[Closed] STW Zwift Race Series 3 - Winter

That was horrible, I thought I was doing alright pacing myself on the flat, then I got to the climb 🙁

I'd done it once before but couldn't remember just how long it went on for, ever and ever it seemed.

Still, they're all flat courses from now on, right? Right?

Thanks to all the people that gave me ride-ons, seemed to keep coming all the way up the hill, thanks folks.

Would like to have returned the favours but was trying not to notice cramp creeping into my left calf.

See you all on the road to rack and ruin.

That was tough. Robbo Zwift has upped my power again to 235. The series is certainly teaching me how to suffer properly.

Just recovered from doing the 2000 Richmond TDZ stage 2 with DrP (again, did it yesterday, meant to do the Harrowgate event) after Bologna.

@robbo1234biking My FTP needs to increase again after Bologna to 280W. Forgot to check with you before tonight that you saw my post last week after stage 1 at Jungle increasing me to 271W and I'm more than happy for you to retrospectively use it for my stage 1 time handicap.

Tomorow will definitely be an easy day after those two rides tonight!

Well done all on the FTP increases! Some great performances there. 👏👏

That was mega tough as per usual. Having had one test at pacing the effort over this course last week, decided to just try and add a bit more onto the flat part. Notably I tried to get upto speed quickly at ftp then ease off to 280 then hit the lower slopes over to get a flying start. That but went well but I really hadn’t left much in the locker so was suffering big style towards the end of the steep drag past the arches. Add to spin seated for a while at a much lower effort and then go again when it eased off. Felt like I was going to tank at the 16% but just about survived.

The final figures make it look more plain sailing but I was really on and off and struggling to keep a steady pace. Averaged 290/300 up the climb and 354 over the KOM. So kind of to plan but just didn’t feel good at all at the time.

Zwift power still as my best 3 race ftp at 293 but going purely off this race my FTP increased to 303 finishing after finishing with a 319w. average so dragged up another 4w. Can you increase Robbo please.

finishing amongst the top spots is getting harder all the time, it seems the only way to do it is go above ftp every race. I’m going to be pro by summer at this rate thanks to Robbo. Lol.

Congrats to Julie and a host of new names finishing at the top of the leader board, always a tough one for Robbo to work the handicap for a 20m race with so many unknown quantities.

@tpbiker like several others I increased my ftp almost every other race through series one and two, especially after the shorter or hillier races. Just going all in on the climbs chasing the likes of savo, JR and Ian helps with that. Plus personally I use always shy away from the hillier routes solo and for races, I’ve had no choice in the series and joined the lads at the weekend for some torturous routes which as helped build some form but also to understand my limitations better.

@robbo1234biking I got an increase in FTP to 221

That was hard, I somehow had enough left to overtake someone right at the finish line but couldn't do anything when chipps and a few others went past me on the climb.

Really enjoyed tonight in a suffering kind of way, I think my pacing was a bit off as I had to really dig in over the last couple of Km. My FTP has gone up to 328 which is a pretty big jump from the last race. I think I’ve gone up nearly 80w since November, mustn’t have been trying hard enough 😆

Think we are up to about 15 FTP increases tonight! Seeing as it is pretty much a ramp test it isn't surprising!

Some of you will move up a cat as well but I will do that when I work out the handicaps for next week.

@scaredypants join me on Saturday 10am. I’m jumping in to a TT then see how I stack up against everyone’s times, since I missed tonight’s race.

So it’s FTP increases all round - looks like Robbo’s race series is getting us fitter!

So how are you all working out your FTP increases???

My average for this 18 odd minutes was 311watts...

Looking on strava AND ZP, it hasn’t changed my FTP.
In fact, ZP still estimates my FTP as 284 in my profile... Strava flashed up a few months ago it was 292...

Looking back at my ZP races I can clearly see my race wattage climbing and climbing (for example - I did a crit last year where my average power was 3.8w/kg... I could easily get 4.4w/kg Now!)...

However, the numbers haven’t seemed to have changed in my profile...
Meh...

