[Closed] Ruining a friends wheels..

You shouldn't have used them in the first place if you couldn't afford to replace them IMO.

You need to talk it over with him, if he's sponsored he can presumably get things at a heavily subsidised price? The trade price on a DT XRC330 (assuming that's what it was?) is gonna be a fair bit more sensible than the retail.

I have always worked on the basis that if you borrow something and its damaged you replace it like for like..... Sorry but thats what I would expect. The fact that it was caused by someone else is not really your mates problem.
I know thats not much help but I can understand why he is pissed as he lent you something he wont get back.

don't borrow stuff you're unwilling to replace

can the lad that crashed into you give you some money? thats where id start, but i suppose its difficult with the accident happening in a race.

what does your mate want?

if you borrowed them are n't you responsible for them?
if you can't get the person whose fault the accident was perhaps you should get it repaired of buy a new one

that said, if your mate is sponsered is it such a big deal to him if he loses one wheel?

I am with the others here - borrow something the usual rules are "bend it and mend it"

Be honest with your pal. Tell him you feel guilty as sin but are two skint to replace like with like and ask him what he wants?

I suppose no chance of getting owt off the other rider?

I think your mate has every right to expect you to return his wheel in the condition he lent you it. If that means a new rim then so be it. It's your problem that someone crashed into you, not his. I'd be pretty pissed if I lent someone a fancy carbon wheel and got something average back though.

I can see where you guys are comming from and agree with some of the points, but I've asked other people who seem to think that when he handed them over, especially for a race, then there is going to be a chance that they could get damaged.

As for the rim in question, it wasn't a DT XRC330, but a hand made one, it had a chaps name over the top of a little sticker.

Replacing that like for like is out of the question I think, the wheels were from a swap, and are extremely rare.

I'm with IA, I'd rather wait 6 months for a replacement carbon one then get a 717 in the mean time.

I would also far rather have an Olympic, or ZTR Race as he's a racer, than a carbon rim anyway, but that's beside the point!

Whether there was a risk of damage is also immaterial, there's always a risk of damaging a bike component, but he obviously trusted you not to break them. You failed.

why should the other rider have to stump up any cash? accidents happen - it's mountain biking ffs

pac up and move to aussie 😆

Paddy, I still think it's implicit that you'll replace them if you damage them regardless - it's just one of those unwritten rules...

then there is going to be a chance that they could get damaged.

your right but you should take responsibility imo.

chat to your mate - if you can't replace see what your mate would like.

Agree with Nina

I had a word with the guy after the race, he was apologetic and knew he was at fault, but in this instance, that means very little. He was with his family after, and I felt it would have been inappropriate to ask for some money towards a replacement.

And, yes I know its me who is responsible! I'm just trying to get other views on it.

If I rode into someone, through my own error, and damaged something of some other riders equipment, I would actually expect to pay in part towards a replacement. But maybe thats just me.

If borrowed your race bike and brought it back as a car hit me-should I replace it with an Apollo piece of $hit?

Treat those how youwant to be treated.

Legally you would have to replace the wheels then if you could-get the money from the guy who hit you.

If you were all insured for racing including equipment, own damage and 3rd party.

You did cover yourself? Pass it on to the insurance. Accidents happen.

Or **** your friend over and lose your friends and respect/reputation.

If he can get them cheap then pay for that.

I won't borrow my friends carbon bike in case I trash it as I'm paying my mortagage.

You've learned a lesson in life too! bargain.

As others have said, 'you bend them, you mend them'.

TBH though, you're going to have to talk it through with your mate: if the rims weren't brand new and say a season of racing old then I would not necessarily expect you to give him the new cost in return...suggest you pay him the 2nd hand value based on their pre-race and pre-crash condition?

It hasnt broken the hub, most of the spokes will be fine, you just need to buy a rim and pay for a wheelbuild..

Find out what the rim is exactly, the maker will still be around, get another if possible or something its equal.

