[Closed] road climbing - sit down or stand? Efficency/Power/Speed up

Mix it up. Use different muscles etc.

If you're not racing and cycle for the enjoyment, just do whichever you enjoy most.

part of the enjoyment is going a little bit faster up each time 😀

check out GCN channel on youtube, theyve looked into it (along with aero vs light etc).

I'd suggest at 92kg you'd do better to sit and spin (with the proviso of using stints stood to use/rest different muscles on long climbs etc) as out-of-the-saddle your lifting your body mass.

I'm not on strava but I'm the quickest climber amongst my mates and pass people on climbs on sportives (trying to give a frame of reference not internet willy waving)- I put my road bike climbing ability down to years of lunking 30+lb fat-tyred full sussers uphill so I go mad on a 16lb whippety road bike. I climb out of the saddle "dancing on the pedals", but at 65kg I'm not moving much body weight around. The bigger guys I ride with all climb in the saddle as as far as I can recall.

You see all this pish about using different muscles when you're sitting versus standing, it is exactly that - pish. You are using the same muscles in both positions.

You see all this pish about using different muscles when you're sitting versus standing, it is exactly that - pish. You are using the same muscles in both positions.

Whereas that /\, is bollocks.

You see all this pish about using different muscles when you're sitting versus standing, it is exactly that - pish. You are using the same muscles in both positions.

which is manifest bollocks.

In the saddle I can let go of the bars, out of the saddle I'm counter-pulling on the bars so much my arms ached after Ronde Van Calderdale (3000+m of steep cobbles). Sitting puts more stress on your lower back - I used to only climb out-of-the-saddle due to a back problem which stopped me riding hardtails amongst other things.

You see all this pish about using different muscles when you're sitting versus standing, it is exactly that - pish. You are using the same muscles in both positions.

surely this is not correct???? Even if you are using the same muscle groups are the forces.strain/pressure not different??? 😕 ❓ confused

I like to imagine I'm Bradley Wiggins when sat down and Alberto Contador when stood up. I choose which depending on the hill, how steep it is, how long it is and if there's another overweight middle age bloke to beat to the top of it.

Didn't Team Sky do a bunch of physiological research that basically concluded that sitting in the saddle and spinning is more efficient and, if you watch them, that's mostly - bar the odd fast acceleration - what they do. Equally, you might prefer pedalling out of saddle on short punchy climbs and sitting and spinning on longer efforts I guess. I'm so slow that I doubt it makes much odds what I do.

Sit spin, shift up and stand, sit and shift down etc.

climbing today in a manner akin to middle aged gorilla and turning a shade of red/magenta I seemed to think it was sit and spin a high cadence aka like the one who shall not be mentioned introduced in the late 90/2000, but as the roadies passed me dancing on the pedals I got thunking on the next climb, then my head hurt so I though here was a good place to seek clarity

I've been part of a study on this very issue, as part of that I did VO2 max tests both seated and standing...

So I [b]know[/b] that for me, I can sustain a higher power longer seated.

However, they didn't control the room temp very well in the tests, and when I did the standing test it was proper hot which IMO killed me earlier than it would've done if it was colder like the seated test.

Just under 90kg/6'4" so not exactly a bloater...

Whereas that /\, is bollocks.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist.

Sit and spin, it is dependent upon the length and gradient but in most circumstances, on longer drags its better to sit and spin. If you are out of the saddle, you will have less core stability and rock the bars from side to side, this is a waste of power and effort. Stay seated, pedal continuously and in a fluid motion, ie not pedalling in "squares". A good tip is to do core exercises like press ups and the plank which will stop you wobbling and rocking the bars when standing.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist.

The leg extension changes. The working knee range changes. The hip angles change. The bike rotates about it's longitudinal axis as you use the upper body to impose opposing forces through the bars to the forces through the pedals. And so on.

For me (62kg) steep hill im happy to get out of the seat, once i find the right pace and cadence feel much more comfortable.

Theres a certain gradient hill that seems to catch me everytime though.. when its not steep enough to really bother getting out of the seat but i seem to blow up and really suffer trying to spin up..