DrP

@DrP I think it's because for a lot of us mere mortals it was a 20min+ effort 😉 so Zwift is using 95% of new best 20 min efforts as new FTP. I got a message just as I was closing (after the Strava save screen, or mebbes before, I was still hurting).

Well first ever stw race, thanks for organising, should have ridden the course before, poor start going straight off the line, and under FTP on flat and only a couple if watts over on climb, so not a great performance but I can do worse next week with poor drafting skills and little race craft 😆, a tt was probably my best event with someone a few seconds ahead the whole way to chase down.

@DrP for me Zwift flashed up a message at the end of the ride saying 'Oh Yeah', you've increased your FTP 346 to 348, and it seems to automatically update the FTP value in your profile.

I don't think Zwiftpower automatically updates, but that could be wrong.

@phil56...

So even though your ride was under 20 min, it still worked out an ftp change?

Hmm....

Maybe I'll do a ramp test or 20 min ftp in a week or so!

DrP

Dr P, I don’t think my ZwiftPower numbers are updating properly either. I can’t be exact on when they last changed but neither the race Category or the number for watts or W/kg for 15secs through to 20 mins seem to have changed in a while.

Zwift is using 95% of new best 20 min efforts as new FTP

Yes, this. I also checked what Zwift said on Intervals.icu and it estimated the same new FTP.

So even though your ride was under 20 min,

I guess Phil warmed down for at least a few minutes after the TT so that would have given Zwift a 20min best effort.

This is what happens if you get a new FTP in a ride.

https://zwiftinsider.com/adjust-your-ftp/

As this week was an individual time trial if anyone missed it and would still like to suffer I am happy to accept a time from an official event to be counted for the GC. I cant award any points but may keep your GC hopes alive. In an official event the result need to be done on a MTB still.

I mentioned I my earlier post, Zwift seems to take 95% of my actual race (19 minutes) to calculate my 'new' FTP. I did warm down, but at a much lower power out put, and if I look at my best 20 minute effort on Strava (race + first minute of warm down), the FTP calculates at 304W

Weirdly... At the end of the ride I got the "Oh Yeah! We've detected an increase in your FTP" message, but it didn't actually tell me by how much like it has done in the past. Had to go into my profile afterwards to find that out.

ZP hasn't even logged an attempt at a new FTP for this race - guessed because the race itself lasted less than 20 mins.

I'm sure zwift uses more than one benchmark to auto detect ftp. It definitely picks up 95% of 20 minutes. But also at least one (unpublished) % of a lesser time, 10 or 12 mins maybe can trigger it. Not a whole range of possibilities like intervals.icu etc but at least one alternative. It's difficult to reverse engineer what it's looking at from rides on this course though where there will be lots of coincidences in data because of the nature of the effort.

Zp on the other hand definitely only cares about 95% of 20 minutes.

I don't think ZP has ever reliably updated FTP.

I got my message as I left zwift. I hung around cooling down till about 25mins but then when straight to a second race without a zwift restart. Got the message as I left the second race (though the effort was in the first).

Do people really do two laps of that in a race? I guess the much suggested tactic of upto hill 10/20% lower than ftp, hill 10/20% over must go out of the window.

I always warm down for a while if I can which took me back around to the climb yesterday, I was thinking of jumping off at that point but thought to just do it again at a more sedate effort. I was aboard a road bike so surely that will help as well. There is no way on gods earth I could get anywhere near the same effort as the first time up and that’s after quite a decent period of recovery. I was creeping up at around 220w until got bored and tried to muster 300w for the final couple of sections but that was extremely painful.

Would definitely need a total rethink on strategy for two laps, don’t think I’ll ever try it though for some reason.

First TT for me, didn't realise the start wasn't straight from the pens. Hard work from the off but couldn't muster much on the later sections of the climb but enough for an FTP increase to 231 Watts. Great work everyone, a few passed me like i was rolling backwards!

I’m sure zwift uses more than one benchmark to auto detect ftp.