2 points
as already said - You should replace the damaged rim like for like
Races are - by their - very nature competitive with accidents & errors all the time, you can't expect the other competitor to foot the bill even if he did cause the crash

Are you their friend or not? Can't believe you'd try to get a mate to stump up the cash for something like this, particularly if it wasn't their fault.

I can see where you guys are comming from and agree with some of the points, but I've asked other people who seem to think that when he handed them over, especially for a race, then there is going to be a chance that they could get damaged.

It was a accident and it's not entirely Your fault, but You were given the wheels and You were made responsible for their condition. I doubt he handed them to You and thought that there is a chance of getting them damaged, he's Your mate and probably trust You enough to let You race on those wheels. If I would break something than I would feel obliged to bring it to the condition I received it in. And with my luck I just don't borrow any expensive stuff. Thing is, if he`s Your mate than have a honest chat with him and see what You can work out.

Now You probably won't borrow anything and stick to racing on Your own parts 🙂

Indeed, was it really worthwhile around Sherwood!? Aero wheels would be more useful than super light I reckon!

I say you talk to him and suggest buying him a ZTR Race, cheaper, lighter, faster. Sorted.

And if I'm any good as a stalker you didn't even finish the race by the looks of things? Pah, you may as well have ridden on it and totally ruined it. Do a job properly man!

as others said, you have to replace them, you borrowed them.

I just can't believe you're thinking of giving your mate something half as good as a replacement. How does that make you feel ? do really believe that is what your mate deserves ?? Is that how you treat people, borrow a tenner and give a fiver back saying well sorry mate but I lost the other fiver ?

some people...Jeesh.

AndyP - What are you talking about?

As for the wheel, he seems to reckon it might be fixable, so fingers crossed. I have already asked him what rims he wants.

The thought even crossed my mind before the race, that I shouldn't be using them, but its a bit late for that now.

The wheels weren't aero btw, just look like a standard rim but made of carbon.

I never said they were aero (assuming you were aiming that at me), just that around Sherwood aero wheels would have been more useful than borrowing a super light set, passing comment.

I'm intrigued about these rims though, and who you borrowed them off!

Keva, calm down. I'd rather you not refer to me as 'some people', if you actually read my previous posts you will see that I'm trying to get 'other peoples views'

At no point have I suggested to my my friend that a 717 will do as a replacement, that was a passing thought.

This is one of the reasons i hate to even borrow anything of greater value than a spare tube on a ride. Its 100% replacement or dont borrow them.

Wether you were racing or not you dont borrow something you cant afford to replace.

IMHO - this is actually more difficult than a lot of you are making out.

Wheels were borrowed and you have a duty of care for those wheels and as such should replace them.

However - presumably if he is a mate and did willingly loan them too you he may well have recognised you 'wouldn't / couldn't' afford to replace them should they get broken. So there is some responsibility there too. OK so it is a moral rather than a legal responsibility but it is still important.

Also worth bearing in mind is the imapact of his loss. How important are those wheels to him? If very important, he would not have lent them?

I guess it is down to you and him to have a chat and agree on suitable and acceptable compensation. What can each of you do to lessen the impact of the loss?

There is definately a moral here, and it revolves around the old statement 'never a borrower nor a lender be.'

Sorry - probably not helpful but, i hope balanced. Good luck. You do have my sympathy.

You broke it you bought it. I can imagine it being a bit of an arse especially if the accident wasn't your fault but in my oppinion you shouldn't even be asking this question - just replace his rim with one of the same quality. I've done similar things in the past and even if I didn't have the money to buy myself something I would find it to replace something of a mates I was responsible for.

I can't believe the subject of what happens if you trash them at the race didn't come up when he was lending you some bling carbon wheels to race on.

It's for sure not the guy who hit you's responsibility, you were in a race, shit happens.

