I see that, but I also think that this is what racing is for. Strava and sportives are racing without the emotional investment, racing for people who don't want to put their ego on the line, racing in private so you can take your ball home when you lose.Get a licence, get racing.
You'll get a lot more out of it than comparing virtual times on a screen.
Very well put.
I think the best way to encourage new cyclists into "proper" racing is to encourage participation in Sportives and the use of Strava and the like. It makes the transition from casual cyclist to committed and competitive cyclist much smoother. Both give the cyclist a platform whereby they can compare their ability against others and - assuming they're not the slowest - encourage them to enter an official race. I don't think the cycling community is doing itself any favours with this disparagement of sportives and Strava.
Strava and sportives are racing without the emotional investment, racing for people who don't want to put their ego on the line, racing in private so you can take your ball home when you lose.
This is a good thing. Many cyclists want nothing more than this.
You'll get a lot more out of it
This could be true, but you'll only get out what you put in and therein lies the rub. I often wonder how good I'd be if I put more time, effort and commitment into cycle racing. Unfortunately I could also say the same about climbing, skiing, tennis, squash, hockey, running, driving, windsurfing and all the other activities I've participated in over the years. I've long since settled into my "jack of all trades master of none" persona 😀
Last nights 40 miler had myself and former STW wind up merchant GW averaging 20mph for the first hour . The second hour was back into a cross / head wind and we managed the last 20 miles in 1 hr 10mins.
On long rides of up to 100 miles the speed drops down to about 15 - 16 mph.
Strava and sportives are racing without the emotional investment, racing for people who don't want to put their ego on the line, racing in private so you can take your ball home when you lose.
Not quite - Strava is for when you are not racing.
I tend to road ride sporadically & can't get a decent comparison @ 30 miles. I do have a 52 miler (with 3,165 ft of climbing) that has been done several times this year - I'm averaging 16mph across different conditions.
In general terms, I find myself mid-table on Strava leaderboards & seem to pass as many other riders as those that pass me. As far as I'm concerned, locally speaking, I'm average.
Hillingdon Crits in the early 2000s. (1 hour + 5 laps). 4th cat race would average around 24mph. The E/1/2/3 would be around 27mph(for the bunch, not the break).
These were big bunches on one of the fastest crit circuits in the country.
At the time my club mates would consider 16/17mph on a solo road ride pretty good going, despite the fact most of us would be hovering at about an hour for a 25mile TT.
I average 17mph on a good day for 16.2 quite hilly miles to work. Proper average, like I start at one end, stop at the other, and I've taken 57 minutes total. Counting actual averages rather than 'riding averages'/'cheating averages' can make a real difference to people's speeds too.
On the other hand, if I go up or down the valley rather than the hilly way, I'd be annoyed if I averaged much under 20.
I don't use Strava right now, but I understand round here all the road routes are ridiculously fast, because we are a big place for road riding (on the A6 to Matlock), so a lot of good club riders set times (not to mention people using Strava on the big Tuesday night chaingang with probably 20 or more riders in the front group).
Drafting speeds can be pretty fun - I did a 5 mile time trial and averaged 22.75mph yesterday, but then wheel-sucked on the way back behind a guy who is faster than me, we didn't go below 25 mph for much of it, I was just sat on the drops pottering along behind him while he did all the work, the lazy wheelsucker that I am.
Only people I know of who can hold above 20mph for a decent period of time (>2hrs) are typically 1st Cats and Elite.
As for sportives they aren't a race, plenty of top riders cycle around them but for a nice day out and chat not to be on the rivet the whole time. Racing UK sportives is pretty sad really.
Counting actual averages rather than 'riding averages'/'cheating averages' can make a real difference to people's speeds too.
On sundays 100k ride the in motion average and the overall average were 0.2mph different. We had to stop for a few junctions and traffic lights but otherwise rode the entire time until we got back. Same as every week.
Does everyone else stop for a pub lunch? Sounds like I'm missing out.
Only people I know of who can hold above 20mph for a decent period of time (>2hrs) are typically 1st Cats and Elite.
I certainly wouldn't say that's typical. As I said earlier, I'm a 3rd cat and did the Ride London 100 in 4:36, 22mph average speed.
One of my strengths is consistent speed over a long period - big changes in pace/gradient are difficult for me. Unfortunately, my strengths make me a good TTer but not a particularly good racer. I can't sprint, so my only chance of points in crits is to break the bunch up and try and ride people off my wheel.
Those brutal attacks or bunch sprints that win most races aren't for me!
100k ride the in motion average and the overall average were 0.2mph different. We had to stop for a few junctions and traffic lights but otherwise rode the entire time until we got back. Same as every week.
Depends where you go - if I head for the Peak District, I can ride like that, pretty much without stopping. If I head towards Nottingham for work, I can lose 3-5 minutes from an hour by stopping.
