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Just a quick one for any who wanted to donate but haven't yet. The fund raiser for Cardiac Risk in the Young (which started as a plan to buy a thank you beer or two for Robbo but he asked be donated instead) is currently just under £250.00
A big thanks to Robbo for organising this and everyone who has put their hand in their pocket too, I appreciate at the moment money is tight for a lot of folks so an (extra) huge thank you to you all.
I'll leave the go fund me running untill next Friday to coincide with the end of the season then I'll sort out getting funds over to Cardiac Risk in the Young.
Thanks again all and the pot can be found here
gf.me/u/yxg8gr
Awesome! Well done all!
Chuck in what you can as a thank you to Robbo for such a great event.
I know we agreed we were changing to Paris but how far are we going @Robbo1234biking? It's a harder circuit than London Classique and 40km could be ruinous.
It is 4.1 miles so 5 laps plus the 2 mile lead in would make it 22 miles (35k) which seems appropriate - how many laps do you sip champagne for?
Thanks to all for contributing for the donation. Racing over £300 for charity isn't a bad effort!
great result on the fundraising total - and awesome work by Robbo in getting the series up and running, its been great fun to be a part of this having never raced on Zwift before and I have enjoyed following all the post race banter as well..
looking forward to the final race of this series
It's a flat one isn't it...
Yuk....
DrP
It's surprisingly un-flat for a flat race, not hilly just... not flat.
I've done a 4 lap race around Paris before, 5 will be tough!
i see the race splitting early doors, only into mini groups, but sticking with the fast guys up 2-3% when they're putting in 5w/kg, well that's crazy talk. I'm hoping for group 2 or 3 and sitting in.
Just done 2 laps of a 4 lap race round the reverse course, i managed 17 mins at race ish pace, but then decided it was time to ease off and keep the lurgy in check.
Ill have a look at some races over the past week or so and check if 4 or 5 laps is more suitable.
but sticking with the fast guys up 2-3% when they’re putting in 5w/kg, well that’s crazy talk
I did a series with primes on that incline. Was 5w/kg at the bottom, building to 6w/kg before the sprint and sprint at 9-11w/kg. Did not go well for me, especially lap one where the first rider went big at 500m!
@Robbo I just checked on my Zwift power, it was 5 laps so ignore me!! took around 56 minutes so should be fine with the 5 lapper. Got some of my biggest numbers in that one!
and check if 4 or 5 laps is more suitable
It would be great if we could have at least one race long enough to try and make inroads into the handicap as folk start to feel the pace - 5 laps please!!!
It would be great if we could have at least one race long enough to try and make inroads into the handicap as folk start to feel the pace – 50 laps please!!!
FTFY
as much as it wouldn't suit me & I would hate it, some kind of "endurance" ride [I]would[/I] mix things up a bit and allow riders like Phil a bit of a chance for some points as the format/handicaps haven't been too kind to them thus far! 6 laps? 😂It would be great if we could have at least one race long enough to try and make inroads into the handicap as folk start to feel the pace – 5 laps please!!!
Ill happily try a longer one, Just not at 280w !
Yep, I’m the same, happy to do a longer race over an hour. Course needs hills of some description though to give the faster guys a chance of wearing us all down. I’m happy cruising at 250/260 watts, it’s the 350 watt accelerations that get to me. Would be a bit of a sickener for Phil and co on a flat ride if he’s doing 300 and just dragging everyone along for an hour.
if he’s doing 300
Well that's only if he's warming up 🙂
Him and the other fast last would likely do us lot on the first time out of the underpass, put 25m into us and then hold 300w, it's game over... How much they'll pull out i don't know, but i think that would gap many.
Would be a bit of a sickener for Phil and co on a flat ride if he’s doing 300 and just dragging everyone along for an hour.
You'll be fine tonight then! You just describer the TTT 🙂
put 25m into us and then hold 300w, it’s game over… How much they’ll pull out i don’t know, but i think that would gap many.
