[Closed] Supporting LBS - How much more to pay over and above internet prices?

Does this include fitting?

Have you gone back to them and said "I'd really like to spend the money with you, but you're £100 more expensive, can you come down at all?".

if that's fitted, sounds about right.

£100 more for something costing a few hundred quid is a lot of money and I must admit, I love using my LBS because they give me a discount, I can have a wander, spend even more on stuff thats on offer, have a chat etc etc but you've got to draw the line somewhere. It seems to be an issue with Shimano stuff especially that theres a lot of unboxed stuff floating around from mainland Europe/grey imports.

It would have been £450 to include fitting.

Njee20 that's what I'll do. I'm just trying to figure out what's reasonable.

 I'm just trying to figure out what's reasonable.

Only you can answer that. If you have a good lbs, then use it or lose it. The Internet might be cheaper but it ain't great at sorting out problems.

The internet is the best resource there has ever been for solving problems.
I rebuilt my car engine after a Cam belt failure this year purely by asking the internet. I had never even removed a wheel before I started.

Will usually go to 10% above The Internet Price

Worth it though if only for the fettling advice

Rocketman - you would pay 10% over internet prices or you would expect them to accept 10% over internet prices?

Shimano kit online is often cheaper than an LBS can get it for (i.e., less than trade price from the distributor). Have a look at the RRP for the kit so you can see how good the deal they have offered is.

Hundred quid buys a lot of tools

We tend to agree on what The Internet Price is which eliminates any OEM deals or we-havent-actually-got-any-but-we-could-order-it-for-you offers

if the lbs can't get anywhere near it then they're happy to say so and we both move on. Otherwise there's a potential sale and we take it from there

My LBS is fairly pragmatic about it, they know I know what to buy and can fit stuff my self so would say buy it online, someone else without either the skill or inclination gets to pay for their knowledge and time.

If you know what you want, know where to buy it and know how to fit it, just buy it as cheaply as you can.

I agree with DBW

Im fed up of being fobbed off and given timescales that never work out by lbs', recommended unsuitable products and waiting patiently while staff finish their chats with colleagues and pally customers. The Internet is cheaper, more competitive and efficient, more professional and saves so much time. Sorry lbs, you're dumped.

For me it would entirely depend on the situation- How much money do I currently have in the bank, what else do I need money for this month, how likely is the part to go wrong, can I fit and fix the part myself etc.
If it was me buying that groupset, I'd buy it online.

OP if its Hollowtech II is shamefully easy to remove and fit. Most of the modern kit is plug n play- its childs play literally. I remember once a LBS chap was complaining that he could never get a front mech set up quite right so I had a go- minutes it took me, front and rear. It aint car mechanics and even that- with tuition we could all do. We are bloody smart enough. Getting involved in your bikes makes you appreciate them more. Its a more involved-hobby than drop off/pick up post-new bit fitted.

Ok so say I buy the groupset online which I must admit I'm more inclined to do, I'm left with the issue of removing the campag crank arms. I'm not going to buy the tools because they're extortionate and I'm not going to do a bodged removal because I need to sell the cranks and don't want to damage them. Here I do need the local bile shop but they're going to think I'm a total **** for buying elsewhere and getting them to just do that bit. How much should I expect to pay for that? <£30? It's not difficult but I appreciate there is the 10 minutes to do it and the outlay on their tools to recover plus overheads etc.

How much should I expect to pay for that?

packet of biscuits should cover it...

Pay Evans Cycles to remove = £11.50.

Go home fit yours.

Sorry I don't 'support' a business that is there to make money/make a profit when I'm taxed to death. Harsh but I give charity to those that actually need it. Flame me 😀

[quote=hora ] I don't 'support' a business that is there to make money/make a profit Err......

I don't know what I should expect to pay for the removal of the cranks, surely not £100?

Hora I've no issues with fitting/removing everything on the bike although I'm pretty bad for forgetting to maintain things along the way. It's the outlay for campag specific tools that has put me off this single task. It'd cost me about over £80 just for the tools to remove the cranks and then I'd never use them again as I wouldn't go back to campag again.

I shop at/with..not 'support'.

Echo the above that online prices are close to / better than Madison's best trade prices to your LBS.