On a club ride I'd not expect stopping except maybe for a small number of traffic lights, but then they tailor their routes for that purpose.
Only people I know of who can hold above 20mph for a decent period of time (>2hrs) are typically 1st Cats and Elite.
Although obviously anyone who can sit in a bunch can do it while drafting.
The flat 20 mile commute this morning had me at 20.1MPH on the Garmin.
I have done 21+ average but that nearly killed me 🙄
As the year has gone on I have noticed my average increase by a good 2-3 MPH, but that could just be new light bike syndrome.
A couple of us did a 85 miler a few weeks ago and managed 17.5MPH, but we only managed 15MPH on the Stavely Sportive in July.
Thos hills don't half knock the average. 🙁
These are all rolling average BTW (except the commute ones)
Only people I know of who can hold above 20mph for a decent period of time (>2hrs) are typically 1st Cats and Elite.
I certainly wouldn't say that's typical. As I said earlier, I'm a 3rd cat and did the Ride London 100 in 4:36, 22mph average speed.
I think there's a confusion on here about time trialling versus bunch riding. Anyone can sit in a big group and average 20mph+, but how many of us can realistically do 20mph or more for (say) 5 hours?
Although looking at results, if you did more than 5 hours in a 100 mile time trial, you'd be well into the bottom 25% of the results, so there must be a fair few people out there with that fitness.
As I said earlier, I'm a 3rd cat and did the Ride London 100 in 4:36, 22mph average speed.
That presumably involved drafting at times. I was talking about solo rides.
Probably about 50% of it was in a bunch, and the final 25 miles was pretty much solo as I'd passed all the earlier waves of riders.
My solo ride times tend to be around evens, that's what I aim for. Below 40 miles I'm generally there or there abouts, over 40 miles I'd be happy with 18/19 and I certainly wouldn't expect to go lower than that up to the century.
The Ride London course was very flat compared to what I normally ride (Pennines, Trough of Bowland) so I'm quite sure I'd have stayed over 20mph riding it solo.
A lot of our club rides are in the hills and - since there is a wide range of climbing ability - they involve quite a few stops to let others catch up. I gather there are clubs out there who aren't so caring and considerate; if you can't stay on the back, tough 😯
No doubt this makes a difference to average speed; how can it not?
dragon - Member
Only people I know of who can hold above 20mph for a decent period of time (>2hrs) are typically 1st Cats and Elite.As for sportives they aren't a race, plenty of top riders cycle around them but for a nice day out and chat not to be on the rivet the whole time. Racing UK sportives is pretty sad really.
I'd disagree with both of these points really 😉
I've got a good 60 mile loop with 3,200ft of climbing and fastest i've done that in is just under 3 hours at 2:55.
My Ride London time was 4:09 (24mph av) and whilst that obviously involved group riding, myself and another club member managed to work together for the whole ride (towing a big group) hence the high speed. Conditions were also perfect and I think everybody did that ride quicker than expected. That was a sportive and people were not our for a jolly but racing it.
Obviously a sportive isn't a race, but it's against a clock so more like a time trail, whatever you say most people people will be out to ride as quick as they can.
I think a lot of people here would enjoy doing club TTs. They dont have to be up and down DCs if that is not your thing.
It is what got me into riding fast (well not fast just ok given my very average physiology)
You get to ride the same road on the same night as others with no help and you get a good idea of how you stack up. Someone times it properly too unlike strava. Plus you try much harder than normal with a number on your back.
Our local course is mostly small roads and its dead friendly. Loads of peole on normal road bikes, just turn up and ride. The only downside is that most will be beaten by a young girl who rides most weeks.
The only downside is that [s]most will be beaten by a young girl who rides most weeks[/s] time trialling is shit
FTFY
I cannot think of a grimmer way to spend time on a bike. I'd rather commute through London - seriously.
Anyway, just planned a 20 mile route from my house, but it unfortunately has to involve some country lanes, one set of traffic lights, two motorway junctions four or five roundabouts and one hill in addition to some undulating terrain. About 9 or so miles is pancake flat though so that might help. I'm off to do it now, before lunch, I'll let you know how I get on 🙂
Hmmm. I'd quite fancy a go at a TT and ironically, Reading Cycling Cub are running one which covers several of my local training routes tonight and comes through the next village! Will have to wait until I have a road bike though!!!!!!!
I do have the urge to try TTing again... My goal is to get 2nd Cat next season, and then will probably be a good time to make the switch - save me getting my head kicked in twice a week by E/1/2s! 😀
I can't see how a TT is enjoyable either, but plenty of people like them and if you are Strava junkie then they are right up your street.
I can't see how a TT is enjoyable either, but plenty of people like them and if you are Strava junkie then they are right up your street.
TT's are not meant to be enjoyable, it's not a sportive... but they are very addictive 🙂
I don't see the correlation with Strava use though.
