[Closed] Soo.. who else is switching from 2x10 back to 3x9 / 3x10??

Yeah, Njee, I know that would work but I love the stiffness of Saint cranks.
Could go Profile 3-pc with 5 bolt spider but IME they never run perfectly straight, aren't the best BB Design for muddy use and even with a Ti BB axle would be heavier.

Perhaps it would be easier to see the differences/similarities in ratios if we used a common accurate language to express these ratios?
After all 1x10 gives quite different final ratio spread to 3x9 depending on cassette/wheel selected.
I would gladly sit and post all the charts for you but I'm simply not that interested.

Fwiw: (yes I see the irony of this) 22/36:11-32 on a 26in wheel gives me the flexibility to ride everything so far, Trail, DH, Alps to local xc hacks (although I miss my 36:16 26in singlespeed since it was nicked)

AFAIAA 32x11 can get you to at least 25mph without crazy spinning. If you are doing more than that for longer than 5 minutes on a flat road on a MTB, maybe give Team GB a call

If you sit at >100rpm yes, you can. But a 36 means you've got something in reserve at a sensible pace. I want to get the road bits done as quickly as possible to get to the fun bits!

Do people still pedal downhill in the UK?

try a little research...here & here. then come back and we can all talk like grown ups.

Just did. The figure for the lowest gear in each is totally different, 16 compared to 19, comparing my old 26" 3x9 to my new 29" 2x10.

I heard also that when you go 29, you lose a gear. So a 34 at the back becomes more like a 32.

I think some of the differences between folks on this thread boil down to whether they race or not. Many trail riders don't really understand the obsessive gear dilemmas xc racers have.

It's a long time since I raced xc and had 3x8, which suited me just fine. I couldn't tell you what the ratios were, nor did I care - they were what came in the bike. Having said that I was always a mid-pack sport rider at best.

I now just trail ride with the occasional DH race: on the trail bike I have 2x9 & on the DH bike I have 1x9.

I simply don't get why everyone jumped on the 10 speed bandwagon so enthusiastically. I'm now on 9 speed because that's what my bike/groupset came with - it wasn't a conscious choice, I just bought what was available. I went 2x9 because I like the clearance a double and bash gives me.

seemingly every other day someone is selling their 9 speed gear setup because they've discovered that 10 speed is n% better. It's just not. Your brain and legs will adapt to whatever work and compromise you're asking them to make by having 1 less gear. It's marketing balls, and if you do some soul searching then you'll agree.

Yep i agree with that.

nikk - Member
I find carrying stuff up steep paths in the highlands, not only the gradient is hard, but also the surface is tricky. The added weight plus all day effort means you are far better and more efficient just walking it, rather than trying to crank and finesse a bike + kit over washed out, boggy, rocky, steep path.

Having ridden 44/32/22 11-32; 36/22 11-32; 36/22 11-34; 32/22 11-34; 32t 11-34; and 32t 11-36 in the last couple of years, I can extrapolate that 34t 11-42 (1x11) would be great! Just that bit more on the top and the bottom. And in an ideal world you'd be able to easily swap the front chainring, smaller for epic rides, long races or winter mud, bigger for shorter rides/races.

I heard also that when you go 29, you lose a gear.

It makes the gearing slightly taller, you don't lose a gear as such!

I can extrapolate that 34t 11-42 (1x11) would be great!

Oh well, Mr SRAM agrees with you!

You imagine wrong, as Ben Thomas managed just that! Kielder isn't representative of most racing anyway.

Oops, didn't realize that.

Certainly as far as the SRAM stuff is concerned you have a good choice of fronts as far as the produced ranges go; and you can put pretty much any 10 speed cassette you want out back.

The 'long' RD's will cover an 11-36 quite happily.

TBH; with 28/42 and 11-36 to play with, you're so close to having the range of a standard triple on 11-32 it's hardley worth getting the calculator out, carrying less metal and you've done away with the fudgery that is the middle ring shift on a triple. You've also improved your Q factor as you've actually got a genuine double crankset instead of taking your big ring off and sticking a bash on it, thereby missing out on the pedal spacing advantage.