I think you must be right @sayoyad - last night I shut Zwift down as soon as I crossed the line so I could restart it for my wife's ride - I definitely didn't reach 20 mins and Strava has my ride time as 18.52, which is about 20 seconds longer than the race, so about right.

So it must have used something other than 95% of 20 mins to calculate my FTP increase

once again...Zwift hates me... 😀

DrP

That was my very first TT, it didn't fit in to reccie the course beforehand. I think I was too conservative on the flat, averaging about 80% ftp, then on the climb about 110% ftp until the last KM when I got a stitch (I haven't had a stitch for ages!) so backed off to ftp. Therefore I averaged under ftp for the whole route. Judging by how quickly I recovered, I could have gone harder, but now I know for next time.

That was my very first TT, it didn’t fit in to reccie the course beforehand. I think I was too conservative on the flat, averaging about 80% ftp, then on the climb about 110% ftp until the last KM when I got a stitch (I haven’t had a stitch for ages!) so backed off to ftp. Therefore I averaged under ftp for the whole route. Judging by how quickly I recovered, I could have gone harder, but now I know for next time.

With a two-phase TT course like that you just need to get a time on the board and take things from there - when you're confident you have the legs for the distance / climb / effort you can actually push the flat to 100% ftp and then raise the climb 110% +

The first K of the climb is critical for me - needs to be a sustained sort of increase, ie not get to the foot of it and think you need to blow it up. That will let me do the second K harder - I'm a 'steady' climber, though, to put it charitably. A good light climber might want to put a sharper effort in right away.

Anybody else using a Tacx Flow? Mine only seems to lose Bluetooth, (assuming that’s what’s happening) on climbs during races when I’m feeling strong.

I had one until recently and yes, over about 250w at lower cadence/low gears and they overheat. I bodger an old PC fan into the side of mine which helped but also seemed to give me wildly overestimated power (+20%). I guess just make sure it has some airflow.

Last night was my first TT! I think maybe I went a bit too easy on the flat (90%ftp), but seemed to be able to maintain 115-120% on the climb. It's a real ****er that though, ay? Alternating between seated and standing, maybe went too easy on the flatter (lol) bits. Still, pretty happy. Made me realise there's more to a TT than just going full gas. Interesting.

Seems like putting the TT in meant a lot of people got to try something new and different and enjoyed it! Glad that it had the desired effect and looks worthwhile considering for future Series.

Does the Watopia TT course use the same launch system? I did one TT on that over xmas but it was just a normal start from the pens. I thought other TT courses would use the same system?

With hindsight I could have gone harder. I forgot about the undulations at the start so was quite erratic there. HR didn't go over 165 so there was some reserve there as well. Think I may have another go on a fast Friday event and try to max out.

@robbo1234biking yes you can have the TT start on fuego flats.

Is there a list somewhere of all courses ridden as TT? I should imagine Innsbruck with the leg snapper would be very good or a couple of laps of Paris.

HR didn’t go over 165 so there was some reserve there as well.

I didn't get above 170 so had another 13bpm to find somewhere!

@kirky72 - why don't you join the TTT on Thursday evenings? I think the only official routes are Fuego Flats and Bologna. There is a CC that organises TT events - I think it is Newbury Velo but there is a 8.30am TT on Tempis Fugit as well on Thursday. You can filter TT on the companion app.

@kirky72 any course can be offered as a TT. I think only tempus fugit and bologna offer the full TT mode though (conveyor belt start, TT focussed HUD and splits). Anywhere else and a TT just means a mass start with no draft available. Filter zwiftpower event listing by TT and you'll see what's on offer.
Zwift being zwift, there are sometimes races with "TT" in their name which don't seem to actually be set up as TTs. Nice for gamblers I guess.

@robbo I have considered it but Thursday is often my day for a ride of a decent length, ideally outside, then rest day Friday ready for a big ride Saturday. Also at the moment other than bits and pieces of ad hoc work I have most of the day free so it’s a shame to wait all day to race in the evening. I also struggle to wind down after until very late in the evening, used to hate the late on kick offs at 5 a side for this reason.

