[Closed] Salsa component price increases

Because Brexit.

Everything imported, especially anything involving USD will be going up, if it hasn't done already. Simple exchange rate economics 🙁

£ < $

Blame the refugees

Does anyone know why the prices of Salsa components have gone up quite so much recently?

Have you been in a coma for the last 3 months?

Marathons are called Snickers now 🙂

Not just Brexit, new UK distributor for 2016. Prices went up quite a bit (and they were already high). Its no wonder you dont see them very much now, has anyone seen an LBS with 2016/17 Salsa bikes on display?

Simply a result of the falling pound. Unless goods have been bought at a previous exhange rate then you are going to be looking at a 10-20% increase. Not sure when the pound was last this low against the dollar. Here's the twelve month data

Dollar: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/12/twelve_month.stm

Euro: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/13/twelve_month.stm

I wonder what happened in late June?

Salsas have always been pricey. When they got the new distributor they got even pricier. Now exchange rates.

Even as a Salsa owner I'd say they're not worth the money.

Definitely a pre-Brexit thing, Salsa prices seemed to be £ = 2 x $ 😯 😥

Shame, the new Vaya looks lovely.

Big list price but Salsas always seem(ed) to have big discounts end of season whereas surly seem more steady and less model year driven.

Have you been on the moon OP? Pound has been falling for months because of fear of brexit before it then fell even more because of actual brexit. We have dragged the euro down with us apparently and international finance types have been Buying dollars.

First they came for the marmite, then the salsas. Next year it will be iPhones, cars, clothes, diesel...

I just hadn't noticed quite such huge changes on other brands etc and wondered if there was something specific to do with Salsa.

Did Ison not having something to do with importing Salsa? I remember Billy's knocking out stupidly cheap horsethiefs and Spearfish frames then they went crazy expensive after the distributor changed. Its a shame as its all really good stuff, my spearfish was mega quick.

Not a chance I'd buy one now though...

It was Ison but it was always an uneasy relationship. It seemed QBP would redirect stock to the US market even when Ison were promised shipments. Any ETA dates on the Ison B2B site could only ever be regarded as speculative. I'd hoped the move to Raleigh would improve things but I guess there's little can be done about exchange rates.

had a couple of salsa stems in the past.....very basic imho.
I would rather pay a bit more for a nice Thomson stem.

It was Ison, but Raleigh took over last year IIRC. Some of the stuff was silly prices anyway e.g. Maxle alternators

When I had an El Mariachi I looked at the cost of a Ti one. Frame only was around 1,600 - and it went up the following year. A full custom Ti frame can be had from someone like Burls or Pact for £1,100.

Woodsmoke ugly tax

It was Ison, then it was D.I.Y for a while before Raleigh took over. Raleigh don't seem to be pushing the brand that hard.

As an aside is comparing and El Mar and the others totally fair? Do you get butted/formed tubing, adjustable dropouts, etc for £1100?

Not that I'm suggesting Salsa have ever been bargains!

Woodsmoke ugly tax

History lesson:
Was ison
Then I looked after them, no distributor, but buying direct from salsa.
Raleigh now have them, and whilst it may look more expensive, some things are now coming down. It's all about cunning shipping and supply chain and avoiding unnecessary costs. And if you want a 2016 frame, ask me, we can find deals... 01929 475833, just tell me what model and size, and I will get back to you with a great price.

The components have jumped up, but this stuff is being paid for in USD, and it's gone from $1.60 to $1.20 over a couple of years. And most of that is since the referendum was announced, and then the results, and then drops again after May's hard brexit speech.

This is going to be a massive issue for the bike trade and bike buying folk. Thanks specifically to brexit, everything is costing a lot more. Folk need to wake up and look at where there money is going. cigarettes , wine, petrol, food, MARMITE, clothing, vehicles, bikes, even components made in the uk use imported alloy... its all going to cost more.

A local chef moaned yesterday "just been fleeced at the corner shop, packet of tabaco has gone up £3"... you are not being fleeced, you are paying the same going rate (in the country where it's made).