I'm not sure I'd chuck a decent 3x9 or 2x9 away for 2x10; although it's a very tempting option if you'rebuilding or needed to renew anyway...

It was getting rid of the triple front shift and narrower pedal spacing that sid it for me.

I guess like everything else about bike set-up; it's personal.

There's lots of kit out there and no reason you need to use the same as everyone else!

Having been riding round the highlands towing a trailer full of two folks camping kit I certainly have a need for a 22 granny ring - I spent an hour or so in that on one climb alone.

22 / 34 granny is slightly quicker adn easier than walking for me. 36 / 11 top gear gives me 25+ mph - fast enough for me to pedal to offroad.

I like to ride up hills and am happy to freewheel when i spin out

I remember racing in the Pentlands in the 90's with a 22/34/48 setup and people were laughing at me before the race. The 22 was seen as a bairn's gear. This bairn's gear saw me ride past folk walking up the grassy slopes later in the race. Loved the 22t.

I have been using 1x9 11-32x33t for a while and recently went to 1x10 with a 11-36x32t and find myself spinning out easily on the flats with the 32t. I am crap at spinning but regardless of that problem.. I would benefit on rides with other folk pushing 42/32 10spd setup's if I had a 34t on it. However,I am not strong these days so I choose to go for the 32t up front with the 11-36t to help me elsewhere on the rides around here. The shifting on one side only with no extra rings/front mech etc sways me towards this combo more than the 3x9 or 3x10 route regardless of sorting out the problem of keeping up on the flat tracks/faster descents. It's not an issue if I'm not racing.

1x9 with 33t x 11-34t felt a good all rounder too but everyone's different so it's pretty meaningless to go spouting what is right or wrong unless we know power outputs etc. Having said all that,I do like the 3x10 on the 140mm travel bike. Jumping between 32 and 42 while roughly in the middle of the cassette is really nice.

Would never go back to 22/32/44. Not strong enough.

Do people still pedal downhill in the UK?

yep. that's why I have a 46x11 as a top gear.

I pedal uphill too, hence the 22x34.

I don't ride with folk using 1x10 or 2x10 as I get bored waiting for them.

The two 2x systems I've had personal dealings with shifted like crap on the front. One was an improv 9 spd system, the other a purpose built SRAM 10 spd set up. Both owners were happy but I would not have been.

yep. that's why I have a 46x11 as a top gear.

I don't ride with folk using 1x10 or 2x10 as I get bored waiting for them

🙄

Unless you are Nino Schurter you've just not found the right people. More to speed than gear ratios!

1/9 with a 32 chainring and a 11/34 cassette works well on my HT. it would not work on my FS because it climbs brilliantly seated but not that we'll standing. So I have 2/9 on that.

Dunno where you get your figures from TJ but 35mph+ is perfectly achievable with 36x11

reakon GW? On 26 inch wheels? - thats one heck of a cadence and well faster than I can spin I top out around 30 mph on 36 / 11 . In that case what speed is that chap above pedalling on his 44 / 11 top gear he needs?

we're not talking about spinning on the flat tho

36 x 11 @ 120RPM = 30.4mph

120RPM is pretty god damn fast pedal turnover speed. Not sustainable in my book except for short sprints.

I can hit 30+ mph on the MTB down hill on a top gear of 36 / 11 but have been told on here repentantly that that is impossible so put 25 to avoid arguments. FAIL! 🙂

138 cadence easily achievable....AWESOME

Aye and 120rpm isn't even that fast, BMX racers pedal their bikes to 35 on the flat hitting 170rpm.

What's your highest cadence Al?

I shall do some cadence testing on my commute...

dunno Gary, I am a spinner tho, and ride ss now and again, so I doubt it would be slow. Never had a meter for it. TBF 120-140 wouldn't be a problem.