But [i]Madison's[/i] landed cost when buying from Shimano... that's pretty shocking 😉

It'd cost me about over £80 just for the tools to remove the cranks and then I'd never use them again as I wouldn't go back to campag again.

[quote="jameso"]removing some campag cranks is near-impossible w/o a specialist tool that isn't cheap.
I have removed my Power-Torque crank a few tiems using a pulley remover, a g-clamp and two ring spanners. A little tricky, not ideal, but there's no way I was going to buy a very expensive tool just for that !

I also have no intention of ever buying Campag stuff if they keep doing stupid things like this.

Shimano stuff in an LBS sometimes is outrageous (£70 for an XT cassette! 😯 ). They mostly seem to have cheap deals with SRAM, which suits me as I'm SRAM mainly (I only go with the XT because one of my hubs that has "compatibility issues" with SRAM).

Really depends how much more the shop price is and how much I like the shop. I do like to support good ones, but there are limits.

Often if I buy in an LBS at a bit of a premium it's because I'm desperate. Sometimes I'll buy something on impulse though depending on price and push for a price match or at least something near to a sensible price. Clothing, knee pads, gloves etc I might consider from a shop as can try them on.

The best deal with an LBS for me is bikes themselves. In particular ex-demo, second hand or discounted old models. Can get a good deal, and even if it's technically second hand it will also be serviced & warrantied and sorting things out is a trip to the shop for a chat. If you're paying a lot you may be able to get sweeteners on the deal, upgrading components or chuck in extra cheap or free for example.

Don't haggle just buy bits like that online and get the LBS to fit it, maybe ask for a post winter service , even if its something you could do yourself, workshop is where the profit is at at.

why would they think you an idiot for saving £100? Just go in, explain that it was a bit too much but you'er willing to pay for the Campag cranks to be removed. And hope they don't charge you £100.

I'm with Hora on this one, it's my money, not someone who want's to run a bike shops, I'll buy it from the cheapest place and fit it myself.

LBS's seem to be a bit of a cult. I went back to sailing last year after a geographicaly enforced 10 year break and a broken arm enforced break from cycling. Frankly I was amazed that I could go into a Chandelry and buy bits at near internet prices, have access to their tools, bits from the spares bin, a hand with heavy jobs and occasionaly actual freebies, and never have to cross the owners palm with a packet of hobnobs or spend years buying parts exclusively from him to reach that point. Last week I turned up with the boat on the trailer the day before a race, went in for a bit, fitted it, realised I neeed a few more bits, borrowed their drill, a few ft of rope from the spares bin, etc etc etc. Can you imagine an LBS being that accomodating!

LBS you're paying for someones laminate floor and well lit showroom.

If a spit'n'sawdust LBS opened up and sold brake pads for superstar prices I'd shop there all the time. But all those overheads are useless to me, I want to enjoy riding my bike, 'shopping' is a purely functional activity to facilitate that!

We tried starting up a (motorcycle) old school (tea, coffee, biscuits...) LBS a few years ago and it didn't work. I got f-ed off with people mooching in asking for prices on stuff then coming back a week or so later to say that they'd found it online for such-and-such a price and could I match it. I had no problem with fitting parts they'd sourced themselves but couldn't fit due to lack of tools or whatever. Our time was where we made the 'extra' that made it worth staying open. [i]Generally[/i], bricks and mortar shops can't match t'interweb prices or if they try to they sharp go under. I made no apologies for not being prepared to not be able to put food on the table (seriously, it was that close to the bone sometimes) to people who just didn't get it.

If you like that it's an [u][b]L[/b][/u]BS (the main thing there being the 'L' bit) and would like them to be able to stay 'L', then just ask if they'd be ok to remove the crank and pay for the work they do. There's no need to tell them you've bought the stuff elsewhere.

Exactly, no problem just being a customer and saying you want x-y-z job done, no excuses or chatter on buying parts required.

Buy off t'net, fit yourself, put 50 quid in the LBS letter box to make you feel better. You're 50 quid up and have resolved your moral dilemma.

I another who doesn't like the term 'support' that's what football fans do when they're buying £70 nylon t-shirt to look like the players who despise them, oh and pay their stupid wages.

I buy a lot more from them than I did a few years ago, it's a bit like my line of work - I recognise the value in their expertise - they've talked me out of some expensive mistakes and into buying decent robust long lasting kit, the work they do it perfect - I can do most things bar wheel building but they're neater than me and don't need a second go of it like I do sometimes.