That's never happened yet - and I'm holding much more than 300w! I've finished with an average of over 320w every race, but that's not enough to hold off a group when they chase me down - and they always do!
This week I tried everything to get a gap, but as soon as I open a few meters the usual suspects are all over me. I finished with an average of 320w, won the KoM jersey (which is ridiculous for someone of my weight) and ended up in the bunch sprint for 2nd place with a group who I then had to concede between 3 and 5 minutes to in the handicap!
I've tried everything else - a longer race in the hope that the buggers can't hang on for an hour is my only hope!!
LOL tough one matey... If you don't have the answers then neither do i....
Back them up at 250w, then 500w, for 1 mins, then down to 250, back to 500w, back to 250, back to 500....
That’s never happened yet
Indeed. Gapping the folks behind doesn't need a quick kick up a short hill, it's just not big enough and the reward for chasing us down means it's a sensible decision to sprint after and then take a rest if the gap isn't huge.
To drop you in a group on Paris weeksy I reckon I'd need to be at 600 plus for a good minute then to be able to hold 330 for the rest of the race. A group is about 15% faster than a rider at the same output so holding a lead needs 20% more watts really.
Think of it this way, what's your output for the first minute or so of crit city? To gap you I need to make 40% more for about 10 seconds so you loose my draft, then hold 20% more for the rest of that minute, followed by 20% more for the rest of the race, so if your average is 260, with a 1 minute high of 400, and 10 second of 500 that means 10 seconds at 700w, 1 minute at 560, and rest of race at 312. Coincidentally just about spot on for my best ever figures on zp
But its not just your numbers to beat, I need to make 40%more than everyone in your bunch so you can't all just tailgate in sequence, early in the race "your group" though is you, savoyad, kirky, zilog, TP, Phil etc. You don't need to follow me, you need to follow zilog. Zilog follows Adam, follows TP follows Phil and somehow I need to gap Phil and make it stick or hope Phil and TP also go hard and come with me because if either of them thinks the best plan is 360w for 5 minutes instead of 600 for 1, you're all back with (now broken) me.
Don't get me wrong, it's been a fun series so far and I wouldn't change the formula but it ain't as easy as a little kick here and there.
Yet in a 1 lap cat C race the winning group (of 7) was able to put 45s into the 2nd group (also of 7). That split was driven entirely by a push at the start of the rise and was caused because it was sustained all the way to the descent, I was caught just behind the split pushing (getting on) 4wkg and still couldn't hold eventually I was tailed off at the sprint banner.
Over the course of a couple of laps in Paris a surging approach probably can thin a group down pretty heavily especially if a few of the strong riders worked together.
In a cat C race, (ignoring the fact that there will be at least 1 cat a and 2 cat b in that lead group because this is zwift) the fast group is big enough to gain from that group size, the bigger the group, the faster it travels for a given effort. In our number there are a, *lot* of riders in the middle and not so many at either end (Ohhhhh Bell curves) so when the quick folks go they have to work harder to stay away.
In your case...
A 4w/kg chase means the front of the group you were following was doing a touch over that, even if the draft was only 1 person deep the back was at 2.6w/kg in draft.
That's fine where everyone is at broadly similar outputs, you can't make the 4.2w/kg effort to bridge that and, once they're clear, so long as they have similar numbers of bodies, they only need to hold the same effort as you to stay away, any effort above translates to time on the road. That's fine in a roughly single ability group, but chances are in our races there will be at least 1 a in that second group who can make the power to bridge and they just tow the rest of you back on.
(I'd lay good odds there were some in that front group with much lower average w and w/kg than plenty in the chase group too)
Admittedly they're deliberately riding as a team but that's 3 laps of astoria 8 line which is lumpy but not hilly, there's over 100W between the first rider over the line and the most powerful, for a difference of 1 second.
That's the same team on greatest London flat.
