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He made the mistake of not wearing a balaclava while riding the bike on its rear wheel through a pedestrianised area - the police wouldn't have touched him.
That is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone welcomes the police enforcing the e-bike rules, but they really do need proper training in how to carry out this enforcement.
The thing that I find really nuts is not that a couple of PCSO's got it wrong on the street, but that the bike was then destroyed without any sort of secondary test or meaningful appeals process.
This is an interesting development for me, as someone who uses trains to get around with my (non-e)bike.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgmdmkkd4xro
A couple of years ago, every time I got on a train I was seeing some horrific deathtrap lash-up, but that seems to have stopped. Now it's more often a pair of monstrously heavy legal e-bikes that the retired owners can barely lift into the train carriage. They'll be affected by this legislation.
Surely even someone "not trained" to identify illegal ebikes could understand that spinning the cranks with wheel off the ground, and the motor switched off, is not a test of the max speed of an ebike.
The excuses given afterwards (he was stopped for no insurance) are even worse!
I don't know who has been whispering in people's ears but I'm seeing more and more of this "folding ebikes only" stuff. I could put any old after market kit on an old Shopper and it'd be nowhere near as safe as a fully integrated non-folding bike.
The Merseyrail ban (and others that will probably follow) are a manifestation of this issue - rail staff can't be expected to have an in-depth understanding of what makes an 'e-bike' illegal or not - so ban 'em all! I'm expecting to have to prove my frame bag isn't full of batteries at some point.
Given that children are being bought E motorcycles, it's not a great situation. while out for a walk on Christmas day kids were out ridding their Surons, with their parents in attendance. On Sunday we nearly got taken out while cycling through the park with by a couple of toddlers on tiny E motorcycles which were way to fast for their skill level.
There is little hope that this is going to get sorted out is there.
I don't think the Mersey rail ban is about whether they're legal, it's probably about the risk of a shonky conversion setting itself on fire on a packed train.
Also what's with the double standards? Every single car on the road today can exceed the speed limit, how come we trust people with those but not with bikes that can exceed it?
Obviously there's the training, licencing and insurance etc but that's not really why these bikes are demonised is it?
road.cc ran a pretty in-depth article about it:
https://road.cc/ebiketips/news/police-seize-and-destroy-delivery-cyclists-legal-e-bike
Most authorities are completely clueless when it comes to bikes (in general). It's how you end up with shite infrastructure that bounces a cyclist up and down 15 pavements before ending at a junction, how a bit of painted line down the gutter is held up as "cycle lane", how a rickety stand bolted to a wall 50m away from the supermarket entrance is publicised as "free cycle parking" and it's how you end up with police stopping you for pavement cycling in spite of their being a council-installed "cycle lane" that put you there in the first place.
It's actually quite distressing to think that a nice Tern like that should just be crushed; no appeals, no thought or notification or attempt to properly identify it.
So given that I have a full motorcycle licence, presumably I could de-restrict my lumbering 2017 Levo, seek out insurance for it and then legally ride it on the road - at least until my local police force crushed it in error. Does that insurance even exist? Would I legally need to wear a type-approved motorcycle helmet? Could I buy a Tern GSD and hot-rod the thing into a 70mph plus cargo missile?
ps: I've ridden a Tern GSD, I took one over Long Hill to dump a dead dehumidifier at the local-ish tip, and in honesty, at much over 30mph it's mildly terrifying.
Edit: google AI says I'd need type approval for my shite modified Levo, then a number plate etc and appropriate insurance which, in real life, is near impossible to do. Another shimmering dream bites the bureaucratic dust 🙁
Does that insurance even exist?
You can insure pretty much anything, though finding that cover won't be easy or cheap.
You can insure pretty much anything, though finding that cover won't be easy or cheap.
Google AI suggests the main obstacle is registering the modded e-mtb, getting type approval etc. If it's right, modding a genuine e-bike and then being able to ride it legally on the street, even if you genuinely wanted to register it, insure it etc, would be very difficult, if not impossible.
Thankfully Scotrail are pretty switched on. I take my ebike to the trails most weekends via the train. I does look like a MTB though, as opposed to some DIY contraption or eMoto... and of course I take my bally off before I enter the station 😆
So let me get this straight. If my road bike had a speed sensor on the back wheel and I lifted it and pedalled to over 25kmph or whatever it is it could be seized and crushed as an illegal ebikes?
We need to up the entry requirements to be in the police to ensure they all have a functioning frontal cortex
So let me get this straight. If my road bike had a speed sensor on the back wheel and I lifted it and pedalled to over 25kmph or whatever it is it could be seized and crushed as an illegal ebikes?
If its an ebike then yes.
The infamous no load speed test. Flawed, acknowledged its flawed, no change to procedure.
So let me get this straight. If my road bike had a speed sensor on the back wheel and I lifted it and pedalled to over 25kmph or whatever it is it could be seized and crushed as an illegal ebikes?
