I rode at Bedgebury yesterday for the first time in a while and noticed alot of corners/section had been cut by riders effectively straight lining a lot of corners. Is this the price were paying for people pushing for Strava KOM's or just a general lack of skill/laziness that riders would rather ride across a corner than round it properly?
Where I like in East Kent there is some lovely singletrack I regulary ride and even there some of the tech corners section have now been straight lined.
Any one else noticed this on there local trails?
it's always happened though I suspect strava has swelled the number of people doing it. it'll calm down once the newness of strava wears off I reckon.
Sorry for the hijack but my father in law lives in Whitstable. Is there any decent riding around there?
As for corner cutting. We get it alot at Stainburn. The only solution is lots of logs/rocks to stop it.
It's a mjor problem on purpose built trials, initially it drags mud onto the trial, then the edge of the trail gets churned up, then the armoured surface collapses. When we build now we try and design the trail so that there is a tree on the inside of a corner or large roack. Same thing happens with steps and roots. If there aren't natural obstructions either side we build them now, if we don't the lazier / less confident riders just trash the trail. It's hard enough keeping on top of the damage the weather does without having to repair the damage done by poor riding. We also try and properly armour areas where people lock wheels, takes long but lasts longer.
Been a problem for a lot longer than Strava has been about.
Mugboo, Im in Whitstable too. Nice singletrack in Rough Common/Blean woods between Whitstable and Canterbury. Message me If you want showing around if your down this way.
Let's be clear about this, it's only acceptable if neither of your wheels touch the ground.
Might I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
mattsccm - MemberMight I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
but then again people have been cutting corners on Berm Baby Berm at Glentress - it's a pump track ffs! The corners are the whole point of it - ****s
on the other hand Broon Troot (also at GT) has had some sections ruined by mincers trying to find an easy way around some turns - also ****s
the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
That is amongst the stupidest things I have ever read on STW. 🙄
Glentress's Zoom or Bust is a great example, we spent ages building a wiggly trail and riders set about making it a motorway (then complain on STW that Glentress is just a big motorway). When it's just bad riding I can understand that but the intentional corner cuts really pisses me off.
If you want to ride everywhere in a straight line there's green routes and roads. If you're riding a trail, you [i]ride the trail.[/i]
I don't think it's anything to do with Strava- all this stuff predates it- but it probably doesn't help. Racing definately brings out the worst, if you go down Plora Craig just now you can't miss that there's been a race down it recently, every single corner has a new straightline.
cutting corners has always happened and will always happen, just the mentality of some riders, It isn't just about skill levels, some riders want to go fast and rather than accept the trail as is will amend it to make it faster or "better", regardless of why the trail is the way it is. Feeds into the building jumps on natural trails IMO.
mattsccm - MemberMight I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
Errrr, trail centre trails don't go anywhere at all, if you were being efficient about it then you'd stay in the car park!
But I do kinda agree, and as stumpyjon says, building trails so they go around trees/rocks etc largely avoids this.
legend - Memberon the other hand Broon Troot (also at GT) has had some sections ruined by mincers trying to find an easy way around some turns - also ****
The step in the first corner of the Bitch has had the chicken runs grow so big that they undermined the actual feature and it's collapsed! Unbelievable knobberness.
It's been happening for ages. Though I did find it happened suddenly. The problem I find is that if you're going a bit you tend to follow the cut corners?
Being an oldgit I find the aesthetics bloody dreadfull, lines everywhere.
I know I get criticized for my opinions, but sometimes I'll tidy up. Nothing that'll cause a problem, perhaps just use a fallen branch to cut off a line.
It does get annoying when it becomes hard to tell which is the "proper" line! Always curse myself if I find I've accidentally cut a corner.
Aye, that's the kicker really, it only takes a few knobbers to establish a cut, and then it's inevitable that people will innocently/unknowingly follow it. I heard someone having a moan at Glentress that Falla Brae was too straight and boring- presumably because he didn't see the actual trail wending its way round the straightlines 🙁
Falla Brae has taken a real turn for the worse in the last 6 months and they have even had to put fences in part of the the Dougie Bank climb to stop shortcutters!!
Might I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
I know what you mean. When I'm at Stainburn I often think that I could be down at the bottom in moments if it weren't for all those annoying paths with corners and such.
What's particularly frustrating is that the chicken lines become trickier than the proper one, then new chicken lines appear and make it a right mess. This often when the original line could be ridden by any MTB'er with an ounce of confidence. I think rocks frighten people, trail builders should use other materials like pillows and soft vegetation. I mean ffs Stainburn doesn't even have soft vegetation, if you're off then it's punishment by gorse. Can the trail builders not pull it all out and replace with some nice petunias???