Each to their own, but the enjoyment comes from testing yourself and improving, also it can get competitive between guys of similar abilities, which a lot of people seem to like., but yeah it is not for everyone.
I like the people too. A lot of old school roadies chatting about bikes and eating cake.
I'm in Berkshire and I could go out from my front door and plot myself a pretty flat 20-30 miles avoiding the worst roads for headwinds, we have a few long flat drags where you can churn out a fair few miles at ~23mph to drag your rides Avg up and I reckon I could bump my Avg into the 19-20mph range by doing just that, but then I don't think that ride would have much positive effect on my fitness, you need to stress your body regularly to feel any long term benefit IMO, this means climbing.
TT and Crit riders can't train by simply doing endless flat loops can they?
TBH round my way the hills are not giant and a 30 miler might yield maybe 1000ft of climbing if you go looking for it, I've been tending to extend my routes to take in more ascents and I reckon that will probably reduce my average speeds in the short term, you do claw a bit back by tucking in and flying down a descent but then that's just equilibrium.
longer term i'm hoping more climbing will help me build my strength, stamina and ability to recover and increase my overall Avg by a couple of Mph... maybe...
If your using Strava as a training tool rather than a virtual racing site there is more useful data than just average speed gathered from your rides. it has make me wonder about power meters, well at least it did until I saw the cost of one...
crosshair - Member
Hmmm. I'd quite fancy a go at a TT and ironically, Reading Cycling Cub are running one which covers several of my local training routes tonight and comes through the next village! Will have to wait until I have a road bike though!!!!!!!
Funny you should mention that I find a lot of the local TT segments pop up on on my rides, me and a mate rode past a TT being run in Mortimer a couple of weeks ago, looked like a mixed bag of posh TT bikes and aero helmets and folks on normal road bikes, Swallowfield Velo apparently run a club TT now and then as well (my mate is a member)...
Basically there's loads of TTing around Reading / West Berks.
I'm Just not sure I fancy entering one right now, maybe next year... would they let me do it on my fixie? Hmmmm.
People commenting on The RideLondon: closed roads, good weather and a surprisingly high standard of riding contributed to some very high speeds. A mate did it in just under 4.5hrs and I think the fastest time was about 4.10.
I usually reckon on an average of between 16-18mph on solo road rides. Generally anyone claiming averages of over 20mph is either doing a one-way ride with a tailwind, on an extremely short ride, or lying. 😉
Racing is a whole different set of figures - even a 3rd & 4th Cat bunch can average 24mph, I've done E/1/2 races in the past which have averaged 27mph.
Quoting averages though is pretty meaningless, there are too many variables for it to cross reference easily - weather, road surface, group/solo, closed/open roads, terrain, even things like bike/gearing/tyres.
I usually reckon on an average of between 16-18mph on solo road rides. Generally anyone claiming averages of over 20mph is either doing a one-way ride with a tailwind, on an extremely short ride, or lying.
I know you're joking, but seriously, there are thousands of people out there who can do 20mph and barely break a sweat, at least for an hour or two. Any rider with half-decent fitness can, you don't need to be near Elite level.
Interesting.
So, apart from the obvious 'pedal faster, use a higher gear' policy, what's the best way to up your speed?
Longer rides, tougher climbs, some special Lance 'medicine'?
Slightly off topic, rigid mtb with semi slick tyres (Conti Double Fighters), 50psi - 20 miles/15.3mph/1.21.46/783ft. Not sure I'd be much faster on a road bike?
Quoting averages though is pretty meaningless, there are too many variables for it to cross reference easily
I think - and correct me if I'm wrong - this is why people have supported their figures with information about the profile, weather, type of bike, whether they were solo etc. 🙄
So, apart from the obvious 'pedal faster, use a higher gear' policy, what's the best way to up your speed?
I find a combination of sweet sport riding (just below threshold) mixed with over/under drills makes the biggest difference. Racing is a good substitute for over/unders during the summer months.
[caveat]it does largely depend on what you want to achieve though, and what sort of distances you want to see the improvements at.[/caveat]
Crazy, just because you average 16-18 doesn't make everybody else a liar, smiley or not. And as Shibboleth says most of us are qualifying our posts. I'm a recreational recent convert and not part of a club so its interesting to read. All my riding is solo or 2-up so nobody to compare too, and less drafting than a club/pack, having hooked up with a group on a recent sportif I was amazed how quickly you can go for so long with so little effort.
The last time I solo rode my local 30 mile loop (rolling but no big hills, wind but not a gale, mainly on hedge lined lanes and through villages) averaged 19.5, I do no structured training, and have no specific goals other than I enjoy coming home tired. I'd expect fast club guys to easily average 20+.
Sweetspot is def a winner. But a lot of things work for some but not others. It depends on your training history genetics and mental factors too. Once you get to a reasonable level you just have to try a few things to see what works. I think it is safe to say that you should be consistent and build up, but take adequate rest.
