[Closed] Shimano 10sp double set up help please :o)

As you've bought a double specific front mech but are using a triple ring shifter, I'd guess that the problem is in the indexing

Stick yer old triple front mech back on and set the limit screws

Then buy a double specific front shifter and match it up to the new double front mech

Shifter and mech need to work together

Is its a double front crank and not a triple with a bash then its the shifter, the newer front shifters have a switch to change between double and triple,

Here's a pic of the cable routing round the mech
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8457869621_834b25358d_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8457869621_834b25358d_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/8457869621/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

That's the only way it fits. It's sitting nicely in the groove

It's the shifter, you need a newer one with the switch to work with a double front mech and cranks

switch to change between double and triple,

Yes, I know. 🙂 But does that alter the cable pull ratio or simply lock out the 3rd position?
I've changed a cable on one of those shifters and you can see a little thing pop out inside the shifter when you flick the switch, to stop the innards moving to the third position. Is that all it does? Does it change the cable pull ratio?

Stick yer old triple front mech back on and set the limit screws

Not possible without splitting a brand new chain, which I currently have no way of rejoining. Not gonna happen! Plus you're 'guessing' 🙂

I think it does change the ratio as well as locking out the third click, when you switch it a little cam type thing changes the pull inside...
The khanibrain has a vague memory of reading this somewhere..sometime.. in the distant past..
Maybe.. 😉

FWIW, I had a 3x10 SLX shifter on a 2x10 setup, no bother at all. That was an X7 front, though, so it's possible your front mech needs a different pull. It'd be a weird thing for Shimano to do though tbh.

I'm pretty sure that cable is wrong. My 2012 XT goes down the other side, under and into the clamp - has the circular bit got a groove around the back? I don't ever remember a cable going over the limit screws.

surely all the switch does is limit the movement and is not going to change the pull ratio.

Sounds more like you have a problem with the shifter and it's double shifting. I'd check the cable is correctly routed through the shifter.

cable route looks fine to me. moving it closer to the pivot would make the problem even worse.

It'd be a weird thing for Shimano to do though tbh.

My thoughts entirely.

I think it does change the ratio as well as locking out the third click

This is what we need to find out, but is what I was thinking as I posted this thread! 🙂

I'm pretty sure that cable is wrong. My 2012 XT goes down the other side, under and into the clamp - has the circular bit got a groove around the back? I don't ever remember a cable going over the limit screws.

The cable is lying in the slot. It LOOKS correct if you look at the techdocs. I'll spin it round 108 degrees and see.... hang on.....

Based on earlier stw posts I can now confidently guess that it's cable tension

I might be guessing again 🙂

The post in question said...

(Slacken the cable tension until it shifts easily onto the "middle" ring with the limit stop where it needs to be to stop overshifting. Then adjust the lower limit to stop it dropping off the inner ring.
It's OK to limit the travel at the bottom of the range short of where the shifter puts it, because you just end up with a slack cable, but if you limit travel at the top of the range short of where the shifter wants to put it you end up with an over-tight cable and the problem you describe, so you need to slacken the cable a bit

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/triple-shifter-with-double-chainset ]Guessing[/url]

try undoing the cable and check the shifter clicks up and down twice while you pull on the cable a bit.

LBS 😉

The cable routing looks right
[IMG] [/IMG]

This

states that the double shifter is specific as it pulls a different amount of cable,so you need a new shifter,sorry(read top left corner)
Ian

Have you the right number of spacers on the D/S BB?

The cable routing looks right

It is. I just tried it the other way, no difference at all. Cable routing is correct. I've fallen foul of this before, and I'm wise to it. 🙂

try undoing the cable and check the shifter clicks up and down twice while you pull on the cable a bit.

I'm shifting between positions 1 & 2 on the shifter. 100% definitely. Shifter is working perfectly.

Have you the right number of spacers on the D/S BB?

68mm shell, 2 spacers.
I'll check that though.

I think you'll need a newer type front shifter with a switch..
I think the problem is its a double specific mech and crank where the rings are sat in between where the rings on a triple crank are when fitted, the inner ring is more outboard and the outer ring is more inboard, if that makes sense..

Peter,read my post,and read the link,you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different.The first note in the general safety warnings box is quite clear,unless you have the switchable shifter you cannot get it to work.

you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different.

I'm reading it! 🙂
I can't see where it says that tough!

it does say

[i]The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.[/i]

Which is nothing to do with shifter cable pull ratio.

Or am I blind? Quite likely!

Cable is normally slack in granny gear, only tensioned in middle (and large if you have it) positions. Limit screws sort granny gear and cable tension sorts middle.

thejesmonddingo - Member
This

TECHDOCS.SHIMANO.COM "http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Deore-XT/SI_5MY0A/SI-5MY0A-001-00-Eng_v1_m56577569830746329.pdf"

states that the double shifter is specific as it pulls a different amount of cable,so you need a new shifter,sorry(read top left corner)
Ian

I've read it 5 times and I think it must be in a different language as I can't see that written anywhere.

Cable is normally slack in granny gear

Mate, do you have any idea how long I've been doing this? 🙂 I know...... But not THIS slack 🙂

The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.

I think that's it, in code, isn't it? 🙂

EDIT

I've read it 5 times and I think it must be in a different language as I can't see that written anywhere.