No need Chief

138 cadence easily achievable....AWESOME

pedalling at 120 rpm gives over 35mph with a 26x2.4" tyre

On various bikes I have, 1x9, 2x9, 2x8 and s/s and what [b]really[/b] pisses me off is when I want to change set-up I can never find the right size/length chain in the spares box 😐

I'm not a pedaller at all, generally just use short bursts of sprinting to get upto speed and use the terrain and gradient to gain speed, I don't really even use my 11T sprocket off road and can still hit 35 on a descent.

You don't need a meter to measure cadence, there's this thing called 'counting'... 😉

Done that, it's how I know I'm a spinner. Never tested my max tho.

EDIT and GW my arithmetic was based on the 120rpm calc above. Can you show your workings please?

You do need a meter to measure max tho, I don't ever pedal for a full minute un-interupted unless I'm climbing, and there's no way I could sustain my absolute max for more than a few seconds.

Well there's also these other things called speedometers and arithmetic! 😉

I thought about this a bit last night when out riding: everyone is focussed on the extremes of what each Gearing setup can achieve but without any actual measured comparison of the gearing its meaningless, tossing about cadence figures means even less without context, so I worked up some quick and dirty tables:

[img] [/img]

They are roughly based on some of chainring/cassette sizes people have mentioned already, taking top and bottom sprocket sizes, from 'Standard' cassettes. I've also included the extremes of XX1 will offer, and struck through combinations which I believe users are unlikely to consider (but the value is still there if you are interested)...

one thing that lept out at me was the combination of a 24T Granny with a 36T sprocket (Dynasis 3x10 standard) Vs 22T Granny with a 32T sprocket (Arguably 3/2x9 Standard)... They're as near as damn it the same ratio, so it seems Shimano don't really think you need much easier gears even on 10 speed...

The top ring on a 'standard' triple or a GRRRR XC racers Double is 42T which is why I didn't bother going any higher; a ratio of 3.8 (producing 99 gear inches for 26" or 110 for 29") I've included 32/34/36/38 chainrings as these are all popular choices on both double, some triple and various single chainring setups...

Based on this I can tell that my own 22/36 x 11-32 gives me an overall range from 17.9 - 85.1 gear inches (26" Wheels). 1x10 would not allow me to reproduce this range, 2x10 could, infact it could be configured to give me slightly more top or bottom range if I really wanted...

For my own needs I tend to treat 2x9 more like [I]"1x9(+4)"[/I] in that I spend 95% of my time in the 36t; in that ring I can ride flat and DH trails, Climb a fair bit offroad and chug along at a comfortable enough pace on the road... I've tried a 32T and that doesn't quite supply the slightly higher range of gears I needed some of the time, by the same token a 42T massively over-guns it for me 99.5% of the time and would mean I spent more time futher up the cassette and/or switching between chainrings giving an extra 5 gear inches I don't think I would regularly use... The 22T granny ring gives me the +3 or 4 'bailout gears' (once you account for overlap) to spin my way up longer climbs or allow me to winch up steeper offroad stuff, that is all it really provides and I'm happy with that

of course range is only half the point, sensible, usable increments are more important than just producing a huge range of ratios IMO i.e. 24/38 + 11-36 would provide me a harder top gear and about the same bottom gear for climbing but I think I'd be using the granny slightly more often and might not make much use of that 38/11 ratio,
These are the sort of tradeoffs to consider...

XX1 is interesting; the range you get is of course very broad for 1Xn and that 10T sprocket makes a significant impact 32-10 gives you a gear not far short of 36-11, and a climbing gear close to 24-32 so could well suit slightly stronger riders and XC racers, it might not quite manage to deliver the range that many 2x9/10 riders want and certainly won't cover what a 3x10 rider gets at present, but that is as you would expect, If you already use 1x10 with 32T Chain ring and 11-36 Cassette then XX1 should extend top and bottom gearing by an apprecable amount...

could well suit slightly stronger riders and XC racers

Not many XC racers still running a 24-32 bottom gear, so XX1 will offer something lower. I think it's a bit of a shame they're not doing something slightly closer, 10-36 or 11-40 or sommat. I think the gaps will be really pronounced on the 10-42 block.