</rant>
That is amongst the stupidest things I have ever read on STW.
The other being under trail heating. That was classic.
Trouble with rocks stopping the short cuts is some nobber runs out of skill/track, hits them and puts himself in hospital, then tries to sue the forestry commision because his accident was obviously their fault.
Lol @ Gingerss
Russjp - I might just do that and thankyou.
If you ever have the misfortune to find yourself in Bradford I will return the favour 🙂
bigdugsbaws - MemberFalla Brae has taken a real turn for the worse in the last 6 months and they have even had to put fences in part of the the Dougie Bank climb to stop shortcutters!!
Aye, and someone cut a big hole in the fence.
Using an existing feature such as a tree or installing a feature such as a rock is a recognised trail design feature to 'anchor' the trail, in fact when routing a trail such features are sought out.
At times corner cutting may identify a corner which doesn't work as well as it could but on the whole (in my experience) it's a case of lazy or ignorant riding. Grrr, etc.
Spread of trails is inevitable if they are well used. Purpose built ones need to have something to stop people cutting corners. I always thought is was more common on hairpins on climbs. Big logs and rocks sort that out. I don't understand it on the way down though.
It's probably the one discussed above but at GT there is a trail where you actually have to look for the proper line and if you are going at speed you'll miss it. BAsically a boulder garden that everyone has ridden round.
One solution may be purpose built chicken runs to contain the spread and keep people on a trail even if it not the main one. Doubles the build though.
mattsccm - MemberMight I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
All corners are created "for the sake of it". If you don't like it, build your own trail or **** off to the velodrome. 😉
or **** off to the velodrome
There's still 2 corners though!
Yeah but you don't have to turn your steering, apply your brakes, move your body position or do any of the other things that make cornering on an MTB such a massive, insurmountable chore.
One solution may be purpose built chicken runs to contain the spread and keep people on a trail even if it not the main one. Doubles the build though.
We were actively contemplating this yesterday at Gisburn, the rocky staircase at the end of Homebaked is going to get trashed if people keep sliding down the muddy banked (which is way more difficult than the rocks), also considering an alternative to another rock drop we put in before it becomes a problem. Big issue though is it does slow the build down somewhat.
Nothing new here;
Wainwright denounced corner cutters in the 50s and 60s.
And that was just walkers!
I often find my self "tidying" straight-lined bits. Grab a very fallen branches or logs and stack them across the shortcut, and then shovel as much loose leaves/vegetation over it to hide it as much as possible. If people can't see the line then they generally won't take it (IME), make it look a very unattractive option and people will do the corner and keep it on track.
It really doesn't take long for the line to disappear - if everyone tidied a bit each ride then in no time at all the trails would be perfectly neat with no variations and everyone would know exactly what their supposed to be doing... err... that's what we want isn't it? 😉
On the Black route? I was round there a few months ago (first time in years) and was at the bottom of one of the steeper sections before I realised I'd missed the "old" line completely as the boulders are now covered in grass.jonba - Member
It's probably the one discussed above but at GT there is a trail where you actually have to look for the proper line and if you are going at speed you'll miss it. BAsically a boulder garden that everyone has ridden round.
I'm all for straight or different lining.
For a start Wainwright didn't approve of it, and anything that miserable little nutter doesn't approve of must be right.
Plus if I wanted to stick to corners planned by others I'd buy a railway set.
IanMunro - Member
I'm all for straight or different lining.
Why?
Why?
Because the fact that an existing trail follows a certain path doesn't in itself mean that's the best, or the only option available, just the predefined one.
In the same way as the existence of say a fire road straight though a forest from point A to point B isn't reason enough not to stray from said fire road and try other options.
Why?
Because the fact that an existing trail follows a certain path doesn't in itself mean that's the best, or the only option available, just the predefined one.
It's a two way street though, In the same way as the existence of say a fire road straight though a forest from point A to point B isn't reason enough not to stray from said fire road and try other options.
Isn't that the point though, if you wanted a straight wide path, stick to the fire road, otherwise stick to the trail?
People have spent a lot of time and effort building these trails for OUR benefit, so the least WE can do is treat them with the respect they deserve. I you don't want to ride what's been built get out of the trail centres and onto the moors and real countryside.
Straight lining ruins the trails and is done by people who are either to ignorant or not good enough to ride the trail at the speed they're going at. Don't wreck it for everyone else.
I assume that these straightliners are probably a lot of the people who bitch that trail centres are rubbish and neutering MTB.
