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I'd like to see more females in cycling, I don't care
A)how they ride
B)what they wear
C)who tweets about it more than once
[quote=aracer ]BTW do we get to rehash the whole Maxxis Babes thing on this thread?Ok then
Knuckledraggers
Handwringers
Ad hom
Logical fallacy
In
Before
The
Lock
/endofthread
@OP
Am confused.
It's not *that* confusing, surely?
If marketing focuses solely on the macho aspect then that serves to exclude a swathe of the population and a large chunk of potential market (and, as Chris G notes, a chunk that's key to both growth and longevity).
But if a manufacturer's marketing generalises that same swathe as only being interested in (and, arguably, by implication only being capable of) pootling along, then it can also serve to exclude much of that same chunk, because it says that the market has prejudged them and will only cater for certain requirements.
So, whilst it may be true that some women (and, hell, men) are really only in it for little more than pootling, it's deeply patronising and prejudicial to define all women by that, whilst at the same time offering men the whole gamut of choice.
What's needed (and again, this is something picked up on by the article) is an approach that can encompass the universal benefits of mental and physical health, family time, and everything else; but at the same time acknowledge and support everyone's potential and everyone's goals, regardless of sex.
In the grand scheme of everything is it really that big a deal? These types of articles can make me cringe more than the offending piece of literature that it is out to publish its deflammatory remarks against. If you removed the media and the sexism lobbyists that constantly get on their high horses about the subject then I can bet the majority wouldn't be too fussed either way. Mountains out of molehills for the most point. Discriminating sex for the sake of sexism.
For me when I'm out on the bike it makes no odds who I'm out with. Men, Women, we're all the same. We're all Riders.
Glad someone summed up the Maxxis thread. That was one I really couldn't be bothered to even have a look at, such was the entire tedious predictability of how such a thing would run.
It's made clear in the article that it's put together by a journalism student, so take it easy on him.
I cringe when I remember some of my early attempts at feature writing.
As someone who doesn't read mtb mags, i like to ask are there really macho images in them?
but it's a bit like black people happily using the N word.
This gets me. I deal with colour as part of my job and they are [i]not[/i] black. Just like my skin isn't white (the lucky bit are a very light brown while the rest is a translucent bluey colour). Labeling people a colour they are not must be as 'ism' of some sort.
i like to ask are there really macho images in them?
I don't think the issues is whether they are Macho, it's the fact that women are largely excluded save for the purposes of being adornment for selling things.
I've a copy of Jan '16 What Mountain Bike here, and of 114 pages they are 2 articles that are aimed at women. It's a "Gear of the Year" edition, and whilst admittedly there isn't much 'soft' gear anyway, none of it is aimed at women, or the pack test (none are womens versions) or bikes...
I've a MBUK here as well, I doubt it'll be much different.
Edit, a column article about Hannah Barnes, no kit tested, no bikes tested, no images of women.
I think the point for me is that it's just lazy advertising aimed at the teenage gnarshreddes who might want to buy 661 pads.
Sad as impressionable kids don't see a problem with it.
Of course we all grew up peeping over the top of bars hoping the dry roasted dad just bought might reveal a nipple or at least a bit of sideboob, and it's not turned us into a bunch of grumpy old misogynists 😉
My twopence worth..
Novice women that I ride with aspire to be fast daring riders but lack confidence..
Is that because women my age, the target audience with the most disposable income, (children of the 70s and 80s) grew up in an era where sexual stereotypes were more strongly defined..
As a result they may have spent less time honing their cycling skills in the naturally competitive environment of an adolescent peer group, preferring to get themselves a boyfriend with a car..
The best way to build confidence in a novice rider is maybe to take the focus away from rad skills and just get them riding bikes initially..
Seems logical
The internet is stuffed full of socially inadequate people desperately trying to assert their dominance in this cosy safe anonymous new dimension though..
9/10 this seems to be expressed in the form of moral outrage amongst a certain demographic..
Gay as ****
There is a significant difference between the two though. It's not a great analogy, but it's a bit like black people happily using the N word. The thing is, the company was stereotyping, whilst the woman on the discussion wasn't.