Holding the right wheel makes much more of a difference than just power and in our series there's a whole spread to hold.
The power to get away from the lead group on the flat is beyond all but 2 or 3 of the guys who race.
I wasn't paying attention on Tuesday and let a gap form between me and the pack. I was only 4 seconds behind but was having to pump out well over 5w/kg for over 2 min to bridge the gap.
I could probably get away from most of the group on the climbs, but it's absolutely pointless as unless the finish is right at the top of the hill I'd just get swallowed up on the run to the finish.
Next week's race will be a mass finish I suspect, with most of the b's and some of the c's making it home in the main bunch. As someone who is currently 3rd in the handicap standings i fully realise this aint good for me as there is no way im going to be able to put any kind if distance between myself and the guys with smaller handicaps in the standings just behind me.
But then I can't really conplain about that as I'm only in 3rd because the likes of Phil and the other A's who have larger handicaps than me can't shake me off their wheel either.
I've rarely seen the single effort break work in a race, just like real life, the effort pretty much needs to be superhuman and the rider significantly stronger/more motivated than anyone else on the road. you need to make a massive effort to get a gap big enough that your aren't just a tasty carrot to chase for the rest of the riders and then you need to hold a constant power higher than the person on the front of the group (who is basically just doing intervals as they rotate through).
The more reliable way is a series of efforts that tires the people prepared/capable of making the gaps back one by one until they start looking at each other, this is much easier if you've got a good mix of abilities in the group as you've often got a good proportion just hanging on, so if they few capable start looking at those just hanging on to do a turn, then they are doomed, as that's more time for the gap to open.
Most of the time, the break doesn't work as you expect, you don't get a solo break you get a few people who come with you, but there's split further back in the group due to inattention or the group being strung out enough that there's a little gap that a weaker rider can't bridge. So you then have to start again, but with a smaller group.
It's a really bad idea to just hang in the group doing your 'fair' share of the work especially if you don't have a great sprint, you just end up finishing in a big group and taking your chances in the sprint. You have to work, put the rest of the group under pressure and make sure everyone has to work to stay on and gets tired, that way if someone goes off the front, there's a good chance the group will split. Groups where everyone does their 'fair' share are the death of a good time, stand a good chance of being caught by groups behind, and end in the lottery of a mass sprint, which means most people end up with a worse place than they could have got otherwise. Of course if you are hanging on for grim death then you can only hang on, the good news if you can hang on till the end is that you end up with a better place than you should have expected, but it's stupid for people who are capable of more to not work harder, Hanging on for the sprint is a tactic for the desperate or those lucky few who really do have a good sprint (there are less of those than you think)
As I am busy this weekend the handicaps are live for the last event. There are a lot more groups this time and this course is very dependent on how much power you can put down rather than how much you weigh. If you do want to update your FTP this week then let me know but because the gaps are quite large unless it is a significant bump it prob wont make a different overall.
If you can get in the group in front and hang in there then that will be a bonus. The sprint finish will also matter as it will likely determine the points that go to that group! Everything to play for in this final race.
If you do want to update your FTP this week then let me know but because the gaps are quite large unless it is a significant bump it prob wont make a different overall.
Mine has been updated to 32.
Can I have a new handicap please 😉
I’ve rarely seen the single effort break work in a race, just like real life
You didn't see Crazy Harry's majestic alaphilippe like winning move on tuesday then! It was the absolute perfect break, smashed the climb then hung on for grim death for the final flat 5km run in. And just like real life i got the impression no one in the chasing group was prepared to bury themselves to bring him back for fear of missing out in the sprint (Or maybe that was just me!)
That said, there is no way I could pull off such a move, I just don't have the outright power to keep away.
If you can get in the group in front and hang in there then that will be a bonus.
Only Kirky, DrP, etc to stick with then...yeah like that will happen hahaha!
Next week’s race will be a mass finish I suspect, with most of the b’s and some of the c’s making it home in the main bunch.