Wouldn't know about trail centres, none nearby.
the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.
You appear to be getting a bit of stick for that comment. It's not worth much, but i tend to agree with you.
Some corners are designed control speed, and if you're not going that fast, you may not notice that they can spoil the flow of a trail for some.
All the new trail centres I've been to recently have had climbs that wiggle slightly where a straight line between the start and finish of the section could have been constructed. I can't see the point and it appears nether could lots of other riders as new straight lines were appearing everywhere. It seams inevitable this was going to happen, [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path ]desire paths[/url] are a known phenomenon!
I can't see the point
You're going off to ride a bike in a small circle for a couple of hours, yet you "can't see the point" of extending said ride by a few metres?
It really gets my goat, I often stop and block off straight cuts. Many corners slow riders down which they dont like, thing is they'll just go too fast into the next section, lock the anchors and eff it up even more, becoming double losers. Same as going round some roots or heaven forbid, a puddle, making the trail 5ft wide and then a 5ft wide mess all Winter and by next summer the nice original line will be lost.
So, to sum up the arguments for and against corner cutting:
Con:
Increases environmental impact by making bits of parallel trail.
Makes work for your local trail pixies.
Dumbs down harder trails.
Can undo design features put in for very good reasons (e.g. speed control where paths cross).
Looks crap.
Pro:
Avoids having to learn how to ride.
Necessary to maintain the illusion of personal autonomy.
Moves you from 22nd to 21st place on your local Strava leaderboard.
Some lovely corner cutting here.
I reckon they might even had got up to 19th on Strava 😀
I didn't say I straight-lined these sections, the erosion annoys me. But why has limited time, effort and resources been used to slightly wiggle the trail? I doubt anyone comes back and says those extra wiggles in the that short climb really made my ride. I'd have been quite happy to ride up a straight climb.You're going off to ride a bike in a small circle for a couple of hours, yet you "can't see the point" of extending said ride by a few metres?
Many corners slow riders down which they dont like, thing is they'll just go too fast into the next section, lock the anchors and eff it up even more, becoming double losers.
Speed control is important and forcing riders to slow down by using tighter corners seems to be the norm. I'm not condoning corner cutting for the sake of it, but not all trails are well designed and built. I've rode many examples when it simply wasn't necessary and just spoils the flow of a trail.
the rollie eye thingAvoids having to learn how to ride.
IanMunro - MemberSome lovely corner cutting here.
That's some gnarly, rad-to-the-max unnecessary grabbing of the brakes. I know that's a chairlift-accessible French DH track and they're always full of holes anyway, but if someone decided to emulate that on the steeps in my local woods, I'd be well annoyed.
From the first point corner cutting has been going on longer than strava, so has trying to be faster than your mates. Marin trail at one point had no identifiable corners at all in some sections.
A certain Dirt School DVD tells you to take "better lines" into corners.
In built trail the edges need to be built to stop it happening really, one guy mistimes and runs the corner, next guy follows new wheel tracks etc etc
I guess part of the problem is that in a normal "proper" race the "Tape it wide" ethos can be applied selectively by the organisers, with Strava where "every trail can be a race" at any time there is no selective taping or time allowed for the trail to recover or be maintained and thus any line the rider can imagine is pretty much fair game.
I suppose that was always the case before but maybe Strava has made the issue a little more pronounced in recent months with a larger number of people chasing KOM glory perhaps, I also think the novelty will be wearing off of strava by next winter for many probably...
Personally I like being able to choose my lines, but I also understand how a trail centre works, they are for all users not just a select few and as such will see a lot of traffic and need to be robust, they will suffer where a small percentage take shortcuts which can ultimately undermine armoured surfaces and constructed features.
The design of these trails needs to accomodate different levels of riding and confidence, not all of them manage to do this (not that it's a simple or easy task) and I think that can contribute to non-prescibed routes being taken by various riders for differing reasons, you'll never win this game at trail centres, where you have a wide spread of riders you will need a variety of trails and there will always be maintenance issues...
[i]forcing riders to slow down by using tighter corners seems to be the norm[/i]
Not on cheeky stuff, the trail goes where there is a path made by deer, squirrells, pr0n stash masters etc, gets ridden in, discovered by others, skidded and ridden when wet, straightlined, effed.
Railing a corner = awesome
Riding in a straight line = a bit boring
IMHO 😉
But why has limited time, effort and resources been used to slightly wiggle the trail? I doubt anyone comes back and says those extra wiggles in the that short climb really made my ride.