I have improved this year using a lot of threshold work for 45 mins, mixed with sweet spot and a few long hard rides. But I have a good base and a lot of people would want less threshold. Hard 5 min stuff works for some and can benefit longer rides but I don't respond well it just hurts me. This is mainly for 25 mile tts although I have done 100 mile in less than 4 hours when I was weaker tha. I am now so you don't always need loads of miles
I find sweetspot better for building base fitness - helps for bigger distances, but can be counterproductive for racing. I can see why it's popular with TTers.
For racing there's a need to really stretch that zone over threshold. This is what I'm working on at the moment as it's essential in races to be able to stay longer at over-threshold pace. Horrible.
Yeah I just meant to improve av speed. All that surging and sprinting road racers do is totally beyond me.
And me! Hence why I'll be forever a Cat 3... The lads I'm racing against are half my edge and 20kg lighter! Trying to hang on to their accelerations is pretty tough!
This is what I'm working on at the moment as it's essential in races to be able to stay longer at over-threshold pace. Horrible.
Long-ish intervals at a decent percentage over threshold? Savage 🙂
the enjoyment comes from testing yourself and improving
Yes, but I can do the same on an MTB ride. My personal time trial is a lap of Cwmcarn. It's a proper physical test on the way up and a white knuckle ride on the way down as I try to shave off the seconds. I know it so well I know my splits and the lines to take. I enjoy that far more than up and down the A48.
I reckon I could bump my Avg into the 19-20mph range by doing just that, but then I don't think that ride would have much positive effect on my fitness
It would on your endurance at speed. Flat roads or steady climbs are great for threshold training. Of course you do need to go over that threshold for other sessions, as Shibboleth says - steep hills are good for this I find.
there are thousands of people out there who can do 20mph and barely break a sweat, at least for an hour or two
On the flat 20mph is indeed a pretty easy pace. However as mentioned above, an AVERAGE speed of 20mph is a totally different ball game. It only takes one long set of lights and a couple of right turns to completely knacker your average speed even on a flat ride.
Speaking of which, just got back from my 20 mile loop which came in slightly under due to me not starting in the right place, and I only managed 30.8kph. I was doing pretty well on the outbound leg but the return leg which is the flat bit is also down by the coast and not well protected so the headwind ruined my pace. And the last little hill which I always forget about. Also there's more like 12 sets of lights counting the signal controlled motorway junctions and I hit most of them.
On the flat 20mph is indeed a pretty easy pace. However as mentioned above, an AVERAGE speed of 20mph is a totally different ball game. It only takes one long set of lights and a couple of right turns to completely knacker your average speed even on a flat ride.
To put it into perspective, and again referring to the Ride London Century, on the flats, I tried not to drop below 27mph. The average speed was dragged down by having to slow to a walking pace up Leith Hill and Box Hill due to the amount of traffic and people that were actually walking!
Christ knows how these southerners would cope in the Pennines! 😉
I don't disagree cwmcarn is a great example. I think it would be cool to do off road tts. But obviously they are different and road tts are enjoyed by a lot of people so there must be something in it.
http://www.strava.com/activities/76123361
That's my effort for today. 31.2km/h according to Strava derived from my Garmin, which itself recorded 30.8km/h...
Also there's more like 12 sets of lights counting the signal controlled motorway junctions and I hit most of them
Annoying! I do tend to plan routes that avoid lights and crossings. Hate stopping.
A sunny lunchtime 20 miler here at 20.5mph (solo, 1010ft of climbing according to garmin, so pretty flat.) All day zone 2 stuff other than a decent push on the uphills. But then I do train a lot and race. Actually started training again at the beginning of the year after a couple of years off with injury and new baby and I think I'd have struggled to average 15mph on that loop! I don't think I'd ever been as unfit and there's been a lot of tedious painful turbo work to get back to somewhere near pre-injury power and weight. Joining the local club and doing some TTs this year has definitely been good motivation for training though and a great indicator of where I am relative to other riders. I'm not the slowest but I'm definitely not the quickest!
To get back to the original question though... I've no idea what "the pace" would be. Probably what you want it to be (which is usually faster than you are now! 🙂 )
Haven't read the whole thread (haven't got hours to spare!) but have seen evidence of plenty of guff spouted in the few responses I have read...
I know you're joking, but seriously, there are thousands of people out there who can do 20mph and barely break a sweat, at least for an hour or two. Any rider with half-decent fitness can, you don't need to be near Elite level.
20mph, on your own, and barely break a sweat? How long for, what terrain, and what drugs you taking?
I'm certainly not fast on a road bike, but then going by my Strava times I'm not that slow either. Got a few top 10's, and always in the top 50% (even on climbs which is my weakness), so I'd say I qualify for that "half decent fitness" label you mention. The only times I've ever managed to average more than 20mph for any distance have either been in a big group, or have included a nice tailwind.