Not really intrested in getting into your argument but my experience whilst having some ligament injury to my lower back/hip suggests that stood up climbing uses very different muscles than climbing sat down.

If you are out of the saddle, you will have less core stability and rock the bars from side to side, this is a waste of power and effort.

If your core is stable and your upper body strong then you can add extra power by standing and working the bike against the pedals.

Although a smooth pedal stroke is a good thing, why is pedalling in circles the ideal? We didn't evolve to pedal, we evolved to run! Pedal like you run.

Running / Standing climbing uses more muscle groups ergo more energy.

Watch the first climb of a long mountain stage. Other than attacks, are they seated or standing?

I tend to sit/spin stand spin/mash depending on the hill length/gradient and how much of a run up I've had ..my fallback is the super slow climb sat down when I'm totally knadged sometime just getting homes a win 🙂

Although a smooth pedal stroke is a good thing, why is pedalling in circles the ideal? We didn't evolve to pedal, we evolved to run! Pedal like you run.

This is a somewhat specious argument. At the time we evolved, bicycles hadn't been invented. And they are designed to be pedalled - not run upon. Take for example something one stage further removed - say a pogo stick. Presumably you wouldn't suggest people attempt to use a running motion upon it. I assure you they would fall off 8)

Although that doesn't mean that for certain people in certain situations standing on pedals cannot be the most efficient way to pedal.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist.

You've done a good job of keeping your head down up to now, but I think it's time to **** off back to the zoo for another punch-up now matey boy.

so I though here was a good place to seek clarity

you're new here, then? 😉

Didn't Team Sky do a bunch of physiological research...

there's also an aerodynamic component which is real at the speeds the pros climb and will impact on efficiency.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist

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I've got a PhD if we're speculatively waving qualifications around in the hope it'll lend credibility to our positions. How about you start with my point about using arms, then?

If your core is stable and your upper body strong then you can add extra power by standing and working the bike against the pedals.

I'd say this in a nutshell. Wiggins is a fixed cadence diesel seated climber, Froome climbs seated with a huge cadence but gets the saddle for accelerations and attacks. Contador does a lot of climbing out the saddle, and Chris "no I wasn't doping but oddly no WT team would touch me after winning a grand tour" Horner did entire 45min climbs out the saddle which made his competition go "hmmm...."

http://www.velonation.com/news/id/15660/bio-passport-expert-raises-concerns-about-horners-published-biological-passport-values.aspx

It's the same muscles used in different parts of their range. There is also a growing body of evidence to show that core stability and strength aren't as important as once thought.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist.

Is that the same as "I'm an engineer" Lol

It's the same muscles used in different parts of their range.

You could really say the same about pretty much any sort of movement - walking up stairs, picking one's nose (whilst standing obviously). The devil is in the detail.

Enlighten me. Keeping in mind that I am a physiotherapist.

Harold Shipman was a doctor. He just wasn't a very good one!

It all depends on the length of the climb, the gradient, what gears you've got and how far you've already ridden.
In short, do whatever feels most comfortable or productive depending on your priority at that particular moment. On a familiar climb try taking it a gear higher than normal if you're looking to improve your time.

When I rode up Mont Ventoux from Malaucene last summer my lowest gear of 39:25 gave me no option but to get out of the saddle on the steeper sections but for the rest of the hour and three quarters I was seated as much as possible.

You say

It's the same muscles used in different parts of their range.

After I said

In the saddle I can let go of the bars, out of the saddle I'm counter-pulling on the bars so much my arms ached

How about you start with my point about using arms, then?

as you obviously missed them first time around...

When I rode up Mont Ventoux from Malaucene last summer my lowest gear of 39:25 gave me no option but to get out of the saddle on the steeper sections but for the rest of the hour and three quarters I was seated as much as possible

Quite! Same with my Sram XO1 😆

In the words of John Anderson "GLADIATORS READY! PHYSIOTHERAPISTS READY!.....FIGHT!!!!!!" 🙂

In the saddle I can let go of the bars, out of the saddle I'm counter-pulling on the bars so much my arms ached
How about you start with my point about using arms, then?
as you obviously missed them first time around...