It's not though is it,
She's complaining that mountain biking is portrayed as a macho thing to men. Which as a side might be insulting to some women, but it's also flying in the face of the witch hunt against the Chech bike company.
Personally I agree with her, 90% of the women I've met MTBing have erred on the side of endurance racing, days out in the hills etc rather than DH or dirtjumping.
There's some subtleties around the language that maybe could have been better in the advert, but that's probably just lost in translation, the core of the advert was probably in the right place. How are companies supposed to promote cycling to women if they're not allowed to act on what their market research tells them the average women want's form cycling?
It'd be like trying to market XC bikes to trail center stormtroopers, a quick visual survey would sugest that 90% of MTBing blokes would rather bumble round a waymarked route on a 150mm travel bike than get a map out and ride XC bikes. But we don't perceive adverts about the latest Camber/Stumpjumper/Enduro as sexist do we?
(There is also a likely psychological barrier to some men who might want to ride their bike in a chilled out way and not push their limits, but don't want to be seen as 'unmasculine' in the eyes of their peers)
I'm not sure it's just peers. I think it goes deeper than that.
I like to ride my bike, on my own, in nice places, away from the traffic. There are trails that I can't ride that I'd like to, so I'm interested in improving my skills in order to ride those trails comfortably. But comfortably is the key. I'm not interested in the adrenaline side of the sport. I've broken a few bones and it wasn't much fun. I don't enjoy scaring myself and don't want to spend my leisure time doing something I don't enjoy.
I'm comfortable with all that and ride on my own, so don't have to worry about what anybody else thinks. So, why do I still beat myself up if I walk down a section?
Bez - Member@OP
Am confused.
It's not *that* confusing, surely?
If marketing focuses solely on the macho aspect then that serves to exclude a swathe of the population and a large chunk of potential market (and, as Chris G notes, a chunk that's key to both growth and longevity).
But if a manufacturer's marketing generalises that same swathe as only being interested in (and, arguably, by implication only being capable of) pootling along, then it can also serve to exclude much of that same chunk, because it says that the market has prejudged them and will only cater for certain requirements.
So, whilst it may be true that some women (and, hell, men) are really only in it for little more than pootling, it's deeply patronising and prejudicial to define all women by that, whilst at the same time offering men the whole gamut of choice.
I agree advertisers need to be more inclusive in their advertising at whatever level they pitch at, but I don't think currently men are 'offered the whole gamut of choice'. By advertising to men only at the extreme end only (or at least as much as advertising says women only pootle) that is setting a standard for men to achieve and could be putting off just as many men who don't feel they are capable of that; this is the same as the widely criticised approach idealised adverts telling women how to 'look good'. Of course you could say that most men are bullish and would try anyway, but that's just as sexist a stereo-type as saying women are timid.
What's needed (and again, this is something picked up on by the article) is an approach that can encompass the universal benefits of mental and physical health, family time, and everything else; but at the same time acknowledge and support everyone's potential and everyone's goals, regardless of sex.
True. Making more of this centred approach (in amongst other levels/extremes ranges of our hobby) would be a good way to go. Obviously its not right for advertising everything, a DH bike is aimed at speed and adrenaline for example, but it is getting a more popular approach (i.e. it now leads to sales) through certain brands so that's good to see.
Off the top of my head Charge seem a good example, they sponsor a range of people not just a race team. Women and men doing range of riding. Their adverts/media does not just focus on shredding.
A lot of reference to the Czech brand and it caused some stink at the time, but wasn't the quote lifted from the intro to the women's recreational model and basically a word for word repeat of the info to the men's equivalent but with 'women' inserted in? It was clumsy and jarring taken out of context, from memory STW did a follow up with them that explained it, so it's a little disappointing they're trawling it up as an example of sexism.
The other thing here is women seeing something that 'they' don't agree with (colours, sizing, marketing text, etc) and calling it sexism. Not wanting to pick specifically but Vickypea has an issue with pinks and purples, Mrs hoppy likes purple and will purchase that in preference, it's hardly like men get a wide choice in colour, typically we get black, one of blue or red and enduro neon. Mrs hoppys issue is the lack of kit in her size so where men's runs from xs to xxxl women's is often run only over s to xl and cut on a different shape to her. Both of these are issues for them but I'm not sure they're indicative of sexism just companies selling in sizes and colours they'll sell in suitable quantities to make it worth their while. Yes it can become a self fulfilling prophecy but there are smaller, nicher companies doing non mainstream that will fill those gaps.