On the flat 20mph is indeed a pretty easy pace. However as mentioned above, an AVERAGE speed of 20mph is a totally different ball game. It only takes one long set of lights and a couple of right turns to completely knacker your average speed even on a flat ride.
It always amazes me the amount of people that start talking about "average speed" when what they really mean is the pace they sit at on the flat. Took a lad out a while back, bit of a shonky old road bike but he looked pretty fit and he used to be a good XC runner apparently. Anyway, started riding out of town, I said to him "so what sort of pace do you normally average on a ride then, 16-17mph maybe?".
To which he replied "oh no, faster than that, closer to 20mph probably". OK I thought, well as I'm leading this ride it's probably going to be closer to 17mph than 20 average... Within 10 miles at 17mph average, he was broken, and I spent the next 25 miles having to drag him round! What he'd meant was that on perfectly smooth roads, with a slight tailwind, he could manage 20mph on the flat... And he thought he was going to tear my legs off before the ride!
Anyway... Managed the 21 miles from my GF's house back to mine, with a rucksack on, at 18.2mph avg last night. Pretty chuffed with that as though not hilly, it's undulating the entire way, and as said earlier, I'm not quick anyway. But compared to the 16ish I was averaging on road rides of similar length only a year or so ago, I've definitely made progress.
Oh, and on the Ride London note. Didn't do it (would have loved to, but not lucky enough to get accepted), but I know a number of guys that did. Most of the guys I know that are roughly similar pace to me, all finished in the 4hr40 to 4hr50 time bracket! I'd honestly expect a 100 mile ride to take 6hrs plus myself, but then I've heard it was pretty much pancake flat, and the guys I know have admitted as such as they just wheelsucked the whole way round (which can easily increase your average speed by 3-4mph).
20mph, on your own, and barely break a sweat? How long for, what terrain, and what drugs you taking?I'm certainly not fast on a road bike, but then going by my Strava times I'm not that slow either. Got a few top 10's, and always in the top 50% (even on climbs which is my weakness), so I'd say I qualify for that "half decent fitness" label you mention. The only times I've ever managed to average more than 20mph for any distance have either been in a big group, or have included a nice tailwind.
Have you ridden in a fast road club group?
I think that's the point he's making; solo and group are not the same. Someone's average in a group is bound to be higher
Have you ridden in a fast road club group?
Which will add 3-4mph to your average speed easily.
And yes, I have, and until I finally fell off the back of the group, my average speed was over 24mph. Obviously it dropped markedly once I fell off...
I think that's the point he's making; solo and group are not the same. Someone's average in a group is bound to be higher
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant it to mean, does he realise how quick some of the good club riders are? I can average over 20 mph on a lumpy route for a couple of hours without too much effort solo, and there are much quicker riders than me at my club.
Or build a bigger base? My main difference this year is a massive base due to boring myself silly with z2 on the rollers over winter. This has meant in racing / chaingangs, i'm mostly in z1 - 4, with only brief spells above threshold / z5a-c.For racing there's a need to really stretch that zone over threshold. This is what I'm working on at the moment as it's essential in races to be able to stay longer at over-threshold pace. Horrible.
I hate threshold effort with a passion, they are so boring. But love the pain from z5b efforts that usually means pretty much falling off my bike as soon as the interval is over 😕
Mmm, I personally think folk who can sit at 20mph on their tod for 2 hours are very much in the minority. I don't think it's the norm, and as for being able to do it without 'breaking a sweat', that's an even smaller sub set of riders!
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant it to mean, does he realise how quick some of the good club riders are?
Of course I do.
The point made above was...
Any rider with half-decent fitness can
...average 20mph.
I know guys that 99% of MTBer's would consider ridiculously talented Downhill on a Mountain Bike, the kind of guys that don't look like they've broken a sweat when they get to the bottom of a hill (where they then have to wait 2 minutes for everyone else to catch up). But put these guys against the likes of Gee Atherton, and they'd not stand a chance!
The point wasn't "could a TdF GC contender manage 20mph average on his own" it was that you or I or anyone else with "half-decent fitness" should manage 20mph avg.
Bear in mind the TdF average speed (climbs included granted, but then so are TT's and descents) is usually around 25mph, and that's as a group. Take Chris Froome, make him ride the whole TdF route on his own, no team and no peloton, and I'd bet he'd not manage much more than a 20mph average himself. OK, over 3500KM and some enormous mountains, but you see my point?
Or build a bigger base?
I don't think I have the time to build a much bigger base - I don't race anything over 50 miles and the majority are 30 mile crits, so I'm working on over threshold efforts during an hour race.
I've employed the services of a coach to oversee my winter training and pre-season for 2014 with a view to getting to Cat2, so I'll be working on base over winter and a week in Majorca early spring...
Winter races series are where you can pick up points. Especially if conditions are horrible 😆 So maybe look at doing that too.