So your LBS, and all the other companies in the bike trade now have to sell kit that is 20% more expensive in a world where people have less money.

I roughly reckon if you take home £2,000 a month you might get £150 left over for beer and bikes (after mortgage, rent, finance, food, kids etc). Well that £150 is going to be taken by the increase in food petrol etc.

Wait til VW pass on the new euro exchange rate. A £36,000 vw Komi van pre-brexit, is now costing almost £46,000 if you apply the current exchange rate (Was 1.4 euro, now 1.1 euro). Will we have to add an import duty to that in two years, 10%, a £50,000 van? Its going to be a super tough time to be a car salesman.

You may start to see brands disappearing from the uk market, or dramatically downsizing what they offer... as product ranges become less viable, and we are all fighting over consumers with less money. Already this week I have seen one brand go because the new exchange rate means the product will be just too expensive. Some companies would rather sell nothing right now, rather than have product they can't sell. Being out of stock is efficient compared to having money tied up in unviable stock that won't sell. Triumph have a new motorbike, just launched it, but with no published prices or ETA?

And then you have the uncertainty. No one is investing, most companies are holding back, recruitment and new project plans are being put on hold whilst this mess settles. A few companies are leaving the UK. job losses have started.

And that is a very long way of saying... they are great bars, buy them, before they go up again.

Already this week I have seen one brand go because the new exchange rate means the product will be just too expensive

Which brand, if you can say?

How much would Reynolds in Birmingham charge me for a 631 tubeset dimensioned to a Fargo as a 'raw material for framebuilding to a mid sized company in the UK?

The rise in costs of the raw materials to Reynolds, still in absolute terms to me is manageable for the final product price because the greatest added value hasn't been added yet.

If we take recent events to their conclusion, and we are lucky enough to have the greatest worldwide steel tube manufacturer in our country, will Cotic, Stanton, Stooge look at building frames here?

Not sure Cy would want to go down that route again. 😯

Not sure Cy would want to go down that route again.

Never 100% clear what went wrong there...

The rise in costs of the raw materials to Reynolds, still in absolute terms to me is manageable for the final product price because the greatest added value hasn't been added yet.

This is indeed true - the tubes on your bike comprise a very small proportion of the cost.

If we take recent events to their conclusion, and we are lucky enough to have the greatest worldwide steel tube manufacturer in our country, will Cotic, Stanton, Stooge look at building frames here?

We only have the brand here - the tubes still come from China in the main part. Either way, the cost of manufacture in the UK is still high relative to Taiwan, even with the currency swing. The saving grace for small bike companies that assemble in the UK may be the imposition of EU trade tariffs. If you assemble in the UK already you're already paying import duty on almost everything you use, but the imposition of tariffs on products coming from the EU would seriously dent the value of bikes like Canyon and YT, which would be a good thing for companies not reliant on EU sales to support their business.

As Charlie says though the big issue is that everyone is likely to get a lot poorer post-brexit, at least in the mid term as we can't just turn off our importation pipeline, and all that stuff will get much more expensive sucking money out of our economy and sending it overseas, so that will hurt a lot of shops and companies of all types. I'd expect to see quite a few go over the coming years.

The other notable effect may be the dimishing amount of Shimano you see on bikes in the mid term, the yen strengthening has made Shimano quite expensive now. Very expensive against the pound, but 10% or so up even against the dollar, which will make alot of bike companies think twice about whether that next model will be SRAM or Shimano equipped.

Whatever the pricing policy of Salsa, combined with Brexit et al, a 2017 Fargo frameset is now to cost me £950.

I'd imagine a Reynolds tubeset (and they still make tubes in Birmingham) lets say 631, I reckon must cost £50-£100 ballpark.

At what point is someone in the UK going to start welding these together, with the same geometry, lets say £300 for labour plus VAT, lets say ballpark £450 and have a business..in the Fargo's case a simpler bike than the 2017 without boost, able to run a triple and normal 2.2-4 29 tyres is still all it needs. Still import a cheap £60 carbon chinese fork.