Is there a problem with sexism in MTB, maybe but in my experience it sits within the mainstream media/companies rather than the riders and therefore the concept of the article seems to be a bit odd to have a mainstream media outlet telling the riders about an issue that they should be dealing with.
Here's another thing..
I find videos of red bull rampage and youfs hooning around BC railing berms and sending it dull as ditchwater..
I'd much rather watch the sweaty northerners cos that's the kind of riding that I identify with
OK my two pence...
These Twitterstorm advertising gaffes are pretty much outliers and MTBing doesn't have a notable problem with sexism that I can see.
I see a growing number of women on the trails and an inclusive attitude towards them.
One of the UK MTB mags has taken on a female staff writer recently, showing that young women are equally as willing as men to work for peanuts and free parts in order to live the MTB dream.
Set against all that evidence, all the other creative options start to look like a bit of a risk.
Risk? In an "extreme" sport? What were the thinking.
Saw this .... Surfer 'not pretty enough to sponsor'...
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features/magazine-35663889/35663889 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features/magazine-35663889/35663889[/url]
Really good article about parallels with gaming on the front page just now
I'm not just trying to be contrary here, but gaming is hardly comparable to MTB is it? The games industry looks massively more sexist to me even as a casual observer - institutionally sexist probably.
I consider myself more right-on than most, but I'm struggling a bit to stay with Singletrack and its recent tubthumping on this subject.
Current article on the parallels between gaming and cycling I thought was very good.
However even as a fully fledged lentil knitting Guardianista I did think the Jeffsy "sexism" outrage was a bit far
I don't get this at all, I've read the whole thread, from what I can see folk aren't happy objectifying females in advertising? Although it is arcaic and on the decline some still think that it sells particularly when targeting a certain audience. Then one forum contributor Vickypea is demanding equality on bikes and clothing?
Car manufacturers target a specific audience, I wouldn't drive my wife's car round on a daily basis as its a girly car, does this make me sexist? Like wise when she bought a new MTB a few years ago she wanted a female specific design a female seat and female specific clothing, she wanted Pink grips and even bought Troy Lee gloves in pink with sparkly diamonds on, if that's not targeting a specific audience then I don't know what is.
She wanted girly clothes and wouldn't give two hoots about its colour she's more interested in fit, form, function, too short or too big wrong fit. She even bought a bike with a girlie name, Two wholly different customers from a specific discipline wanted two very different outcomes.
There's no wonder the advertisers don't know what to do,
I thought Pink didn't generalise a specific genre these days, Pink is often used on the Pro road cycling circuit and I'm not sure they moan about looking like a girl, look at the new FOX racing clobber, cerise Pink and electric blues and greens which I thought were a hark back to the 80's fashion of tight curly perms and big shoulder pads, if you don't want FOX clothing with Pink on then don't buy it, buy a generic bike Unisex it was called when I was at school.
I see advertising but only take notice of the ones that are relating to me I ignore the rest.
I'd say that sexism is a problem in mountain biking but I can't quite understand why Singletrack has chosen to rally against it so much in the last few months. It's been relentless enough that it is perhaps diluting what it's trying to do, lessening the impact.
I appreciate that it is an important issue but is Singletrack the place to tackle it? I can understand it tackling trail access rights etc but sexism in sport is an issue that goes well beyond cycling and there are already organisations taking that on.
I'd say that sexism is a problem in mountain biking but I can't quite understand why Singletrack has chosen to rally against it so much in the last few months. It's been relentless enough that it is perhaps diluting what it's trying to do, lessening the impact.I appreciate that it is an important issue but is Singletrack the place to tackle it? I can understand it tackling trail access rights etc but sexism in sport is an issue that goes well beyond cycling and there are already organisations taking that on.
Clickbait, they [s]write[/s][i]jump on band wagons and regurgitate press releases into[/i] articles that generate clicks and sell advertising.
I wouldn't drive my wife's car round on a daily basis as its a girly car
What's a girly car? Is it pink, with a rampant rabbit permanently attached to the drivers seat?