Mmm, I personally think folk who can sit at 20mph on their tod for 2 hours are very much in the minority. I don't think it's the norm, and as for being able to do it without 'breaking a sweat', that's an even smaller sub set of riders!
but you see my point?
I do see the point here. I guess what I'm saying is that if you are the sort of rider that takes road training fairly seriously (I'm very time limited!) and competes fairly regularly, not just someone who goes riding every now and then, then it's not that much of a push. It's not Pro Tour territory! Admittedly the above would probably only apply to maybe, at a very rough guess, around 10% of club riders (and of those there's still a good spread of pace) so njee definitely has a point. I guess I've just been riding recently with people who are good TTers so my view of "normal" may be somewhat skewed.
If you don't ride in a club, you probably don't know what fit is.
I can average 20mph for 10 miles but probably not for 20 unless it was pancake flat. I did a time trial last night, just with people from the local triathlon club, none of whom are really serious road riders, and the winner was 3 minutes ahead of me. I am really not fit at all compared to a bad regular club rider.
For example if you look at our local 25 mile time trial results, not one rider averaged less than 20 mph.
http://cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/Default.aspx?&ge1246__geka=0qr-ktkYrcYzPU7-JC7bf9f_oc4Fb4M6rU-vQKEkKGwEgDRSjnvxeBsfAK4CXFM_3_SSI5IivjlnbAKCN9wmeFRgmipPUb0ija5hVlYo0NK4Ucl1MILKD5Jl0_r27Rdw&ge1246__gevi=2rCK9AX4wdTakLD9iNdBpozLXG4X8lNFX15D1RANbUw&gv484__gvac=2&gv484__gvff0=58710&gv484__gvfl0=0&language=en-GB&tabid=109
Mboy, to repeat some stuff from earlier, it depends how fast the locals are as to where you place on Strava.
Also, anyone training with any kind of computer, whether Garmin or retro sort, will know exactly what their average speed is.
20mph solo on a road bike is not guff- I'd say it was average for anyone riiding and pushing themselves regularly.
The TdF average speed is massively different - as expected - between the mountain stages and the "flat" stages. I can't remember the figures but it was 25mph versus 30-something mph. It's massively relevant. I've pedalled around the flat lanes of Lincolnshire comfortably riding near to 20mph. In the hilly Peak District a comfortably fast (but less than threshold) ride is 15mph.
Talking of Lincolnshire, I remember one ride where I was flying along at 20mph plus, thinking I was the badger's nadgers. I then turned around for the home stretch and realised that the lovely tail wind that blew me across the fens was now like riding into a brick wall. I averaged under 17mph 🙁
20mph, on your own, and barely break a sweat? How long for, what terrain, and what drugs you taking?
Yep, there are loads of people out there who can do that. I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch (3rd cat road, reasonable Master at XC, can knock out a decent TT when required, gets the odd result at 'cross) but 20mph on a flat road costs me about 220W. I can hold 330+ for an hour when I'm fit. I live in the Peaks and can do a 40 mile loop at 21 mph if I put some effort in and it's not mega windy.
And in the grand scheme of things, I'm utterly rubbish. Off the top of my head I can think of 30 or 40 guys within a 20 mile radius of my house who could destroy me on a road ride. Strava results mean nothing whatsoever, being in the top 10 or 20 of a segment doesn't mean you're fast.
On that ride I would have averaged 20mph if I could have saved 1m30s. I have to say I did probably spend that at traffic lights, so maybe that would be a 20mph average sort of effort. But I was on the bloody rivet most of the time!
Or build a bigger base?
Whether or not you need to build base depends on where you currently are, what kind of riding you've been doing, and I think your genetic make-up. When I did lots of z2 I slowed down - I was able to ride fairly quickly at a decent pace but I lost the ability to properly put the hammers down. I'm a natural sprinter, so that's what I use to get speed on mtb courses. Play to your strengths, but also fix your weaknesses as best you can.
For example if you look at our local 25 mile time trial results, not one rider averaged less than 20 mph.
Have you got a map of that course?
20mph on a flat road costs me about 220W
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
Big +1 for everything LS says 🙂
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone,
I think the point is that for some people 220W is a lot of power (compared to their FTP for example) and for others it isn't.
20mph solo on a road bike is not guff- I'd say it was average for anyone riiding and pushing themselves regularly.
20mph solo is perfectly achievable. But it is not the norm.
Your own skewed view of what is normal will bias your judgement here somewhat. Popular as cycling clubs are, they are still a vast minority amongst the general cycling public. Whilst I know my 30min 10m TT (in baggies and on my normal road bike, all I had to hand at the last minute) is pathetic compared to some (it was a hilly route in my defense), compared to the vast majority of joe public riding bikes, it was positively rapid!
Plenty of people I ride with regularly all think I'm actually quite a quick rider, and these are all people with more than average levels of fitness that ride regularly themselves...