I take it you've not run a frame building business?

No, but I do have my own business. The person starting the business needs to be a young framebuilder doing it in his garage with no overhead.

How many hours does it take to weld a frame to a standard dimension, not a custom job, when you've geared up and say going to do an identical batch run. Ballpark?

say £300 for labour plus VAT

[quote=milfordvet ]How much would Reynolds in Birmingham charge me for a 631 tubeset dimensioned to a Fargo as a 'raw material for framebuilding to a mid sized company in the UK?
The rise in costs of the raw materials to Reynolds, still in absolute terms to me is manageable for the final product price because the greatest added value hasn't been added yet.
If we take recent events to their conclusion, and we are lucky enough to have the greatest worldwide steel tube manufacturer in our country, will Cotic, Stanton, Stooge look at building frames here?
Have you looked at what other steel frame makers are doing - like Shand? I'm sure he'd be happy to put together a Fargo-alike frame for you.

What prices are in made steel frames?

£400+vat?

Erm...

Tubing prices on Colombus tubing at ceeway is about £150. 631 would be more I guess?

How much these small builders in a shed charge shows what it would cost. Can't imagine you'd get anyone decent for under £7-800.

£50 for a tubeset in the UK? Hahaha! Only if you were making thousands of frames. For a one-off that wouldn't buy you 2 quality main tubes.

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I was looking at the ragley bigwig at Chain reaction and see the rrp is up a hundred quid to £549! £100 increase. That's mental but I'm resigned to it being the norm

"At what point is someone in the UK going to start welding these together, with the same geometry, lets say £300 for labour plus VAT, lets say ballpark £450 and have a business..in the Fargo's case a simpler bike than the 2017 without boost, able to run a triple and normal 2.2-4 29 tyres is still all it needs. Still import a cheap £60 carbon chinese fork"

How would you compete with on one and the £199 fluctuating price of an inbred?

[quote=damascus ]How would you compete with on one and the £199 fluctuating price of an inbred?Let the customer service department make outgoing calls?

The Shand Driver is their Fargo copy, steel frame/ carbon fork and they've price matched it to £980 for the frameset.

Scotroutes, good point!

Px customer service and quality issues aside I think I'd rather deal with px rather than some spoty kid in a shed who may or may not have insurance.

[quote=milfordvet ]The Shand Driver is their Fargo copy, steel frame/ carbon fork and they've price matched it to £980 for the frameset.
That extra £30 is just for the effort of applying the Shand decals over the Salsa ones (allegedly).

At what point is someone in the UK going to start welding these together, with the same geometry, lets say £300 for labour plus VAT, lets say ballpark £450 and have a business

Except that's not a business.

Where's the money to pay rent, heating, consumables, tool depreciation, contents insurance, goods-in-transit insurance, product liability insurance, public liability, paint, shipping costs, shipping boxes, packaging, NI/PAYE, warranty, advertising, marketing, office costs, accountancy costs... see where I'm going with this?

Mr Shand,

How much is the raw tubing frame cost from someone like Reynolds or Columbus for the frame not fork part?

How many hours is it for cutting and welding etc before paint, if your doing a batch of medium Drovers?

Genuinely I'm ignorant of this. Furnish me with some ballparks...

Where's the money to pay rent, heating, consumables, tool depreciation, contents insurance, goods-in-transit insurance, product liability insurance, public liability, paint, shipping costs, shipping boxes, packaging, NI/PAYE, warranty, advertising, marketing, office costs, accountancy costs... see where I'm going with this?

lot of eu-based companies are already selling cheap quality frames and components, where they fall short is (not) listening the market

It's been years since Fargo is selling like hot cakes despite high prices... last year the frames went sold out before the season even begun!
And what is planet-x offering on the same segment? nothing!!! They're still offering Inbred with an outdated geometry.

A inbred frame is sold at 200£... the cost of the same amount of steel with a (proper) adventure geometry can't be far from that.