I agree MB, I'd prefer to tackle it out on the trail,
Last year riding langsett to ladybower we bumped into two female cyclists at the Jctn to North America. Shit bikes, Inproper attire no food not enough fluid. The girls or in fact women asked how far it was to the cafe, we explained then mentioned carry on or turn back, they carried on we waved them good bye and off we went, We did ladybower onto hag farm cross 57 up to Roman road back round and down fed at the cafe back along the res pushed up rode the flags and got to the top where the bogs are WHERE we met the same two girls, who didn't find the cafe who had no food no water her trainer had split and her feet were hurting they were in a sorry state. We gave them fluid from our camel back and she wasn't bothered about germs etc, I taped her footwear up with some carpet tape from my pack, I gave her some energy gel and some flap jack. We did the old told you so and had a laugh,
**** me 5 or 6 weeks later the EXACT same couple were staying at Cair Gwyn at CYB the same weekend as us, they were well chuffed, Quite nice really as they said had they not bumped back into us they would have never bothered again, the fact that they did had resulted in them spending large amounts of money on biking kit and bikes and were a lot more prepared for the great outdoors, I'm not sure what I'm actually getting at. Except that WE as bikers do what we do for others as we know how to conduct ourselves.
At the top flight of cycling I don't think there's much difference in respect for both sexes, I for one am totally in awe of Laura Trott, her parents must be so proud and her Mum was her inspiration.
We need to spread the word at our level and let others get on with the other shit, just ride and enjoy yourself and don't worry about stupid advertising campaigns because all it goes To highlight is that they don't actually know what we want or need.
Just ride
The article reads to me like an article solely about sexism in video games, but then someone thought if they stuck a couple of mixed paragraphs in at the end comparing it to sexism in mountain biking they could whack the article up on a mountain bike website too.
The next articles should perhaps be:
sexism at motorbike/car shows & sexism in mountain biking
sexism in F1 and sexism in mountain biking
sexism when buying a car & sexism in mountain biking
sexism in mainstream R&B/pop music & sexism in mountain biking
relentless? weve had maybe 4 articles out of a couple of hundred thatve made the stw front page in that time
Its a bid sad to try and accuse stw of throwing out clickbait (any more than any other website) when they want more facebook followers, they go on the forum and ask 😉
STW towers seems to have some women working there, and its nice that they address the issues around being a female mtber in a male dominated industry
lets be honest most of the forum chat is blokey blustering
without wishing to get start an argument
why do some men seem to get so wound up whenever sexism is mentioned?
Theres plenty of road biking and football or fatbikes threads on here I just dont read them as im not interested
@boardinbob, why would it have a rampant rabbit on the drivers seat?
It's a Beetle with a flower in a vase on the dashboard,
Gotta laugh at you kimbers, you're one of the worst for posting sleazy pics. Sexism is right here on the Forum, go you. 🙄
my last sleazy pic was of a Ryan Reynolds being shagged by a strapon for international womens day, thats equality!
I did post a pic of a woman sliding on her bum in fgf last week that was quite sleazy/sexist, so apologies for that, if there are any others please point then out
I haven't noticed his smut-peddling antics, but I'll take your word for it CG.
Kimbers pictured yesterday...
[img] 
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I think we should be more concerned about the way that it still seems widely acceptable to call xc riders and xc riding "gay"
I think we should be more concerned about the way that it still seems widely acceptable to call xc riders and xc riding "gay"
Someone from here described 29ers as "gay" on Pinkbike. When I and others called him on it he claimed it's not homophobic. In his world the term "gay" means "girly" or "unimpressive" 😯
I get that. But using girl and gay derogatively, even when not actively meaning to be sexist or homophobic, has to do more harm than some obscure blurb from Eastern Europe or slightly suggestive pads ad. All these articles seem to be competing to be more and more right on while ignoring the fact that a significant percentage of mountain bikers are openly sexist and homophobic.
Can't believe I'm getting political on the internet. And on a bike site. Sorry.
I don't think people would get away with calling someone on here gay, but I have seen it on pinkbike/ Facebook cycling groups
Despite being an apparent sleaze monger I have even called people on it!