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The whole attitude to and treatment of personal EVs in the UK is a mess. Whilst this particular incident doesn't show the police in a great light and could certainly of been handled better from start to finish its hardly surprising. Firstly the ridiculously low max legal speed for pedal assist means while us MTBs love our expensive eBikes as they are good at going up hills they are useless for actually commuting in traffic - hence so many illegal mods. Then there is the whole 'grey' area of eScooters, eSkateboards etc before we get started on Suron's Whats so sad is that we have a bunch of cheap easy access vehicles here that could really make a difference to pollution and congestion but no appetite for infrastructure or regulation which just leads to the current unworkable situation. It doesn't help that the media is a **** in the UK either.
Firstly the ridiculously low max legal speed for pedal assist
A speed set above the average riding speed for non serious riders. British cycling are missing a trick currently since it seems like they could just hang around on some commuter routes and find some of these gods who find 15.5 slow without putting training time in. Just think what they would perform with the right application of asthma medication.
We already have sensible category for people who want to go faster but dont want to do the full licence eg the moped licence which just needs a cbt every couple of years.
Obviously this comes with restrictions on roadworthiness and also where you can ride but given the guidelines about max speeds on shared paths etc is that a bad thing for someone who thinks 15.5 is ridiculously low?
15.5 mph isn’t ridiculously low for a shared use path
Agree on the speed limit. I'm pretty fit and on my big heavy commuter bike 15 mph is a hard effort on the flat. Faster than that as the limit for assist on a heavy ebike is definatly becoming a different beast to a push bike. As with the previous poster, mopeds are already a thing if you want to go faster in traffic. Electric models are available.
Lets face it, the only real way to make it easy for please to track legality is that anything where a motor contributes to propulsion needs certification then registration with an easily identifiable tag. Possibly with periodic inapection to ensure continued compliance.
Whether it's the officers or the training or the process this needs a root cause analysis and some serious re-education. What I'm certain of is that this is their error and it's a pretty frightful and unnecessary one.
I'm not denying they are at error, but what I find a trifle tiresome is the smarmy intellectual superiority, looking down on people doing a shitty job in some of the posts.
It's just so frustrating - the scheme is genuinely brilliant, to take e-motorbikes off our roads and cycle paths, I fully endorse it. But this is just SO stupid - I dunno, maybe they were having a terrible day, whatever. But for WMP to then fight it when they were so clearly in the wrong - just heaps resentment upon resentment. Hands up, "we were wrong, here's a cheque, charges withdrawn".
It's such terrible PR.
I 'might' be changing my mind on the speed thing....might.
We have a 20mph limit in urban areas here in the Highlands. Is it observed - of course it's not. But I say 80% of road users are down to below 25mph a couple of years in. Which is a start I suppose. When I'm in pedestrian mode I think it's great - the streets definitely more pleasant. As a motorist I tend to put adaptive cruise control on at between 20 and 22 and let the traffic back up behind me. It's not really enforced in any meaningful way and the people still doing plenty are the all the people you'd expect (plus the oldies who seem to 'monopace' through all their driving).
I'm going out on a limb here, but IF cars/vans/lorries could be got down to near 20, I think you could make a case for ebikes commuting in the same spaces to go up to 20 too to match the traffic.
I'm not sure I'd want an ebike doing a legitimate 20 on a share use path mind (or an EMTB doing 20 on climbs) and I'm not convinced I trust the public to show a great deal of ability to moderate - we've not got a great record regardless of what we are doing.
15.5 mph isn’t ridiculously low for a shared use path / A speed set above the average riding speed for non serious riders./ I'm pretty fit and on my big heavy commuter bike 15 mph is a hard effort on the flat.
I'm in London, I daily commuted for years, I use the cycleways and I now ride most days on a Brompton/Lime Bike or Road bike depending on the trip.
IMO the 15.5mph/25km/h was well chosen. Yes, I'm fit and a regular cyclist and it's it's actually pretty close to the speed I maintain on the flat - I'm usually overtaking people riding Lime even on a heavily laden Brompton. Your average Joe who's a more casual rider is a few mph slower (12 gets talked about a lot as an average) but the differential isn't large enough to be a problem.
It can be a bit of an issue with undersized cycle infrastructure - there are guidelines for cycleway lane widths but nearly everything is undersized when built. A 2m one way lane (2.4m if upright kerbs) on both sides means it's easy to overtake a slower cyclist. If it's 1.5 with kerbs that becomes uncomfortable for both. If one of the vehicles is a cargo bike or a box trike then it's really tight.
20mph would be too fast
It's a £6000 bike, £300 fine and 6 points on their licence; they are now having to go to court to contest this, but they'll never get the bike back regardless of the outcome. The shop that hired the bike is 6k down and has done absolutely nothing wrong; 'sucks' is putting it mildly!
The erroneous process that got them into this mess could be applied to anyone with a legal bike; that's more than a minor blip.
Not sure if this has been covered but as the Ebike in question was seized as an unlicensed/uninsured/untaxed motorbike there is no means to recover it, even if it hadn’t been crushed.
There’s a bit of a gap in the law here.
Not sure if this has been covered but as the Ebike in question was seized as an unlicensed/uninsured/untaxed motorbike there is no means to recover it, even if it hadn’t been crushed.
There’s a bit of a gap in the law here.
I'm not following the thinking - they seized the wrong thing so gaps in the law don't need to apply. By that reasoning they could seize absolutely anything and say 'oh well, there's a gap in the law, we can't give your ebike/car/horse/house/guide-dog back, we thought it was an uninsured electric motorbike.'