Your friend was a bit naive lending you something that has some value to him and not getting an agreement you'd replace like for like (or with cash) if you broke them. Ultimately though even without an agreement you morally should be replacing them (with equivalents or cash value).

'other peoples views' ffs

Stop trying to justify yourself.
You owe him a new wheel exactly the same as you broke.

I'm not suprised your friend is feeling 'all awkward about it' your putting him in a horrible position.

don't borrow stuff you're unwilling to replace

S'true. You break it, you pay for it.

ou can't expect the other competitor to foot the bill even if he did cause the crash

Do motor-racing teams pay for damage to rival teams cars, if one of their drivers causes an accident?

If I were the crasher, and you'd asked me for money, I'd tell you to get ****ed. Don't wanna risk equipment, then don't race.

You're morally obliged to replace said rim. If you can't afford it all in one go, then maybe you can come to an arrangement; pay in instalments, do some work for them, go on the Game...

What rims cost £300 anyway? That's insane!

Bumhands - I made it even worse by crying afterwards. 🙄

Thanks for the 'views' people. Appreciate it.

Ciao.

I swapped bikes with a mate on a ride last week 'cos he wanted to ride my full-suss on one of the descents, he fell off and scratched the stantion of my brand new forks. Bit of a bugger but at the end of the day there's as much chance of it happening to me as him.

What would your mate have done if he'd been the one crashed into at the race? If he'd have bought a new wheel then I'd say that's what you owe him. If he'd have shrugged as he was given it free by a sponsor, perhaps an apology will suffice?

I have actually been in a similar situation, just not carbon rims.

Lent my mate a front wheel for a day DHing - he messed up a double and rode into a tree, pringled it. He was happy to replace the rim, but as he was a mate and I recognised the wheel wasn't new in the first place I said I'd pay for the new spokes - and he did the build himself with my help.

you break it, you buy it.

im happy to lend all sorts of stuff to friends, but that is the rule.

As above.. you bend it, you mend it.. its the unwritten borrowing law 😉 the other law not on your side at that race is sods law.. sadly sh*t happens 🙁
I appreciate that people should protect their own interests and not lend things that can't afford to be replaced, but then you also shouldn't borrow things you can't afford to replace.

If he's sponsored then I'm sure he can get stuff cheaper than you'd expect, so, ask him to get the stuff replaced and give him his cost back. If he's properly sponsored.. then you might expect to cover the cost of postage and a rebuild.. or if he's 'sponsored' then you could be looking at RRP + rebuild. Chat with him and ask what its going to cost to get it fixed using his sponsors in the route he'd follow to repair his own breakages.

If I borrow a bike, it comes back clean and serviced.. if I borrow a car, it comes back full of petrol and washed/polished if i've had it a few days..

Good luck

Hmm. I don't think it's quite as simple as 'you broke it you mend/replace it'. If you didn't beforehand explicitly agree or even discuss what would happen in the event of a crash, then I think thats a mistake on both your parts. I would never lend an item of mine to someone if I thought they would have difficulty replacing it, so I think your friend made an error of judgement too.

Have to say even if the other lad caused the accident , if i was the other guy id say sorry but thats as far as his responsibility goes ....

but im in the bend it you bought it camp ....

dont borrow what you wouldnt buy your self....

Don't lend what you don't want broken.

😕

if no agreement then id assume that if i broke it id fix it ....

i cant remember the last time i had to explicitly state that when ive borrowed stuff to mates .... If i was lending my bike out to a tester through the shop then yes i would explain ...but between mates i believe that there is a degree of trust and that we would treat each other as we expect to be treated ?? surely !! and if i didnt know them well enough then no borrow

Many times when lending stuff to friends i will joke " break it,buy it " and have heard it many times from them .

So even if we didnt have that joke , its really an unwritten rule , break it ...replace it .

At the end of the day , if hes a good friend he will understand you dont have the immediate cash to replace it ..... but then again you are asking us to help you decide if he can afford to loose it when it's not our freindship.