It would be a shame if the LBS as we know it ceased to exist - they always seem to be expanding in Cardiff so perhaps it's not a universal thing - they have changed though - 10 years ago you could walk in with something broken and walk out with a new pedal, headset or bars etc but now they stock almost none of that - no market for it, it seems not walk-in trade anyway - anything like that has to be ordered in for a repair job - hundreds of spares and no parts it seems - same goes for clothing and tyres - takes up too much floor space and everyone buys online - its almost all complete bikes now, cleaning stuff and Halfords esq bolt on crap.

I like my lbs. They have stuff I want in stock and if I ask a question the answers are usually bullshit free. They tend to only stock stuff that I would want as well. This makes life easier as if you have to find something on the net, convince yourself it is right, post a question here to be sure and then find it in stock it can readily eat an hour or two. I'm happy to pay 20% for the privilege of good advice and stock

Blocks, chains, rings and most consumables are online though as I always use the same stuff.

I'd like to think Leffeboy (as ever) has it.

For most of us enthusiasts who can spanner, it's CRC etc & online advice for 90% of purchases. LBS is there if you need something urgently or are going outside your comfort zone.

I think most LBS accept this and try a bit to accommodate us, but there's no point in doing so if we don't make a profit. Our customer base is folk who are too busy/not into cycling enough to get savvy online with pricing/learn to do stuff themselves.

Just don't showroom!

Ok for a start 105 RRP is just over £500 so you got 20% off already, better than the "standard" shop/local club discount.

ALSO IS THE CHEAPER GROUPSET THE SPEC YOU WANT FOR THAT PRICE?
crank length
Chain ring sizes
Front mech type (band/direct etc)
Cassette ratio
mech cage length
colour

As most "groupsets" on line are "this is the spec" if you like to change anything it is extra £5 etc

Wheres if the LBS gets it from the office shimano distributor, they can choose you spec (normally at no extra cost) have the back up if thing go wrong, prob happy to help give advice on spec and set if you fitting yourself.

But again it's your money, time, know how etc

Getting involved in your bikes makes you appreciate them more. Its a more involved-hobby than drop off/pick up post-new bit fitted

Says the man who is to scared to SHORTEN his brake hoses

He's right though.

Also to my mind this isn't quite the zero sum game it appears. I almost never use an LBS nowadays, but I'm pretty sure I spend more on bikes, and I certainly have had more bikes. More money is going into "the industry", a fair chunk of that to bike companies, and the market as a whole gets bigger and some of that comes back around to the LBSs.

CTBM just did a wheel build for me. He's not L but he is certainly (I'm sure he'll agree) 'BS'. 😉

LBS just need to be canny and they can compete. My LBS has a club with £5 per year membership, for that you get 12% of parts accessories and clothing. They don't keep massive stock, but can order anything, and you still get the discount.

If you look at crc wiggle etc, most of the stuff that is normal size, current model, and in stock is only 10% off. I ordered an endura mtr emergency shell for £79, much cheaper than online.

Unfortunately the discount doesn't apply to bikes, so my next one will be from canyon.

I thought some more about the title of this thread "Supporting LBS - How much more to pay over and above internet prices?"

The answer is nothing because the question is pretty close to "should I treat my LBS like a charity".

No intelligent business owner wants that because it's not sustainable. They want to thrive by creating value for their customers, and if they're not doing that they need to know quickly so they can adapt, rather than have the spreadsheets clogged with false data.

So the answer is it's in the LBS's interest for you to spend your money in whatever way works best for you. Use the LBS if they are providing a service you want at a price that is good value for you. If they're not, don't.

If you were in their position, that's what you'd want too

I always think its a subliminal (unintentional) troll when the word 'support' is used. Its misleading to use this word in this context. You shop at. Its a business. Not a charity.