Did the Volcano one have any Cs in at the pointy end ? I can see the Bs in there potentially in Paris, but i think the Cs will struggle.
Did the Volcano one have any Cs in at the pointy end ?
First two C came over with me about 2 minutes down I think.
That said, they dropped the group at the same time I did, I don't doubt for a second they'd have held that front group had they been holding onto one of the B in the group and not caught my wheel as I fell through the group.
(had I realised they were C riders doing well rather than As who could help me pull back on without ruining myself I might have put my head down and pulled the three of us back on and hoped to recuperate a bit in the group instead of hoping to pace back on between 3 of us. By the time I twigged it wasn't going to be a shared effort [no offence to kirky or Andy!] I was way too far back to bridge and hold it)
On the bad news, good news front, the predicament I had of me racing or taking my eldest to her dance lesson as been solved by her now needing to quarantine for 14 days as one of her school mates as been tested COVID positive. So all clear to race unless there’s a sting in the tale.
Oops same handicap for the first time as Savoyad, woody and DrP blimey, and giving 2mins to Andeh who’s always very close behind. Going to be a toughie and more important than ever to stick with the markers. Are the groupings for this one based around falling into a bracket watts wise and not so much effect of weight?
I’ve not ridden Paris very often but I think there’s two opportunities for the big hitters to try and shake the tail off. If this happens in the first 2 or 3 laps then the winners going be an A and create enough time to over come the handicap.
@mahowlett You make some good points but they really don't work the same in a handicap race
It’s a really bad idea to just hang in the group doing your ‘fair’ share of the work especially if you don’t have a great sprint, you just end up finishing in a big group
....and then get to take 3/4/5 mins off your time and overtake everyone in the results table!
You didn’t see Crazy Harry’s majestic alaphilippe like winning move on tuesday then! It was the absolute perfect break, smashed the climb then hung on for grim death for the final flat 5km run in.
All of which meant he made a dent of 16 seconds into the 3/4/5 minute handicap, everyone apart from me in the group he dropped still finished well ahead of him as he dropped to 22nd!
Yeah but with panache though!
Yeah but with panache though!
That is true! Despite the result it was impressive
All of which meant he made a dent of 16 seconds into the 3/4/5 minute handicap, everyone apart from me in the group he dropped still finished well ahead of him as he dropped to 22nd!
Well yeah, but that's the handicap system for you isn't it. Which is why I think next series we should mix it up a bit with a tt and an alpine finish. Any routes that reward drafting will always benefit those with the higher handicaps.
Next week I'll put my morgage on the handicap winner not being an A, the route won't allow it.
Savoy has it
I'm not sure how the handicap is calculated.
Should we all race on the the same model of bike? Would that make a difference? Or make the handicap system work better?
I think I'm slightly confused.
I can't see anyone but kirky for the title to be honest though I think andeh may be on for the stage, he's pretty tenacious holding on and has a bit of a kick for the line still.
If he holds the right wheels I think he's in with a good chance of being in the first group over the line and he can lose 2 minutes to savoyad. He only lost a touch more than that to Southside Johnny who was first over the line on the volcano.
I’m not sure how the handicap is calculated
It's an early version of an A level results prediction algorithm.
I calculate the estimated time for each person to complete the course based on their ftp and weight. I then take that time from the time the slowest person will complete the course to get the handicap. This handicap then gets added to your finishing time to give the overall time. I round the time as it spits out second gaps so I round up. So you are more interested in what your handicap is to people you have finished close to rather than other people.
Bold prediction @weeksy !
I scored 0 points in rgv week. And to win this week I'd actually have to beat riders who previously I've "only" needed to follow. I'll try and prove you right though.
Fwiw, I think a winner after handicap from amongst the strongest riders is more likely than @dangeourbrain and @phil56 do. The RGV race and the Road to Ruins both had gaps which could have got big enough with a little more time...