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

Generally loving the shand bikes apart from the kinked downtube.

Assuming you're right thats many times the cost of doing it in Taiwan, and not because the Taiwan welding and finishing is inferior, I'd wager its probably better

But they don't need to bother with minimum wage, statutory sick pay, NI and all that guff.

While another thread carps on about the gig economy and how terrible it is for the folk doing it, when an entire country does it so you can get a cheap frame it's a bargin!

At what point is someone in the UK going to start welding these together, with the same geometry, lets say £300 for labour plus VAT, lets say ballpark £450 and have a business.

Go on, do it then 😀

If it was really that simple, don't you think someone in the UK would be doing it?

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

Surly and Salsa, who I'm sure you know are owned by the same company, aren't really competing with companies like Shand or even companies like Cotic or Stanton (I'm speaking about supplying quality steel frames, rather than the intended use of the frame).

Salsa are a big bike brand who are part of a much bigger company who sell massive numbers of frames and parts all over the world. Economies of scale aside, they make their products in countries that pay lower wages than the U.K. They also have the advantage of buying their raw materials in the same currency that they sell their finished products and that currency happens to the the currency of their largest market. (though if exchange rates move it may make their products harder to sell in some countries). They don't own the equipment used to make their products or employ the people who make them and that equipment and those people make bike bits for other companies or brands.

I'm forgetting what point I'm trying to make but:

comparing the price of an inbred with a Fargo is like comparing something that is cheaply made from a 10 year old design to something modern and of a higher quality.

Comparing salsa with a small British frame builder is unfair to the small British builder. Salsa and surly do a great job of giving the impression that they are small scale, but they aren't and I can't help thinking part of the price they charge is for that image. They do design good bikes that are mass produced by third parties and make more money from each frame than an independent builder in the U.K.

Perhaps frames could be made more cheaply in the U.K., but I can't see how. Are salsa and surly overpriced? Probably. A cheaper, comparable alternative to the bike you are looking for from Salsa may be available from Genesis.

It seems discounted 2016 bikes and frames are as good as we are gonna get for a long time, 2017 rrp all heading up. I've just bitten the bullet and ordered a frame I've lusted after for a long time on sale from ctbm (not salsa) as it felt like it was now or it would forever be too expensive ... Anyway that's the excuse I gave the mrs

as famously said a rise in tariffs and a collapse in the pound will lead to the new British Industrial revolution where we teach 10 year olds to weld frames we still can't afford...

A cheaper, comparable alternative to the bike you are looking for from Salsa may be available from Genesis.

Have you seen the price of a Datum frame? Gone up from £999 to £1500 for 2017... 🙁

Comparing salsa with a small British frame builder is unfair to the small British builder.

I don't disagree on the economies, but something I like about Salsa (and Cannondale, to a lesser extent) is how quickly they'll change models, change model lines, come up with wacky new stuff, etc. etc. In some ways they act like a smaller company in that respect. There must be costs associated with that.

Surly steel frames are about £500.
Spa and Genesis about the same, maybe a smidge less, often with more expensive tubing.

Salsa about £1000.
Made in the same place, from the same material, by the same people as Surly frames.

If the others can do it, so can Salsa.

I've never heard a believable explanation of why Salsa frames are pricier.
Same with Santa Cruz.

The only explanation is snob tax.

Same with Santa Cruz.
The only explanation is snob tax.

At the risk of going off topic, who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

Santa Cruz are pretty much a mainstream MTB brand in the States, with prices that have always reflected that.

How is the 'quality' of a Salsa frame any different from that of a Surly, Spa, Genesis etc?

who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

So why are the Salsa frames more expensive than the Surly frames?

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

They listen to a tiny market. How many Fargos do you see out and about? I don't think I've seen one in the real world, though plenty in photos on here. The market for that sort of bike is niche, while there are loads of Inbreds around and they cater for a wide spectrum of riders.