Definition of the word support:

support
s??p??t/Submit
verb
1.
bear all or part of the weight of; hold up.
"the dome was supported by a hundred white columns"
synonyms: hold up, bear, carry, prop up, keep up, bolster up, brace, shore up, underpin, buttress, reinforce
"the roof was supported by massive stone pillars"
2.
give assistance to, especially financially.
"the government gives £2,500 million a year to support the voluntary sector"
synonyms: help, aid, assist; More
antonyms: oppose
provide with a home and the necessities of life.
"my main concern was to support my family"
synonyms: provide for, provide sustenance for, maintain, sustain, keep, take care of, look after
"he was struggling to support his family"
give approval, comfort, or encouragement to.
"the proposal was supported by many delegates"
synonyms: give moral support to, give strength to, be a source of strength to, comfort, bring comfort to, sustain, encourage, buoy up, hearten, fortify, console, solace, give sympathy to, reassure, succour, soothe; More
be actively interested in and concerned for the success of (a particular sports team).
"fans should always support their team fully, no matter what"
(of an actor or role) of secondary importance to the leading roles in a play or film.
adjective: supporting
"the production's greatest successes are in the main supporting roles"
(of a pop or rock group or performer) function as a secondary act to (another) at a concert.
3.
suggest the truth of; corroborate.
"the studies support our findings"
synonyms: substantiate, back up, give force to, give weight to, bear out, corroborate, confirm, attest to, verify, prove, validate, authenticate, endorse, ratify, document
"there seems to be evidence to support both of these arguments"
antonyms: contradict, undermine
4.
produce enough food and water for; be capable of sustaining.
"the land had lost its capacity to support life"
5.
endure; tolerate.
"at work during the day I could support the grief"
synonyms: endure, bear, put up with, tolerate, stand, abide, suffer, stomach, brook, sustain, shoulder, weather
"at work during the day I could support the grief"
6.
(of a computer or operating system) allow the use or operation of (a program, language, or device).
"the new versions do not support the graphical user interface standard"
noun
noun: support; plural noun: supports
1.
a thing that bears the weight of something or keeps it upright.
"the best support for a camera is a tripod"
synonyms: pillar, post, prop, underprop, underpinning, base, substructure, foundation; More
the action of supporting something or someone or the state of being supported.
"she clutched the sideboard for support"
2.
material assistance.
"the bank provided unstinting financial support"
synonyms: maintenance, keep, sustenance, subsistence; More

My LBS will price match. 😀

My LBS will price match

So do mine 😀

As bike lovers I bet many of us would love to run a bike shop for a living. I certainly would rather than sitting at a desk all day.

So why would I pay extra purely so someone else can enjoy a better lifestyle than me in an industry that is out of date and can't support itself without my charitable donations.

Sod that

So why would I pay extra purely so someone else can enjoy a better lifestyle than me

So you have never worked in retail then....

I have. The company owner tends to be better off than the shop floor staff (unless its a small or start up business of course).

Just buy the Campy chain, cassette, and rings and you're done without all of this messing around. You get to keep the lovely Athena groupset rather then the 105. 🙂

Next time buy Ultra Torque not Power Torque when it comes to Campy chainsets.

If you do buy a 105 groupset online, crc is part oem doesn't include brake cables or outters. I sent it back and went with merlin, fully boxed up, everything you need to fit, and they included the new 105 pedals too (which is nice, but don't need them..)

with one of their 10% off offers it was around £290ish. Yet to build but it looks great.

Nothing, they offer me nothing but more expensive prices and less choice.
Other businesses have embraced and used the internet but for some reason people think an LBS should stick with the old ways.

As bike lovers I bet many of us would love to run a bike shop for a living. I certainly would rather than sitting at a desk all day.

God no. Hard work long hours, very few make any kind of real money I think.

God no. Hard work long hours, very few make any kind of real money I think.

That's what I meant
Like the idea of it but understand the reality of it in this day and age would be very different

Same old arguments really. a bikeshop owner/employee might complain about 20mins of their time 'wasted' by a customer who looks but decides not to buy. Whereas in a 'office' job you can pitch/work on a project for months/drive for 6hours to be unsuccessful and thats part of your job. It happens. So when a LBS complains about timewasters/internet shaggers it rankles.

Long hours- shops close rigidly and open rigidly at the advertised times. Office work- you aren't expected to turn up at the time on your contract and you sure aint expected to leave on the dot either.

You rarely see a shop staff person eating their lunch leaning against bikes either. In an office you often do it at your desk/dont get out.

Most shops have websites too- some even sell from them as well. So its all blurred lines.