If he borrowed your bike and mangled it .... what would you expect ???

Paddy

I'm assuming that by looking for other views, you're hoping that someone in the ether of tinterweb will come along and tell you that it's ok for you to give back the damaged wheel without paying to fix it? I think you know in yourself that the decent thing to do would be to stump up the cash and pay for the repair. Is it really worth risking your friendship with a mate for a sake of a few quid?

Imagine he came on the forum and posted the following.

"I lent a set of wheels to a mate for a race and when I got them back, they were damaged. What should I do? He's not wanting to pay to have them fixed" I would suspect the answer from the forumites would be to be more careful who you lend to and ask yourself how much of a mate he is.

You know what needs done. Be a good mate and stump up for the repair and chalk it up to experience. It's only money which tends to be easier to come by than good mates.

Sanny

If you really can't afford to replace it, then you have to talk to him and explain the situation. Maybe he'll understand and cut you some slack, but I feel he does have the right to ask for a similar replacement.

On two occasions recently, I've lent out a spare bike so that people can come on rides with me. Person 1 returned it with 1 puncture, one ripped sidewall and an enormous stantion scratch (granted, not noticed till later).

Tyre was requested, never received. Scratch was mentioned in the context of helping me to fix it with nail varnish or the like. Never mentioned again and no help offered. Basically person 1 has **** all chance of borrowing anything from me again, which is a shame as I like to help people out.

Contrast this to person 2, who borrowed the same bike on the subsequent ride. He replaced the damaged tyre and fixed the puncture. He also discovered the scratch whilst checking the bike over before riding. Person 2 can borrow anything I own!

A few folk have asked me if they can borrow the tandem for a try. I am happy to do so but I always say - "usual rules apply - bend it and mend it". That way its explicit and understood.

I do have a slight anecdote on this, which you may prefer, as it sounds more like the sort of person you want to be...

I worked with a chap, who I get on with very well. We went riding, he complained about not having glasses, I had a pair of (admittedly very old) M-Frames in the car which I offered. He said 'I'll break them' I said 'no you won't' and lent them to him. I got them back 2 weeks later, he'd dropped his tool box on them and broken the frame. He refused to pay on the basis that he'd told me he'd break them, it was my fault that I chose to not believe him. Needless to say we had quite a disagreement on the subject, but in the long run it just wasn't worth worrying about, I still had to work with him, so got on with my life, and we're still friends.

Indeed the same may happen to you with your friend, but I think I'm rather an easy going person, and many would have fallen out over it.

If it were me, I'd talk to the friend, explain you're not in a position to pay, but intend to in the long run, and see if you can reach an agreement.

He said 'I'll break them' I said 'no you won't' and lent them to him. I got them back 2 weeks later, he'd dropped his tool box on them and broken the frame.

The thing is with lending stuff to mates, you don't do it to enable them to have a go and not worry about breaking stuff, you do it to enable them to have a go without worrying about a little bit of normal wear.

You bend it,
You mend it.

Basic rule of keeping friends.

A really good mate would say not to bother though, and if you were a really good mate, you'd still mend it.

Talk to your friend and tell him the truth that your short of cash and pay him weekly or something.

I bet 0091paddy would pay up if he/she was rich. Learned a lesson though-treat people how you wish to be treated.

Did you have a written contract?

Did you have a written contract?

Why, do you normally make your friends sign and get witnesses when you lend them something? Do you have many friends? [:roll:]

I suppose I might have been commenting ironically on all the barrack room legalise being spouted on this thread. A bit subtle I know... But since you ask, yes, obviously, of course I ****in' make my mates sign a contract if they borrow something. Don't you? Doesn't everyone? For example, last week I loaned someone on here a sense of humour, but sadly he didn't realise what it was and accidentally traded it for a lumpen tendency to take everything he read at face value, etc, pfffff....