I ignored that as pulling on the bars so much that your arms ache is just stupidly inefficient. I know that when I climb standing up there is very little weight on the bars.

If you want to be good at riding up hills, then ride up lots of hills, frequently 🙂
Personally I recommend lots of core strength and flexibility work - seems to help put the power down. Also, get a singlespeed for commuting - gives you no choice but to ride hard up the hills

On the road bike i prefer to stand up and lean forward. That way i can use my full body weight to help the cranks turn over.
If i am sitting, i am just recovering so i can stand up again.

One of the cycling mags' online version had a piece about climbing by Chris Froome (who one presumes might know a thing or two about such things) and it was basically: sit down and spin then every ten minutes or so move up one gear and stand up for thirty seconds to give all your core and support muscles a break then sit down again and drop back down a gear. Now he was talking about the big alpine climbs where even the pros take an hour or so to do the climb but something similar will apply to our "little" hills.

Geraint Thomas or Alex Dowsett also talked about climbing and reckoned sat down with a cadence of 70-80rpm (i.e. about 15-20 below typical road cadence) was the starting point.

Obviously if you are on something like Hardknott Pass at 25%+ then these values are somewhat moot: look at this video

of The Tour of Britain on Honister Pass in 2013, all the riders are in and out of the saddle (steeper stuff starts about 4mins).

I think it can depend on the bike too, my winter road bike weighs about 3kg more than the summer one and I can really feel that if I stand up (60-61kg), on the summer one I can shand up and hoof it over steeper sections quite easily then sit back down and spin again or stay standing for waaay longer tapping away, this doesn't seem to work as well on the heavy girl as all the hoofing doesn't really achieve much. Same goes for my ENDURO bike vs XC, standing up on the ENDURO bike and powering up stuff is a completely pointless exercise as there doesn't seem to be any extra speed achieved!

Weight sooooooooo far back you wheelie 😀

Weight sooooooooo far back you wheelie

Less rolling resistance too...

Sitting generally if you're in for the long run.
I always use the gears for the very purpose they're designed for rather than see them as a challenge.
On the rare occasions I've used a HRM on a 'proper' mountain my rate has always gone up as soon as I stand, yet for the short period of time I ride like that it always feels easier. So feels easier but my HR is up.
As I don't really give a flying flip about that sort of thing I've always just assumed it was because I'd introduced arms and upper body movement (more and different muscles) into the equation.

Cop out answer is that it all depends on the individual and the climb 😀 You can't really apply Froome climbing at a steady pace for 40 minutes where the speeds are high enough for aero to be important against a short sharp MTB climb of a few 100ft where the extra power you can generate standing may offset the longer duration inefficiency. How many pros win sprints seated? But equally how many pros do you see starting their sprint 10 minutes out? 😀 I'd generally stay seated climbing to save a bit of energy but my quickest times over short climbs are all grinding up in pain on the singlespeed... but that is a whole other can of worms of different variables 😀

*Makes note to make sure wanmankylung doesn't provide my physiotherapy treatment*

For me, it comes down to whatever's the most comfortable. I like to stand when it gets really tough and then sit down for a rest on the flatter sections. But that's just me...

Why don't you ask this question on a roadie forum?

Oops, forgot it's nearly all roadies on here 🙂

so had a try today at different elements

standing no issues but just felt more inefficient

sitting and pushing a heavy the climb was okay

but a reasonable cadence/spin worked maybe the best.

Asking on here as where I live need to join the best bits of bridleway with roads alas.

I know from spin class that you definitely use different muscles seated as you do stood up. And the instructor exploits this to great effect during his routine and mixes up the positions to exercise different muscle groups. For a start relative to yor upper body the Angle your thigh makes is more acute at the TDC position, so your Gleuts are more stretched and used far more than when stood up as your thighs never get anywhere near the same acute angle to your upper body, as your body is more straight. Imagine a time trial position vs. Contadoor out of the saddle, the body is in a completely different position, therefore different muscles have to be used, or dominate.