We know that motor assistance should cut out at 15.5mph, police seem to have interpreted this that the bike should not be able to go faster than 15.5mph and the motor should physically prevent this from being possible. So yes, by that logic, pretty much every bike on the road will fail their test.
You'd need a Sur-Ron Lite Bee L1E (Road Legal) so you could get tax, insurance etc
But then you wouldn't be allowed to ride it on bridleways....
I don't think the Mersey rail ban is about whether they're legal, it's probably about the risk of a shonky conversion setting itself on fire on a packed train.
Yes, of course, but the staff aren't equipped to make that judgement (or get into a massive argument about it) hence the blanket ban.
"folding ebikes only" stuff. I could put any old after market kit on an old Shopper and it'd be nowhere near as safe as a fully integrated non-folding bike.
Hence: 'A ban on non-folding or modified e-bikes will be introduced on the Merseyrail network after a safety review.'
by a couple of toddlers on tiny E motorcycles which were way to fast for their skill level.
2 kids regularly flying around the streets at about 30mph where I live on those Revibike things, I'd guess 6 or 7 at the most, no helmets (or balaclavas) and quite happy to stick 2 fingers up at anyone who dares tell them they should stay off the roads, accident waiting to happen and no doubt it will be someone else's fault if and when they end up hurt, or worse
There's always a couple of kids on Revi's when we walk the dogs at Birches Valley, Cannock.
Also parents need to be aware of the law for the age of using ebikes - we had a guy asking if his 8 year old could bring their ebike to our coaching sessions......
by a couple of toddlers on tiny E motorcycles which were way to fast for their skill level.
2 kids regularly flying around the streets at about 30mph where I live on those Revibike things, I'd guess 6 or 7 at the most, no helmets (or balaclavas) and quite happy to stick 2 fingers up at anyone who dares tell them they should stay off the roads, accident waiting to happen and no doubt it will be someone else's fault if and when they end up hurt, or worse
Balloon release, smile lit up every room, in heaven wiv the angles and Lady Di etc.
Cops are human, they make mistakes. They made a mistake here. It sucks for the bike owner but it's just a minor blip in the grand scheme of things.
Cops are human, they make mistakes. They made a mistake here.
Well, they made a series of mistakes, none of which they've actually admitted to or learnt from and it resulted in the needless destruction of a perfectly legal taxpayer-funded community e-bike.
none of which they've actually admitted to or learnt from
This. At an absolute minimum they should admit their mistake, compensate the owner, quash the penalty notice, apologise and set in place proper guidance to prevent this happening again. As far as I can see from the article and from the recent email I've just received from Cycling UK, they have done none of this.
Cops are human, they make mistakes. They made a mistake here. It sucks for the bike owner but it's just a minor blip in the grand scheme of things.
Don't really agree. It's not really a mistake. A mistake is when someone makes a temporary error on something that they would normally be expected to get right these two halfwits seem just to be too stupid to understand basic concepts. It's not a mistake, it's just outside their cognitive abilities to understand it. Should be relieved of their duties imho
It sucks for the bike owner but it's just a minor blip in the grand scheme of things.
The guy is having to go to court to get a wrong righted and they appear to be aware that process has started. Then the BBC requested the footage from the chest cam. Then you are being asked to make a statement to the media. At this point, if you had access to the family brain cell that week a light bulb should probably be going on that we might have ****ed up!
But no, they kept on digging!
Yes mistakes happen - but it's the way you handle it that counts. And they appeared to have ****ed that up too.
It sucks for the bike owner but it's just a minor blip in the grand scheme of things.
It's a £6000 bike, £300 fine and 6 points on their licence; they are now having to go to court to contest this, but they'll never get the bike back regardless of the outcome. The shop that hired the bike is 6k down and has done absolutely nothing wrong; 'sucks' is putting it mildly!
The erroneous process that got them into this mess could be applied to anyone with a legal bike; that's more than a minor blip.
but it's just a minor blip in the grand scheme of things.
TBF to hols2, in the scheme of police ****ups where gross miscarriages are done and people die, this is indeed minor.
But just because they usually **** up even worse doesn't mean this is ok.
but they'll never get the bike back regardless of the outcome
It will be an outrage if they don't get compensated for the full cost of the bike, loss of earnings and more.
Surely the Police can't confiscate your legal property, destroy it, and say 'sorry, we made a mistake'
Surely the Police can't confiscate your legal property, destroy it, and say 'sorry, we made a mistake'
They can put an innocent person in jail and argue for years whether they deserve any compensation so I don't expect they'll cough up promptly in this case................
It's not a mistake, it's just outside their cognitive abilities to understand it. Should be relieved of their duties imho
Yes they should definitely be sacked, it's ridiculous that police who don't fully understand ebikes are allowed to patrol the streets.
It's unfortunate that the bike industry prepared guidance for police on how to spot an illegal ebike doesn't include anything about how to test speeds (or how not too) and even says if it's unclear if the motor limits the speed to the legal level then to treat it as illegal. But thicko 5-0 it is.
