would be like getting someone to get shot in the eye with a paintball gun wearing goggles and then not wearing goggles. It just wouldnt happen, you'd never get funding for such a ludicrous experiment. So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.
You do agree that you should wear goggles when paintballing don't you....!?
I really love the helmet threads
I find they're really entertaining too. You think they've exhausted all the possible permutations of the argument, and then suddenly they manage to pull some random guff like "helmets are like brakes no they're not yes they are shut up no you shut up" from out of leftfield and it all kicks off again. It's marvellous. 🙂
*opens popcorn*
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To those who have avoided a serius knock to the head whilst not wearing a helmet - you were lucky.
nope - its the other way round. The odds of getting a head injury is really low.
snowpaul - I recently took a head blow. I was concussed for 5 days and haven't been able to tolerate the loud play of my children since - All the annoying noises of this world - drilling, car alarms, etc, seem to really annoy me really quickly. Its like I've got less tolerance for these things now.
So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.
OR you can do rigorous scientific analysis of past events to see what has happened
For once and for all, we're going to strap Olympus and TJ to two identical bikes and push them into a variety of identical crashes. After each one we'll dissect them to see what effect there was from wearing/ not wearing a helmet.^Absolutley ****ing hilarious. Have to clean beer off my keyboard now^
I was killing myself on the train at that too! Sadly I'm too educated to take part even with a helmet as I'm fully aware I'm not invincible!
Paul, sorry to hear about your ordeal, hope things get as close back to normal as soon as possible!
[i]you just have to apply common sense, intuition and [/i] choose to ignore the actual evidence that is out there.
Helmets in cycling are one of the greatest marketing triumphs of all time; there is no consistent, duplicatable, reliable, information regarding their effectiveness despite their widespread use, yet just about everyone now assumes that you must have a polysterene hat to ride in or you face certain death.
Super.
Anyway, do carry on with the anecdotes...
nope - its the other way round. The odds of getting a head injury is really low.
No one is disputing the odds of head injury is low, but when it does happen it's serious. Its your HEAD TJ, its where your brain is supposed to be. Even a small risk is increased in stature should it have such catastrophic consequences. There are loads of things that are low risk that are still treated with respect due to their consequences.
So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.OR you can do rigorous scientific analysis of past events to see what has happened
You quote me and then say "you can do rigorous scientific analysis of past events" which is what I said, past events are past accidents.
Crikey, my original post was that in my opinion from what I saw my mate's helmet did prevent him getting a head injury, so in this case I wouldn't say it was a marketing gimmic.
I wish you could delete threads that you'd created. I never expected so many people to so aggressively cling on to their misguided views. My whole point was I saw my mate's helmet do it's job, not if you don't wear one then I wish misery on you and your family and also that you don't enjoy christmas for the next 40 years. FFS.
not sure a helmet helps in this kind of situation -
but they all seem to wear them anyway, maybe its just to have something to strap the go-pro to
[i]I'm not trying to whip up another long pointless debate[/i]
Who was it who said this?
I've had concussion more times than I can remember.
/applause
(You can get various headband-type things to stick torches into...)
Olympus -
is not the same as making a rigourous scientific analysis.apply common sense, intuition
You are not "lucky" to avoid a head injury cycling - you are very very unlucky to sustain one. Its very rare.
Do you wear a helmet when drinking? Walking? playing football? Or far more likely to get you a head injury
A meteor might fall on your head
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
A decent summary of the various arguments and links to real data
http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688
"[i]If you seriously think you could get an ethics committee to pass a scientific test where someone crashes twice, one with a helmet and one without then you are beyond help.[/i]"
Of course not. (Though you could use instrumented dummies of course, or perhaps - less realistically - even cadavers.) Problem is that there are so many variables and a realistic impact is so massively complex and unrepeatable that it's not practicable anyway.
But the fact that you can't reasonably perform a control doesn't change the fact that without one, you are resorting to supposition.
"[i]So in fact the comparrison can not be made, you just have to apply common sense, intuition and past accidents where people have and haven't been wearing safety equipment.[/i]"
Indeed. So we agree. The problem is that common sense and intuition actually quite often turn out be wrong.
"[i]You do agree that you should wear goggles when paintballing don't you....!? [/i]"
Yes. But then where have I disagreed with the idea of wearing a helmet whilst cycling?