I didn't realise that XXI is 10-42 on the back - that's great! The biggest step in the gears is between the two smallest sprockets and that's only 20% so like changing your cadence from 100rpm to 83rpm. 420% gear range vs 327% for 11-36 1x10 or 505% for 36/22 11-34 2x10.

How do you know what the gaps are?

Either way, I notice the gaps on an 11-36 at times (although admittedly more on the road), and they're gonna be significantly wider on an 11-42, one extra gear would be nice, but I don't really feel the need for that much range.

Basically it's a way of getting folk who run a double onto a single, rather than catering for those who already run a single.

Surely the gaps on a 10-42 11sp are going to be almost identical to the gaps on a 11-36 10sp, since the main thing is it's gained an extra cog rather than rejigged it all to fit?

Either way... choose the ratios you want or tend to use.
2x10 and 3x9 give virtually identical range (just losing the equivalent of 44x11 for me, which I can live with). 1x10 doesn't replicate the ratios I want/need, so the arguments about simpler mechanicals are irrelevant.

njee20 - Member
How do you know what the gaps are?

You can usually roughly work it out based on logic with the aim being to keep the percentage jumps between gears approx the same across the range so you start off with 1 tooth jumps then increase to 2,3,4,etc as the sprockets get bigger.

Sprocket 10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 42
% change 20.0 16.7 14.3 12.5 16.7 14.3 16.7 14.3 12.5 16.7

So that sequence equates to a typical approx 15% jump per gear

How do you know what the gaps are?

Google! The SRAM XXI brochure says it's:

10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42

Posh PG1080/XX vs XX1

11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42

looks almost identical to me (although other SRAM cassettes differ slightly), so identical % difference apart from at the 2 ends.

Obv. the chainring may differ too, depending on preference.
How long before we get 12sp cassettes?

@ chiefgrooveguru - Do people really ride to Cadence like that on an MTB?

Cadence means very little on it's own, I mean are you expecting to constantly chop out 100+ RPM on a smooth or draggy surface? Climbing, on the flat or descending?

I was under the general impression that the 'Average' cyclist is most comfortable at about 70RPM (+/-10ish) for sustained periods of pedaling (Up, Down or along) and that you use the gears to make the work level comfortable, The only real exception being Lance who was on a road bike and Juiced to the eyeballs so doesn't count...

In much the same way you don't drive your car everywhere at 8000 RPM, you use the appropriate gearing to suit the work you are expecting the engine to do and keep the RPMs and energy use in a sensible range...

You are the engine on a bike, and reving the Nuts off your engine is far from ideal...

As for the Gaps on any given cassette My understanding was that you can't really have a step of more than 4 teeth between any two sprockets (that's the biggest gap I can recall seeing on any cassette) to in theory you could manage 10-42 in just 9 sprockets but the leaps would be so huge that you'd seldom be in anything like the gear you wanted, I think XX1 is probably profiled a bit like a sensible 8 speed range (say 11-28) with 2 big rings (almost equivalent to 2Xn bailout gears with a granny) on the top and one tiddler on the bottom to broaden it further...

As a 2Xn rider I can see the appeal of XX1 and if I were a shade fitter and alot richer I'd seriously consider buying it...

Edit:

that 36-42 is a 6T jump, that will feel big on the trail, definately more of a bailout geat than the next ratio in a nominal sequence...

Surely the gaps on a 10-42 11sp are going to be almost identical to the gaps on a 11-36 10sp, since the main thing is it's gained an extra cog rather than rejigged it all to fit?

It's not though is it, there's one extra cog, and they've added a sprocket in the bottom and 1.5 up top, ergo bigger gaps.

Either way... choose the ratios you want or tend to use.

They don't do 'em, that's what I'm saying! If XX1 came in something slightly narrower I'd possibly be getting quite excited, probably 11-40 so I didn't need a new freehub body, but they don't!

looks almost identical to me (although other SRAM cassettes differ slightly), so identical % difference apart from at the 2 ends.

Interesting, I'd assumed it would go 11-12-14 etc, that will mean a big jump to the 10, meaning it's a bit less usable, a proper downhill gear!