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
Yes but he said he can average 330watts for an hour and yet 20mph only costs him 220
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
I used that figure versus my threshold to demonstrate the fact that I'm not trying [i]that[/i] hard in order to do 20mph, and more importantly that neither will a lot of people. I know full well that what you can tap along at doesn't equate to your average.
I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch (3rd cat road, reasonable Master at XC, can knock out a decent TT when required, gets the odd result at 'cross)
Look at that in the grand scheme of things, then re-assess your skewed view on normality and what a "half-decent fitness" level is.
You're in the top 0.1% of the general public that cycles. Probably inside the top 1% of people that cycle regularly (ie. more than once a week, or enough to call it a hobby/interest at least). Your standards are vastly higher than [i]"average."[/i]
220W at 20mph is going to be pretty similar for everyone, since our wind and rolling resistance are fairly similar. I can certainly do the same as you there.
But as I just showed, there's a lot of variables. Just hitting the lights badly on that route I just did cost me almost 0.5mph. If you live out in the sticks and can do long country roads without towns, then you have a far better chance of beating 20mph.
20mph solo is perfectly achievable. But it is not the norm.Your own skewed view of what is normal will bias your judgement here somewhat. Popular as cycling clubs are, they are still a vast minority amongst the general cycling public. Whilst I know my 30min 10m TT (in baggies and on my normal road bike, all I had to hand at the last minute) is pathetic compared to some (it was a hilly route in my defense), compared to the vast majority of joe public riding bikes, it was positively rapid!
Plenty of people I ride with regularly all think I'm actually quite a quick rider, and these are all people with more than average levels of fitness that ride regularly themselves...
I'm not in a club, don't own a road bike, don't wear Lycra and have only been cycling again for a year yet I know, locally, that 20mph average is no big deal. If I'm riding my mountainbike at a pace that winds up being 17mph average over 20-30 miles, I expect to get passed several times a week by different riders.
Look at that in the grand scheme of things, then re-assess your skewed view on normality and what a "half-decent fitness" level is.You're in the top 0.1% of the general public that cycles. Probably inside the top 1% of people that cycle regularly (ie. more than once a week, or enough to call it a hobby/interest at least). Your standards are vastly higher than "average."
In the grand scheme of things Chris Froome is better than me by the same amount that I'm better than a once-a-week cyclist, so I reckon my analysis ain't far off.
TT times are no guide to normal riding speeds. Unless you are some oddball who spends all ride on pretty much one road while cycling in askinsuit, on tribars and at max effort.
220W at 20mph is going to be pretty similar for everyone, since our wind and rolling resistance are fairly similar. I can certainly do the same as you there.But as I just showed, there's a lot of variables. Just hitting the lights badly on that route I just did cost me almost 0.5mph. If you live out in the sticks and can do long country roads without towns, then you have a far better chance of beating 20mph.
The point being that for a lot of people, it isn't difficult or a stretch to put out that power. So to average 20mph isn't a stretch for them either, even accounting for periods where more power is required, as they aren't operating anywhere near their limit.
Molgrips- people know how to measure their average speed (read the number of your speedo at the end of a ride 😉 )
My fav TT lap I use has five t junctions and loads of traffic calming islands but has bugger all impact on my times with a bit of forward obs (rarely if ever have to unclip).
When we say 20mph av is no big deal, we mean just that....
Dragon, all a TT is is a set, timed route. Obviously there's proper ones and ones you make up yourself.
I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch
Yeah but that is because you compare yourself to faster guys, we all do. If we looked at the general population we are all supermen. You are still much faster than the average club rider. Most club riders do not even race so you look at the subset that do, and you are still above average.
I totally see where LS is coming from. Most of the guys I ride and race with are rapid so you're constantly comparing yourself against them.
Anyway I think most people will often downplay how good they are.
wow, skimming through this i've realised i live in a hilly place!
i did a pretty civilised 27 miles with a mate yesterday, chatting etc
15mph average speed but 2900 feet of climbing! we didnt go looking for hills either!
Pretty much any direction you go for a ten mile loop involves at least 1200 feet of uphill gurning.
suddenly the 18 - 20 mph average speeds dont seem so far away!
that said, there are some bloody quick/fit people hee abouts so i know my place!
So having read through much of this thread and looking up "Sweetspot" training (new to me) it seems to me that avg speed isn't necessarily much of an indicator, there are too many other variables.
Average Power would be a better measure or failing that (i.e not having a power meter), time spent in different HR zones?
it all seems to correlate with my rather simplistic idea of regularly "Stressing" your body on rides, admittedly not really a structured approach...
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
"how much of that is spent climbing?"
"What sort of HR zones are you operating in and for how long?"
"What is your avg power output?"
If you happen to know any of this stuff off the top of your head you are probably more serious about training than I am TBH.