I tend to shop for parts online and try to fit myself, i then take it to the LBS when i get stuck or mess up somewhere along the way...bleeding brakes is something i dont seem to be able to do no matter how many videos i watch...they know the deal, it puts money through the workshop and yes they probably think i'm a dickhead but i havent abandoned the LBS completely and their prices are actually pretty good for building and maintenance.

I tend to use mine like a garage specifically for the stuff I cant do, book the bike in for a specfic service/fix etc. I dont expect them to stock a whole 1 x 11 chain set. Their very good if you talk to them, agree what you want, price and time in advance. On occasion they have said you buy it on line as its cheaper and we'll fit it for you. Once you put regular business their way a good shop will develop a good relationship with you.

I'd personally have a word with them and see what they could do. Would be happy with £50 over the internet price fitted.
Although I buy plenty of stuff over the internet I always try to spend money with the local bike shops.
Don't use them very often but every time I have needed something fixing-replacement spokes, BB pressing ( and mainly in a rush) they have always jumped all over it and made sure I was sorted.

[quote=Pawsy_Bear ]I tend to use mine like a garage specifically for the stuff I cant do, book the bike in for a specfic service/fix etc. I dont expect them to stock a whole 1 x 11 chain set. Their very good if you talk to them, agree what you want, price and time in advance. On occasion they have said you buy it on line as its cheaper and we'll fit it for you. Once you put regular business their way a good shop will develop a good relationship with you.All of that. They are running a business and won't turn away work if they can make a living from it. If that means fitting customer-supplied parts then that's all good. However, be aware that (especially given todays lack of standards) a shop could spend more time trying to resolve an incompatibility problem than they might do if they'd supplied the part.

My LBS is Bass Ass Bikes and they seemed to understand where their value add is and have recently moved their workshop to front of house, presumably to highlight that's what they are about.

For example my Anthem 29er, needed a new chain. I counted 116 links on the factory fitted chain but could only find 114 link chains from the internet stores. So I ring bad ass for their advice, they were surprised it needed 116 but if I bought the chain from them they would throw in any extra links if required to make a 114 up to 116. Their chain was about 30% more expensive than the same I could find online. To be sure I got the correct length chain fitted I called in with my bike. Ten minutes later was walking out with a new chain, fitted and with the extra links required just for the price of the chain. Saving me time and hassle making it worth the extra cost even though I am perfectly capable of fitting a chain myself.

Every time I use Bad Ass they do something to add value that I cant buy on the internet.

Oh well, I asked whether they could drop their price and unfortunately they couldn't budge at all. Their argument is that you're getting something with a guarantee and the advice about fitting etc. That's fair enough I guess if that's their business model that's up to them and to be fair they seem to be doing ok out of it. It's obviously not worth their time and effort. I'll buy online and get them to remove the crank for me and save myself about £80. Sorted.

Long hours- shops close rigidly and open rigidly at the advertised times. Office work- you aren't expected to turn up at the time on your contract and you sure aint expected to leave on the dot either.

You rarely see a shop staff person eating their lunch leaning against bikes either. In an office you often do it at your desk/dont get out.

Not exactly them and us stakes there....

I went back to sailing last year after a geographicaly enforced 10 year break and a broken arm enforced break from cycling. Frankly I was amazed that I could go into a Chandelry and buy bits at near internet prices, have access to their tools, bits from the spares bin, a hand with heavy jobs and occasionaly actual freebies, and never have to cross the owners palm with a packet of hobnobs or spend years buying parts exclusively from him to reach that point. Last week I turned up with the boat on the trailer the day before a race, went in for a bit, fitted it, realised I neeed a few more bits, borrowed their drill, a few ft of rope from the spares bin, etc etc etc. Can you imagine an LBS being that accomodating!

LBS you're paying for someones laminate floor and well lit showroom.

If a spit'n'sawdust LBS opened up and sold brake pads for superstar prices I'd shop there all the time. But all those overheads are useless to me, I want to enjoy riding my bike, 'shopping' is a purely functional activity to facilitate that!

Never ever going to happen these days. Theres a place in Croydon that was very similar (interms of cost of service/helpfulness) to your sailing experience but that was an old school roadie place not one of these 6k carbon, £100 shorts establishments that you get now. With the shift to mega price tags it seems the places seem to think its a premium service/premium everything. I wager that alot of shop staff that pop up defending their employer aren't told (or understand) the full story. i.e. do they really know the cash flow the shop generates and the cost prices etc or are they spieling what they think is right?