I'm not following the thinking
IANAL and couldn’t quite follow it myself but if they seize an actual motorbike you need to provide evidence of tax/registration/insurance/license to get it back.
The issue as I’d understood it is if they’ve seized something that isn’t a motorbike but the police claim it is, then it’s a bit difficult to provide things that a Tern HSD doesn’t need and you can’t get like registration.
What’s needed is a proper annual test for electric bikes and trikes so that owners can prove they are legal.
Then the police could get on and scrap just the illegal bikes.
I think that’s a lot of what e-bike positive is about, but it’s a self certification scheme so who knows what the thin blue line will think.
https://road.cc/ebiketips/news/police-seize-and-destroy-delivery-cyclists-legal-e-bike
More detail on road.cc including the efforts made by the bike's owner and the lack of engagement in trying to resolve the issue.
What’s needed is a proper annual test for electric bikes and trikes so that owners can prove they are legal.
Then the police could get on and scrap just the illegal bikes.
Yeah, **** that.
Then your bike can be crushed at the whim of a PC.
**** that
Or the law amended so the police don't have free reign to destroy anything in the belief that it's an uninsured electric motorbike without compensation or explanation.
I'm not against an annual test - I know mine's legal - but that's an expensive and time-consuming way to stop the police squishing Terns.
Charges dropped and bike to be replaced
They don't even keep on top of all the untaxed un-mot'd cars, cloned numberplates and uninsured drivers so I wouldn't hold out much hope of them checking ebikes properly
They'll just continue as they are, occasional high profile crackdowns shown on social media to make it look like the law is enforced more than it really is.
Meanwhile, more restrictions for ebikes on trains, blocks of flats, workplace bike storage, because people can't tell whats a shoddy lashup about to catch fire, and whats genuine.
Why shouldnt they crush illegally modified bikes? They are not e bikes anymore but ilkegally modified and ridden motorcycles
Why shouldnt they crush illegally modified bikes?
Who's saying they shouldn't?
Why shouldnt they crush illegally modified bikes? They are not e bikes anymore but ilkegally modified and ridden motorcycles
Exactly this, it should be really simple: have a proper test for compliant e-bikes; if it's an illegal motorbike, seize it and hit the rider with no insurance, no tax, unregistered, no helmet, etc.
It hinges on having a proper test though. I'd imagine some sort of dyno that measures the power at the wheel as the bike is ridden; it should be obvious when the motor assist cuts out.
The other thing that would help is to use the correct terminology. It's an unregistered motorbike, not an illegal e-bike; the fact it's electric is irrelevant.
The other thing that would help is to use the correct terminology. It's an unregistered motorbike, not an illegal e-bike; the fact it's electric is irrelevant.
+1.
The media really need taking to task on this. BBC got rightly panned for their ridiculous and sensationalist episode of Panorama where they repeatedly used the term "e-bike" incorrectly when talking about electric motorbikes, Surrons etc.
There have been many cases:
https://road.cc/content/news/stop-calling-them-e-bikes-bbc-edits-inaccurate-coverage-315689
The newspapers are no better, often referring to pedestrians injured by illegal motorbikes as "hit by an e-bike" or balaclava-clad scrotes as "e-bikers". The whole term has become mired in misinformation and misunderstanding.
Proper training for Police and Fire services and some acceptable language to use in describing incidents would also help (much the same as how "accident" has largely been replaced by "collision" in road traffic terminology). Fire services because when they get called to yet another lithium fire caused by some dodgy battery and motor kit lashed to an Apollo with zip ties and used with a mismatched charger, they don't refer to it as "e-bike", they call it out for what it is.
Charges dropped and bike to be replaced
Good work from Cycling UK on that one. It's amazing how with a little bit of publicity and pressure, suddenly the police can respond and admit their errors.
It hinges on having a proper test though. I'd imagine some sort of dyno that measures the power at the wheel as the bike is ridden; it should be obvious when the motor assist cuts out.
I think the Dutch police have exactly that, that goes in the back of a van.
It of course doesn’t make the job for the Police any easier when the only difference been between an a legal e-bike and an illegal motor bike is in the software. In some cases with nothing to stop the user making the swap. I think some attempt to make that a dealer mod only would help. Plus an agreed system for showing clearly which legislative region it’s been set up.
I think the Dutch police have exactly that, that goes in the back of a van.
Still not sure how a dyno is definitive unless you are also measuring the input at the cranks too. Otherwise it's just heavily reliant on when the rider/policeman 'feels' the motor cutting out.
Podge, I’m not sure I agree with all of your reply.
Yes, we ‘trust’ car drivers to drive vehicles that can exceed speed limits.
That comes with the additional responsibilities of:
- Training and mandatory user licensing.
- Insurance and taxation on vehicle use.
- Mandatory vehicle testing three years post-first registration.
- Vehicle registration.
I don’t know about you, but when riding on the road, I have had the following comments made:
- You don’t have insurance. Wrong.
- You don’t have a driving licence. Yep again, wrong.
- You’re jealous of cars. Once again wrong - as I have had and do have one.
Most peoples interactions with e-bikes seems to be based by e-bikes they see:
- Not being pedalled - rather throttle controlled.
- Being ridden at speed - again without being pedalled.
- Being ridden without consideration or due care and attention.
Do I think a lot of the wider public understand the difference between e-bikes and e-motorcycles. Nope.
It's very obvious when you're riding - I would imagine it would be even more obvious when hand-cranking it, so to speak.