Coppers involved would have their mind blown looking at gear/cadence/speed calculators such as...
https://sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
Absolute cretins in the case of illegal ebike definitions!
Stuff like this is why so many average law abiding folk have to be wary of the cops, supposedly our protectors. Useless tossers.
There were Duckenfield types in the force 30 years ago, there are no doubt plenty in it today.
but they'll never get the bike back regardless of the outcome
It will be an outrage if they don't get compensated for the full cost of the bike, loss of earnings and more.
Surely the Police can't confiscate your legal property, destroy it, and say 'sorry, we made a mistake'
Different force and crime, I know, but John Worboys raped maybe over a hundred women between 2000 and 2008, many of his victims weren't believed ("a black cab driver would never do that") or belittled. Two sued the Met for their treatment - 5 years after Worboys was convicted, they were awarded compensation in 2014 and the Met fought it for another three years, all the way to the Supreme Court (thanks for allowing that appeal, Theresa May). They can be absolute bastards when it comes to.paying out for clear wrongs.
In some ways, I wonder if there's a parallel with the NHS in that the response is to automatically fight any claims to.the bitter end, even where it would be cheaper by far and better for the victims to concede.
I wonder if they are being dicks about it and not just admitting they were wrong because if they admit their 'test' was crap then every owner of a properly illegal e-motorbike can make the same claim and they'd not have much of a leg to stand on- their test was too poor to be used as proof in those cases too. If the guy has to go to court and prove what it was they impounded and destroyed it might reduce the number of others who are less innocent trying their luck.
Whilst it's blindingly obvious the 'test' they did was a total crock(and sorry you'd have to be complete melt with zero access to even 30 seconds on Google to work that out even if you have never heard of an e bike before and the instructions from your superior was similarly inept), what a genuine definitive test would be is slightly harder to achieve......short of test riding it with power meter pedals on maybe. "I rode It and It feels like it's helping me up to 30mph" doesn't really cut it.
In some ways, I wonder if there's a parallel with the NHS in that the response is to automatically fight any claims to.the bitter end, even where it would be cheaper by far and better for the victims to concede.
Yup, I've held the opinion for quite sometime there needs to be a third party that must be consulted to be able to defend, with public money a claim by a member of said public.
Likewise with payoffs. Also NDA's are removed from being a tool the public sector uses to hide wrongdoing.
It takes the absolute piss.
In some ways, I wonder if there's a parallel with the NHS in that the response is to automatically fight any claims to.the bitter end, even where it would be cheaper by far and better for the victims to concede.
Nobody admits liability these days do they? Fight it as much as possible then pay up. Ministry of Defence paid out about £15m in compensation to members of the public in the last couple of months and it probably doesn't even register with most people. There's a book out in the last few weeks about the stakeknife/ Nelson inquiries, the level of avoiding scrutiny there is off the scale; burglaries, fires etc.
It's unfortunate that the bike industry prepared guidance for police on how to spot an illegal ebike doesn't include anything about how to test speeds (or how not too) and even says if it's unclear if the motor limits the speed to the legal level then to treat it as illegal. But thicko 5-0 it is.
With respect it is not the job of the producers of legal e-bikes to come up with law enforcement devices or methods designed to catch the illegally modified ones and just plain illegally manufactured ones. They build legal vehicles for sale (like a car manufacturer).
If you're going to enforce the law there is no justification for not fully understanding that law nor having a proper test that would stand even the most basic evidential scrutiny.
The law is clear - no motor assistance over 25kph.
It is not: the bike cannot go faster than 25kph.
Whether it's the officers or the training or the process this needs a root cause analysis and some serious re-education. What I'm certain of is that this is their error and it's a pretty frightful and unnecessary one.
The consequences of this type of misunderstanding and poor process are unlawful destruction of property and criminal convictions for innocent members of the public that could have years long financial and quality of life consequences.
In such circumstances half baked and inaccurate tests and a lack of proper understanding of the law are not acceptable.
Whether it's the officers or the training or the process this needs a root cause analysis and some serious re-education. What I'm certain of is that this is their error and it's a pretty frightful and unnecessary one.
I'm not denying they are at error, but what I find a trifle tiresome is the smarmy intellectual superiority, looking down on people doing a shitty job in some of the posts (these two halfwits seem just to be too stupid to understand basic concepts. It's not a mistake, it's just outside their cognitive abilities to understand it, Should be relieved of their duties imho...you'd have to be complete melt with zero access to even 30 seconds...., We need to up the entry requirements to be in the police to ensure they all have a functioning frontal cortex).
And if you think think this incident requires serious reeducation and is frightful you are living a very sheltered life.
One of the articles above showed a portable dyno that Notts police use, that would be the obvious route to go.
but what I find a trifle tiresome is the smarmy intellectual superiority, looking down on people doing a shitty job in some of the posts
Edited to say: fair enough. I can see where you're coming from. If I'm going to call the police out for being a bit dim then quite clearly you have the right to call me out for being a condescending prick.
I can't really argue with that 🙂