No bikeshop would stay in business long if it wasn't making money. I heard one bloke moaning about his business yet when I went in last he had about 5 staff. If hes that quiet he'd be bloody down to just him.

Then theres the bikeshop owner who won the lottery/said he was skint - he said he'd buy another field so his wife would have more room for her 6horses. Not sure what his idea of struggling/skint was because horse cost a serious amount to buy/keep/vets/insurance etc etc. I'll try and dig the story out.

todays purchases:

online v lbs

105 cassette £22 v £40
ultegra chain £13 v £26
cleats £9 v £15
brake pads £4 v £20* different brand.

Which is a £53 saving that I may well spend in the lbs on something else or put a tank of fuel in the car but you'd be bonkers to say I should have paid the higher prices.

[quote=hora ]You rarely see a shop staff person eating their lunch leaning against bikes either. A lunch break? That would have been a complete luxury. Lunch time is usually the business time for a city centre shop so it's all hands to the pump. A quick sandwich might be snaffled "on the go" if time permits afterwards.

Sounds like working in any non council job then.

🙂 LOL Hora....

Working in heaps of places that were non council, plenty of people cruising if you look closely. Worse still are those insisting how busy they are and how they never have any free time. What time do you knock off on a Friday hora?

4. But then I don't see bike staff starting at 7am

Do you stand in bike shops at 7am? Perhaps they work different hours but just as long as you?

Hora - I don't know what it is you do for a living but you're obviously in the wrong job. You know all there is to know about running a bike shop, how much the margins are, how much profit you can make and the very easy hours you have to work. Why would you possibly bothering doing anything else? With your inside knowledge you could be a competitor to Halfords within 12 months. Not only that but you could chop and change your forks even more frequently as they'd obviously cost you almost nothing at all.

Of course you know better sat on here all day too

Well, I've only worked in two bike shops (so far) but I was obviously doing it wrong. Seriously, why aren't you running your own (chain of) shop(s) by now?

FWIW, just back from a ride. It's pretty cold out there but worth it!

and I'm just enjoying the last few days of my holiday passing time on the train waiting for my next beer to arrive 🙂

Question to you why aren't you running your own? To take the higher ground you'd need to have worked on the P&L not as a shop manager given targets to work to. Costs/full utilities and discount and cost prices?

In a previous life I worked on the non shop floor side of retail. Costs/operations/product cost/calculate margins/profit and adjust in season etc.

I've been to 4 bike shops in a 20 mile radius today,3 were not even open,the one that was open didn't have what I needed,didn't seem bothered in ordering what I wanted so I came home and ordered online,my lbs shut down so I have to travel,I remember I started a thread a while back where I was slated for going into a bike shop and then "prasumebly" by STW'ers accused of using bike shops to try gear on for size then going online to buy cheaper,after this I genuinely went out of my way to go to bike shops and get my gear,but all the shops are closing now,the ones that are still open just open when they want and never advise on their website iff the are not open,I need by bike servicing so iff anyone knows of anywhere around Blackburn skipton area where I can get it sorted thank you in advance.

[quote=hora ]Question to you why aren't you running your own? Self-employed - who needs the hassle of that? LBS owners I've worked with never seem to switch off from work. Anyway being semi-retired now I at least get to pick and choose what I do for pocket-money. 😆

Well just bought some 3/4 baggies at LBS - £73, £69 at Chain Reaction which is about 5% difference.

I'm on the boundary between M & L in sizing so being able to try them on meant I knew that they'd fit. OK I know that I can return stuff to CRC but it's a hassle - clothing tends to need to be right.

I need my bike servicing anyone knows of anywhere around Blackburn skipton area where I can get it sorted thank you in advance.

Stuart Rider in Skipton? (Riders Cycle Centre) I think he posts on here occasionally

+1

http://riderscyclecentre.com/

hora, my mate owns one - keeps asking if I want to buy it. Very few days off, not much down time when you want it, constant issues with the internet undercutting his trade prices but he does a great service, sponsors events and fixes bikes really well. Really shows up the home mechanic.

My points earlier were about you suggesting that office workers (in non council offices) work themselves to the bone every day where as bike shops are placid easy places to work and more of a lifestyle choice...