Thanks. Me neither!

pete, try setting it up to use positions 2 and 3 of the shifter and this will tell you if you have the correct pull ratio. Not sure if the shifter will release down to 1 without any tension on the cable anyway.

Yr Bk Is Srzn lols!

Nice 🙂

The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.

which points out the obvious that you can't use the double derailleur on the triple set up as the cage is the wrong profile.

How do you interpret"the shifting points will not match" ?Obviously English must not be my first language any longer,I must use Gibberish in future,but good luck with your quest.

I don't interpret that as pull ratio.

PP my 3x shifter works fine with my 2x mech but is has a full outer with only about 4cm exposed so may hide the baggy issue. Had a quick look and I get about 4mm cable length of slack.

My bad,I look forward to hearing you've got it sorted.

if you look inside a shifter I seriously doubt the little switch changes the pull ratio. The cable passes through the cam and to change the ratio it would need to move inwards or outwards.

Also if you read the instructions it states to flick the switch when in the middle position and not in the 1st position which indicates to me that it uses positions 2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

My 2x10 with 3x10 shift is exactly the same, i just leave the cable a bit baggy in the lower slot. At some point i'll buy a 2x10 shifter and it will all be good, for now, it works so it'll do!

Also if you read the instructions it states to flick the switch when in the middle position and not in the 1st position which indicates to me that it uses positions 2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

I've got an anthem running an xt double chain set with an slx front derailleur (double too) but slx triple shifter, and it works fine. I'm running it on the inner and middle indices, with the outer stopped out, fwiw, and it shifts fine. Took some perseverance to set up with no rub, and there is a tiny bit on one extreme, don't recall which,but easily bearable.

One thing I did recall though is the set up instructions are different to how I remember them. I know you've installed dozens of derailleurs, just check you followed the manual in case it does makes a difference.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/double-specific-chainset-wont-work-with-my-old-shifter-what-now

pete, try setting it up to use positions 2 and 3 of the shifter and this will tell you if you have the correct pull ratio.

Good call. 🙂

It works perfectly between 2 & 3. No slack, exacly right.

Drop back to 1 & 2 and it's all over the place again.

So, if my logic is right, that means that the 1-2 shift requires a bigger cable pull than the 2-3 shift.
And I KNOW that the XT shifters with the 2/3 position switch lock out position 1, as I've serviced one.

So that's it. The cable pull is correct, but I'm effectively using the middle and outer positions on the mech/chainrings, and that won't work in the granny/middle position on the shifter.

so this

you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different

Is sort of wrong, but sort of right at the same time 🙂

Well done chaps, thanks! 😀

2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

Crossed posts

Yes, correct. That's what I've just worked out. 🙂

Well,better half right than totally wrong,I'm glad you've got it working ok.

Bastards. Now I'm going to have to try it on 2&3 to see if it fixes the slight mech rub problem! Up till now has been good as it needed to be!

No I don't think it changes the ratio as such, i think it is more to do with slightly different total throw between 1-2 and 2-3. Possibly due to the change in pull angle relative to the FD pivot point.

ahh lots of posts while I was working out how to word my response to khanis post above.

So that did work. thought it would.

thejes - untwisted your knickers now? 😉 😀

No I don't think it changes the ratio as such, i think it is more to do with slightly different total throw between 1-2 and 2-3. Possibly due to the change in pull angle relative to the FD pivot point.

Yeah. Agreed. One way or the other anyway.

No I don't think it changes the ratio as such, i think it is more to do with slightly different total throw between 1-2 and 2-3. Possibly due to the change in pull angle relative to the FD pivot point.

You were on the right track. It was a team effort methinks. 🙂

Yes,I'm fine,haven't had a drink for a couple of weeks,and I get tetchy sometimes,sorry.

So, if my logic is right, that means that the 1-2 shift requires a bigger cable pull than the 2-3 shift.
And I KNOW that the XT shifters with the 2/3 position switch lock out position 1, as I've serviced one.

I think this is it. I am sure that 1-2 and 2-3 feel different when shifting on a triple. Will try it out later as I want to make a mk2 of my DIY combined XT brake and shifter mounts (only way I could get my reverb remote under the bars and everything in a nice position).

@thejes:

[img] [/img]

(we need that adding, it is useful)

It's been a very interesting thread, thanks everyone for your input. 🙂

I'm quite happy to use pos 2/3 if it saves me £65 on some new shifters. It works fine now.

I run 3x10 shifters on both bikes and noticed a lot of slack in the granny ring

Ignored it and it works ok - but will check the other solution mentioned above 🙂

Been fiddling, and I stick by what I said. 1 and 2 does work, but yep, I'll admit it - 2 and 3 works better!

2/3 is the way forward! been using this setup for a few months now on my 26/38, but just upgraded to a new shifter today which shifts SO much better and is much lighter in its actuation!

also HURRAH FOR ISPEC!!!

Interesting thread, and solved something I'd been wondering about for a while - what was the point of that 2/3 switch on the new 10 speed shifters, as once you'd wound in the limit screw in the mech it couldn't shift to the third position anyway. Now I know its because they want to force you to use the 2/3 position rather than the 1/2, but still don't understand why? Variable pull ratios in a front shifter... hmmmm...