Even if On-one did decide to sell a Taiwanese built frame direct to the consumer to the spec of the Fargo, unless it was plucked from a factory catalogue it would have to cost more than an Inbred to cover the same level of R&D as any other frame for significantly fewer sales. And probably fewer again, since the sort of people that buy this sort of frame tend to want to be part of a 'scene' and on something a bit nicer than an On-one. Let's call it £350, a reasonable mark up over the Inbred, a frame that's had all its R&D done and paid for years ago and shifts in high volumes.

Then build it in the UK, covering all the extra costs of increased labour, increased rent, increased tax. And you think you can do all that for the same price? That's living on another planet.

So why are the Salsa frames more expensive than the Surly frames?

because they use second hand scaffold pipes for the surlys !! 😀

From the many I've seen I'd say that Salsa tend to have fancier tubing and are better finished than the Surlys. As an example, Salsa decals are under a clear coat. Surlys are often stuck onto the paint (can be an advantage if you want to buy some).

I can't say whether or not that's worth the additional cost, but I'd agree that Salsa seem very over-priced given you could buy a one-off full custom frame for the same or less.

If you use a estimated 6 hours of labour at £50, plus £100 for materials it's not unreasonable for a UK-made frame to cost £400, add 35% margin plus 20% VAT and you get a selling price of £770 for direct sales and £1150 retail - if anyone thinks they can make frames in the UK and sell them for less than £500, dream-on!

True about the lacquer, but it's not £500 worth!

They're both cro-mo with a bloody silly name.
If they were anything fancier, they'd tell you.

As to the detailing, I'm not sure.
Surly frames seem to be simple, but often have a lot going on at second glance - lots of flared and manipulated tubes, nice detailing.

I have no problem with Snob Tax btw, if people wish to pay extra to own a certain brand, fine.
We all do it to some extent.
Just be honest about it.

Agree with you on the custom thing.
No idea why people pay more for an otp frame than they would for a custom one.

At the risk of going off topic, who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

Just spotted that - in the US they're priced the same as Specialized and Giant. They don't give favourable rates to Jungle to import them, however, so over here they're much more and it's been a triumph of marketing on Jungle's part to get them to be compared to Ibis and Yeti (who are, arguably, marketing triumphs themselves).

Big fan of both Surly and Salsa. I like the purpose like nature of Surly, and Salsa are a bit more refined. My take on the QBP marketing strategy is:

Surly if you like to go slow
Salsa if you like to go fast
All City if you are just too Hipsta'

They are expensive, especially compared to the likes of Genesis but are better thought out than Genesis - even though that gap is closing. Also a lot of the innovations in recent years have come from Surly and Salsa;
- fat bikes for the masses
- 3 bolt enabler cages for bike packing
- Off road drop bars
- 29er plus
- 29er plus drop bar
- urban single speeds
- alternator style drop outs
- Single speed option on adventure bikes as standard

They listen to a tiny market. How many Fargos do you see out and about? I don't think I've seen one in the real world, though plenty in photos on here. The market for that sort of bike is niche, while there are loads of Inbreds around and they cater for a wide spectrum of riders.

On-one makes a dozen of steel frames, no one is really adventure-oriented in the way Salsa is.
Just make one more and see what happens, how bad can it be? Genesis tried that way, and the Vagabond went sold out in June (despite offering the frame in purple and white...).

If they can make a 200£ steel frame (Inbred) what would be the cost for the same frame with a shorter reach and a lower BB?
I don't think you have to R&D a lot, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, just make a copy and use your brand to sell at the right price.

[quote=ciquta ]It may be a niche but it's the most succesful niche. How many bikes went sold out in april?How many do you think they made?

Difficult for us gauge in the Uk because of the distribution issues with Salsa in the last few years

How many bikes went sold out in april?

How many were available? If they made 2,000 for the year (numbers based on another niche bike, the Trek Farley) for the whole world then that's not such a big deal. Compare this with 10,000 for the 2015 Cannondale Flash, for example, and all the other normal hardtails out there and you realise that it's a drop in the ocean. Selling out of a fifth of the number of available bicycles of something at a similar price point isn't such a big deal.