I’m definitely a morning person and it was hard yesterday kind of sacrificing a lovely bright day where I could have had a run out on the newish bike in favour of 20 minutes of pain in the evening. I’m enjoying the experience of the series on the night and the discussion before and after so the trade off is winning at the moment. Come spring and hopefully being able to ride some nice long loops outside again I should imagine my preference would be more around riding out supplemented by Zwift as and when.

Do people really do two laps of that in a race? I guess the much suggested tactic of upto hill 10/20% lower than ftp, hill 10/20% over must go out of the window.

That was good, felt like I was stuck not going anywhere as soon as the wall hit - and the cadence seemed slower than the pedaling I was doing up the steep bits as people flew past me as I was stood still. Really pleased to have won the D cat, but as you said @robbo1234biking I am on the cusp on C/D - so it would either be winning D or last place in C by the look of those numbers. Looking forward to the next one.

I definitely didn’t reach 20 mins and Strava has my ride time as 18.52, which is about 20 seconds longer than the race, so about right.

I think it basically goes a bit screwy with short races.

It seems to use your race average power but ride time. Eg @Phil56 in your case it will be your 370w average race power +the short lead in any pedaling in the pen or warming up before etc. Your ride time is actually showing at 25 min which is plenty. It doesn't seem to adjust your ftp to best 20min though. It just takes your race avg power and calls it 20min if the ride time is over that.

I think it's an error in the implementation of the published one rather than another undisclosed method.

@kirky72 I know what you mean about struggling to wind down. I had a full on day yesterday so was quite tired last night but had an awful night's sleep. I was half dreaming about TT bikes and Bologna. I have always done Zwift and Traineroad in the evenings without a problem so I think it's the extra adrenaline of proper racing that lingers a bit. The biggest complement I can pay to the STW series is I never have problems sleeping after TdZ events!

A few people have mentioned not getting close to their maximum heart rates but in a 20 minute test, there's little to no chance of any HR drift and so it would really need to be an all out effort to get closer to MHR - not a relatively steady state effort like a TT. A sprint after an hour long race would always yield a higher HR I think.

The watobia tt is pan flat, I've done it lots. It's well suited to some of the guys on here with big power but perhaps not the lightest. And unlike a real tt where it's a balance of power vs aero, its purely down to how much horsepower someone can put out.

I reckon I could save everybody the pain of riding it and name the top 10 based purely on power outputs for last few races!

If we do do it, I think there are 2 versions, the 17.6 km and the 16km version. The 16km version is 10 miles, and my times on a zwift tt bike are uncannily close to my proper 10 mile tt time outdoors. Worth knowing if you ever fancy doing a proper tt and want to know how fast you'll go.

@slowpuncheur I have hit my highest HR that I am aware of on a ramp test which is also pretty short. I just feel like I left something on the table in the final minutes to really get the best. My performance last night was pretty underwhelming to be honest though.

I don't pay any attention to HR during a race to be honest. I would be quite happy to just record HR but not see it during the race or training session but Zwift doesn't let you do that. I figure my own bodies survival systems will kick in if I am pushing to hard - I never knew what my HR was doing whilst playing a game of rugby but just seems to be something else we obsess over as cyclists! We do seem to like our data!

@robbo1234biking I suppose everyone's physiology is different. I remember you saying you had ridden 11 days on the bounce. Lower HR might be an early sign of the need for a recovery day or two before you become 'overtrained'. You did a big block at the end of December. Even @weeksy is slowly becoming a convert to rest and recovery;)

Oh yeh I keep a careful eye on what I am doing. My resting HR starts to increase when I am starting to get too much training in but it was 46 last night so think that is fine. I did a really easy 30 mins today and then got 36 hours of rest before racing tomorrow night. My biggest issue at the moment is maintaining my level of fitness gained after the December block. I cant generate enough fatigue to the level of fitness so it is starting to taper off but I will just have to accept that it will drop a bit (was around 72 and is now on 69 and dropping).

Far from it.

Had fairly substantial surgery yesterday. So layoff enforced upon me.

Hope that all went well weeksy.