All I've argued against are (a) the assumption of what would have happened in any given incident had someone not been wearing a helmet, and (b) the idea that once you've had an incident, it gets used as evidence for relying on the safety equipment rather than as a stimulus to modify one's behaviour.
TJ if you're talking from a statistics point of view then yes it is rare, but as I said risk isn't just frequency its also linked to consequence.
I dont drink so no, and I've yet to get over 15 mph while walking or playing football so I doubt any head injury would be of any consequence.
And I'm not sure a helmet would protect you from a meteor strike.
You don't need to tell me about rigourous scientific analysis, I have enough experience in planning those.
I wish you could delete threads that you'd created. I never expected so many people to so aggressively cling on to their misguided views.
But you've been a member here for a good few months?
You are not "lucky" to avoid a head injury cycling - you are very very unlucky to sustain one. Its very rare. Do you wear a helmet when drinking? Walking? playing football? Or far more likely to get you a head injury
Evidence pls k thnx bye.
I dont drink so no, and I've yet to get over 15 mph while walking or playing football so I doubt any head injury would be of any consequence.
cycle helmets are designed to work at less than 12 mph. walking and playing football both have higher rates of head injury than cycling
common sense and intuition? Wrong again.
Bez I take your points. I certainly agree about the stimulous to change ones behaviour, I would be inclined to say the helmet prevented him from further injury (to what degree I couldnt say) but shouldn't be used as an reason to continue ones behaviour. Slowing down and changing ones attitude should be the result.
I'd like to see a motorists reaction as they see us pushing cadavers on bikes down hills! haha! but I'd be up for it, I'll let you source the cadavers though... 😉
A decent summary of the various arguments and links to real data
You are not "lucky" to avoid a head injury cycling - you are very very unlucky to sustain one. [b]Its very rare.[/b]
Rare? From your link
[img] 
[/img]
For RTAs involving cyclists, head injuries were the 2nd highest injury.
In addition, I'd say incidents involving cyclists amount to a disproportionate number of incidents, given that cyclists may account for the smallest number of road users amongst peds, cyclists, motorcyclists and car drivers although motorbike riders may challenge them for the bottom spot.
So based on that table I'd say you are in with a good chance of having an accident, and if you do, there's a good chance it'll be a head injury.
*pops to concession stand, does anybody fancy anything? I fancy a mahoosive bag of maltesers and a veritable bucket of diet coke...*
EDIT; I'll happily donate my body to helmet testing science should I pop my clogs any time soon...
...so long as they promise to post the video on YouTube. 😆
Again a break down of on and off road would be helpfull.
Forget the death bit, it bloody hurts whenever I bash my head on something and I'm pretty sure the helmet must take the edge off.
Oh dear boardingbob
Incidence across the population? Its hundreds of thousands to one that on any particular ride you will sustain a serious head injury. They are very rare.
Even the most optimistic slant on helmets protectiveness suggest compulsory helmet wearing would save 10 lives a year. very rare
Have a look at some of the data here
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4641
#
chakaping - MemberForget the death bit, it bloody hurts whenever I bash my head on something and I'm pretty sure the helmet must take the edge off.
Seems fair - very effective against minor injury. ( which is why I wear one at Glentress) Questionable effectiveness against major injury
There have been many studies on helmet wearing, many by groups with vested interests.
If I were to base my decision on whether or not to wear a helmet on a study, I think I'd use one by an organisation I thought was fairly neutral on the matter, like the BMA.
From here
http://www.bma.org.uk/health_promotion_ethics/transport/promotingsafecycling.jsp?page=1
"Conclusion
Best evidence supports the use of cycle helmets. They have been shown to reduce the risk of head injury and its severity should it occur. This does not apply to fatal crashes but in such instances the force of impact is considered to be so significant that most protection would fail. As has been illustrated by the case studies, the consequences of traumatic brain injury are significant not only to the individual involved, but to their families and to society as a whole. It is BMA members, and in particular accident and emergency staff who witness at first hand the devastating impacts cycling injuries can have."
I'd probably value the opinion of these people
Chair Board of Science Sir Kenneth Calman
Director of professional activities Professor Vivienne Nathanson
Project Leads
Nicky Jayesinghe, Head of Science
George Roycroft, Deputy Head of Science
Research and writing
Dr Andrew Curran, Consultant paediatric neurologist
Dr Heather Sage, Trainee, paediatric neurology
Thomas Ellinas, Research and Policy Executive
over some bloke on the internet 😉