Probably hasnt been wiggled for your pleasure, more likely to prevent it becoming a fall line for water causing it to fail.
Is it just me, or were those 2 french guys utter knobs???
More wiggles = more riding.
Ride as fast as you can/want to but you should respect the trail.
Straigtening and cutting changes the whole character of a trail i.e. dumbing down. Environmental impact is also really important, especially in cheeky situations, some people don't seem to know or care that they are risking their playgrounds being closed to them. The best trails are less than 1 ft wide in my opinion.
mikewsmith - MemberA certain Dirt School DVD tells you to take "better lines" into corners.
I did their trail high school and I remember one section was 100% about how to cut corners. Mostly they're about interpreting the corner well and riding the best line through the trail that's there but I got a bit miffed when Andy started recommending to ride right off the tray, on GT blue of all places. Keep off the grass!
Railing a corner = awesome
Riding in a straight line = a bit boring
Totally agree.
I'd much rather zig zag through a forest than plough on straight ahead
Thank you seanodav, it really felt like some sections had been designed by someone with an ideological dislike of anything straight!
[i]Might I suggest that on artificial tracks it suggests that the line wasn't the best and the corner created for the sake of it.[/i]
Agree!
I haven't ridden at Bedgebury for years, but on the two occasions I did, all I remember was being constantly frustrated by how the trail wriggled about with no chance to flow. I never cut corners and follow the trail religious, but it annoyed me and some of the others we rode with.
It genuinely felt that when they built the trail, some guy had gone for a very wiggly walk through the forest with a line marking spray gun, shortly followed by a mini excavator.
It may have been improved since then, (it hadn't been built long) but certainly they had put corners in for the sake of it and made large sections of trail pretty rubbish to ride.
Flippin heck. Some massively up tight people on this thread. How are you meant to overtake anyone on single track without cutting corners? I guess your average trail centre rider likes to have all their decisions made for them and isn't into pinning it or racing their mates. Boring!
As for that video - its a DH track those guys are hitting the inside lines cos thats the racing line, where would you practice that if not on a DH track? Whats wrong with them cutting those turns to overtake slower riders without running them off the track? I've ridden that trail its awesome fun trying to get past your mates on the way down by cutting the corners.
I'm liking the comments about corners controlling speed. A good set of banked corners should allow the rider to create speed, railing a set of berms each one faster than the last until you eventually have to calm it down a bit is a privilege the corner cutters will not experience.
As it happens the corners just before the stair case on home baked fit this category. Lovely set of berms they are, and not a single petunia in sight.
From a discussion I had on another thread I learned (obvious really) that DH is about getting from top to bottom as fast as possible. For most other people it's about fun not timings.
I'd much rather zig zag through a forest than plough on straight ahead
You can do that on fire roads too. Just wobble from side to side a bit. 😀
It genuinely felt that when they built the trail, some guy had gone for a very
wiggly walk through the forest with a line marking spray gun, shortly followed by
a mini excavator.
That's exactly what did happen at Bedgebury! Since then a lot of time and effort has been spent in improving flow, sight lines etc. Some corners have been removed and others had berms added. It's a slow process with just volunteer labour and plenty of other things to do like adding trail features but we will get there!
Meantime cutting corners just ads to the list of things we have to repair taking time away from improvements.
Boris
Www.boarsonbikes.co.uk
scruff - Member
[i]forcing riders to slow down by using tighter corners seems to be the norm
[/i]
Not on cheeky stuff, the trail goes where there is a path made by deer, squirrells, pr0n stash masters etc, gets ridden in, discovered by others, skidded and ridden when wet, straightlined, effed.
I'm not familiar with the term 'cheeky', but i'm guessing you're referring to illegal or not designed/created by riders? We have plenty of that over here (Norn Iron), in fact almost all of it (there's only one small forest where it's not illegal to ride). Last year I spent a fair bit time altering a walking trail to make it suitable for bikes. You could ride it as it was, but it wasn't particularly fun. It is now, and walkers can still use the original line.
The best trails are less than 1 ft wide in my opinion.
Doesn't really allow for overtaking or more importantly, line choice. Natural trails like this generally turn into a rut over time. Causing water to run down compounding the issue. Eventually it can end up like a scalextric track. Not my idea of fun at all.
It genuinely felt that when they built the trail, some guy had gone for a very wiggly walk through the forest with a line marking spray gun, shortly followed by a mini excavator.
That's a lesson I learnt the hard way. What looks like a fun flowing trail at walking speed, can become a twisty, nadgery pain in the arse at riding speed.
I have an idea for a trail design that'll solve this conundrum
[img] 
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Sorted.