How many do you think they made?

I know they sold them all at full price early in the season while onone is still struggling to get rid of its jewels for 200£...

It's not about the brand, whistles and bells... they really do things others can't even understand.

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

eh? I was responding to someone saying that they could bash out a steel hardtail for £450 and have a business. I was illustrating why they couldn't.

And you're right, QBP do listen to the market, they have a massive network of dealers who tell them what sells and what doesn't. And that's why'll run out of Fargos, because hardly anyone wants them, it's too high risk (niche). They'll bring some in and sell out what they have. Job done. They don't have an unlimited pot of cash for this stuff so they'll be maximising the return on their investment as much as they can.

The Shand Drove isn't right. You need to get rid of that road PF bottom bracket, and put a standard one in, you need to put mounts on that carbon fork to make it at least look more custom that I'm getting something more than a £60 decalled and lackered chinese one, the 58 size one needs another inch of stack height and you need to tell me that it can take a triple. I am your market, we've got/ had 4 Fargo's in the family plus several other Surly and Salsa fat and road bikes. To buy your frame it needs to be better or cheaper than a Fargo, and at the minute I see it as neither.

The Shand Driver is their Fargo copy, steel frame/ carbon fork and they've price matched it to £980 for the frameset.

It's the Drove, (not Driver), it isn't a copy and we didn't price match it. Other than that. you're spot on.

The Shand Drove isn't right.

Yes it is.

You need to get rid of that road PF bottom bracket, and put a standard one in

No we don't. It's a 73mm shell (i.e. not road) and we need it to run an eccentric BB for the Rohloff hub.

you need to put mounts on that carbon fork to make it at least look more custom that I'm getting something more than a £60 decalked and lackered chinese one

I'd like to put mounts on it but it will cost me more than I can afford for the tooling and once I've done that, I won't recover the cost. So we do a steel fork with dynamo routing and luggage mounts instead.

the 58 size one needs another inch of stack height

Not for me and all the other people buying them it doesn't.

and you need to tell me that it can take a triple.

No I don't.

I am your market

Really? I didn't see that coming....

we've got/ had 4 Fargo's in the family plus several other Surly and Salsa fat and road bikes. To buy your frame it needs to be better or cheaper than a Fargo, and at the minute it's neither.

Ok. Buy a Fargo then. I hear they're great.

BTW, if the tone of your post reflects the type of customer you're likely to be then I think I might have dodged a bullet.

[quote=milfordvet ]I am your marketNot if you think a handmade steel frame from Shand is only worth £450 you aren't 🙂

[quote=shandcycles ]Buy a Fargo then. I hear they're great. Ah - but they've sold out.

I mean Fargos, not Salsa.

Or then again...

In fact I just did Mr Shand.

Salso got my business. I just bought a Fargo frameset today from Pedals Edinburgh. For £699 I've got my frameset. Compared to your £1150 Drove frameset, my bottom bracket won't creak after 4 weeks and gives me a full selection of aftermarket cranksets and teeth numbers, my carbon fork will have auxilliary mounts when my Revelate bags on there, my back will thank me for that extra inch and my hoses and cables won't be routed under the bottom bracket.

In fact I just did Mr Shand.

Woohoo! We're all winners!

Did you also pop into M&S on the way home and shout in front of all the customers : "This jumper's wrong! You need it to be bluer! You need to tell me it's got pockets! I don't like the hem! I'm your market for gods sake! You're doing it all wrong!" ?

BTW, if the tone of your post reflects the type of customer you're likely to be then I think I might have dodged a bullet.

I, on the other hand, would be interested when my M El Mar comes due for replacement but I'd need a smaller size than you do...

I *heart* mr shand 🙂

I, on the other hand, would be interested when my M El Mar comes due for replacement but I'd need a smaller size than you do...

If only we built stuff here so we could accommodate things like custom sizing, cable routing, BB shells (heh) etc...

Oh, hang on....

You know where we are 😉

He's looking for new employees btw!