Avg speed is an easy one to look at and feel warm and fuzzy about I suppose...
Useful thread, cheers all.
it all seems to correlate with my rather simplistic idea of regularly "Stressing" your body on rides, admittedly not really a structured approach...
riding more and riding hard is my training plan, and that should be good enough for most. leave the structured training to the 20mph+ boys.
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
It's all about power. Won't be long before you're charting FTP, NP, TSS and IF 🙂
riding more and riding hard is my training plan, and that should be good enough for most. leave the structured training to the 20mph+ boys.
Suppose it's all about personal aspirations really. Most of us just want to be fit enough to enjoy our riding. Some of us want to improve our TT times. Others want to win races or move up a category. You do what you can with the training/life balance that you want or can manage. I doubt any of us has an aspiration to average X mph on road rides though!
It's funny actually, i mean i do enjoy a bit of strava competition with myself and my mates but i really just enjoy riding my bike, road or mtb. i enjoy feeling like i've pushed myself a little when i get home, be that up a climb or staying off the brakes that little bit longer on the downs.
The idea of actually "training" with hrm or cadence monitors, wattage, special diets and going riding in a specific way to get a better time is where i start to lose a bit of interest. I guess it seems like the fun starts to go and it all gets a bit too serious.
I've never found the idea of the gym appeals much either for similar reasons.
i guess i came to cycling only recently from a youth skating and a big surfing habit (which i still have) both sports where there is no "training" no advice on diet in the media, you just go do it, have fun, maybe get better and get fitter as a useful by product.
Life is stressful enough, we can all do with as much fun in our lives as we can shoe-horn in around the necessary things of modern life.
[i]all a TT is is a set, timed route.[/i]
A TT is a set route timed by [b]somebody else[/b]. There will be somebody a minute in front who you are trying to catch, and somebody a minute behind who you are trying to avoid being caught by.
You will ride a lot faster than if you do the same route on your own. (Although maybe Strava might compensate in someway, I wouldn't know)
of course it's also possible that i'm a lazy slacker at heart without the necessary self discipline for serious sport! 😆
Avg speed is an easy one to look at and feel warm and fuzzy about I suppose...
its an easy way to monitor your own performance and improvements, regardless of other peoples averages. As I said earlier when I came back to road riding I set 18mph average as a goal on the grounds thats the speed to 'qualify' for our local club "A" group, and my initial local loops were 20 miles. On my last 2 rides with my Garmin I've averaged 19.5 (solo, 30 mile loop) and 20mph (2-up, 65 mile loop), and anything less than 30 miles isnt worth getting kitted up for. Whether that makes me lycra clad riding god or a mediocre MAMIL compared to the Strava masses is irrelevant, I have an objective measure of my own improvement in speed and endurance, and I get to do something I enjoy, comfortably and for longer.
i enjoy feeling like i've pushed myself a little when i get home,
Thats pretty much my 'training' criteria, so its been interesting reading on here where my riding sits in the scheme of formal training. Most of my riding seems to be threshold/tempo/sweetspot, but I attack climbs which is interval/over-threshold stuff. Seems I am inadvertently doing something right?!
The point being that for a lot of people, it isn't difficult or a stretch to put out that power. So to average 20mph isn't a stretch for them either
Fine, but once you factor in traffic lights, steep hills, tight country lanes etc your mean speed will be much lower than 20mph, so to compensate you have to go a LOT faster when you are riding, which is much harder. If you had a flat or gently undulating course with no junctions, traffic lights or tight bends, then yes a 20mph average would not be a problem.
Your 220W figure is reasonable for 20mph, and I used to be able to average 220W for five hours - that's the average power recorded on powertap, which meant consttant pedalling at that power, even when going downhill or stopping. I never got above about 18.5mph average speed though. I could still probably average 220W for 3 hours but round here that would NOT get you a 20mph average speed.
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
"how much of that is spent climbing?"
It's not just about the climbing, it's about how steep it all is. I can average 20mph up gentle gradients for ages, and reap the benefits on the other side at 26mph, but on a country lane I might find a really steep hill that has me down to 8mph say and the other side is steep, narrow and windy so I am on the brakes a lot doing 15mph. But both routes could have the same amount of climbing.
You will ride a lot faster than if you do the same route on your own.
I don't find this. Especially not with a power meter. I pick a power I think is going to be a stretch, and I re-evaluate that target as I go, increasing it if I'm finding it easy. If that lets me catch the guy in front then fine, if not then he was just faster. And couple that with the fact that you might still beat him even if you don't catch him, it just doesn't get me going.
MTB racing is different, the short sharp climbs I like involve a flat out sprint, and those can be done harder given more focus on the race. Plus there's the singletrack and descents, where you take risks and push the boundaries of control and technique. Far more fun for me!
But I guess that's why we have different events, because they suit us differently. Froome vs Wiggo in the Tour is the obvious example.