Chrism, I wouldn't say I ask for it, people tend to say things like that, and it wasn't like he crashed or anything (which I wouldn't have minded), but they were sitting in the boot of his car and he dropped a tool box on them, that's just careless, which annoyed me more.

Still, as he had told me he'd break them he clearly wasn't going to pay, and it wasn't worth it in the long run.

Paddy, can you now pretend you said 'I'll break them' when he offered them to you? Excellent way to weasel out of paying!

same happened to me last year, except it was a brand new set of easton DH bars that ended up with big chunks of carbon missing, the guy had gone over the handlebars, lent the bike in good faith and the guy didn't even tell me he had crashed (he also scuffed and took chunks out of various other parts), lucky there were several witnesses including me, he promised he would pay for the damage but eight months later no new parts or cheque.

So people are just ****s 😥

njee - not suggesting at all he was right to get out of paying, and I agree with you about it being worse that he broke them whilst not wearing them (though arguably that's covered by "I'll break them", depending on exactly what he meant by that - maybe he breaks everything by being careless).

For example, last week I loaned someone on here a sense of humour, but sadly he didn't realise what it was and accidentally traded it for a lumpen tendency to take everything he read at face value, etc, pfffff....

I don't lend my bike to others, bad enough if i wreck it but i don't want others to feel like i would (assumption is they would feel the same) if i broke, wrecked, scratched, got dirty, someones elses bike (such a small word).

dunno,

as the op isnt reading anymore its largely irrelavent but here's my tuppence worth.

If i lend something then as long as they dont run off with it I accept that there is a possible risk of it being broken. Just as if i was riding it in the same situation.

That's why I never lend anyone my nice bikes.

But the BMX and commuter are fair game. The commuter owes me nothing and would cost more to fix than buy a new one. The BMX is pretty much unbreakable.

If I leant someone my £300 wheels (not that i own any worth that) I'd presume they were my spare set and I had some better race wheels and cheeper practice wheels so they weren't being used. From his POV maybe he doesn't want to lose the friendship by presenting the OP with a £300 invoice?

Are you drunk? And was the thread really worth reviving for that!?

If I were a race team principal, I wouldn't let him ride one of my bikes.

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/being-let-down ]thats a grand bit of shit stirring you found yourself thisisnotaspoon[/url] 😉

As others have said if you borrow something and break it, your fault or not, then it's up to you to replace. Why should the guy be out of pocket because he was decent enough to lend you a set of nice wheels?

I think epicyclo summed it up as I see it perfectly-

You bend it,
You mend it.

Basic rule of keeping friends.

A really good mate would say not to bother though, and [b]if you were a really good mate, you'd still mend it[/b].

Agreed that you're morally obliged to replace them like for like, or at least as close as you can get if they're genuinely hard to come by. It's for your mate to decide if anything less is acceptable, not you!

Chrism, I wouldn't say I ask for it, people tend to say things like that, and it wasn't like he crashed or anything (which I wouldn't have minded), but they were sitting in the boot of his car and he dropped a tool box on them, that's just careless, which annoyed me more.

That would wind me up too- I'm perfectly happy to accept that things get broken, but when they could just as easily not have been broken and it's down to people just not thinking about other people's stuff then it's annoying.

i regularly lend my bike(s) to mates who don't have their own so i've got a riding buddy for things like recent trip to wales. I'm trying to work out how I'd feel/what the finance situation would be if one of them stacked it and broke something. I'm not really sure, I guess it would depend pretty heavily on what said mate offered/came back with.

Troll

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njee20 - Member

Are you drunk? And was the thread really worth reviving for that!?

Indeed.

I just read all that then get to the end and find out its 3 months old, i feel cheated! what a fanny for even asking that question in the first place!

appologies for resurecting an old thread, wasn't trolling, must have opened it from a link somewhere and not checked its in-date-ness

Although it does prove a point that accidents happen!

Sobered up now then, that post makes a lot more sense than your first contribution 😉