[Closed] Riser bar height - current thinking?

Downhillers run long stems and or high bars as the top of the forks get in the way... Well that's part of it

Downhillers often ride straighter rougher tracks - and slightly longer stems are more stable. I notice a big difference in stability between 35 and 50mm stems.

And once a bike is pointing steeply downhill the reach increases and the stack decreases, a bike made for downhill should be shorter reach and higher stack when on level ground (as geometry is quoted).

I've even seen the kinematics for DH bikes being optimised for standing pedalling pointing downhill (so your centre of mass is completely different to seated pedalling, as are the forces being applied).

How far can you manual Chief?

Because. other than raising the front wheel with slightly less effort.

high was great for manualling

@gwurkers maybe it was the placebo effect? But the thing about the placebo effect is... it is an actual effect.

How far can you manual Chief?

Because. other than raising the front wheel with slightly less effort.

I'm hopeless at holding a manual. As I said, this is my experiences for me and how I ride (and obviously I'd love to ride better but practice time is very limited with two small children and my own business).

But that was my point - it's a bit easier to lift the front wheel with the bars a bit higher. Nothing I can't work around though with a lower bar position. It's easier to initiate a manual on my hardtail than my full-sus because the latter is longer out back - but the latter is easier to hold up for longer.

I liked the higher bar position - I was feeling quite converted after riding some trails I know very well. And then I hooked up with my mates, some of whom are a fair bit faster than me, and we rode some of those trails again - and riding that bit faster to chase them I was struggling for front-end grip. Dropped the bars a bit, problem solved.

This thread started off naively ignorant and has evolved into utterly idiotic by a few contributors who have gone so far into overthinking and geeking out they seem to have forgotten that the fundamental skills required to ride a bike well still plays the greatest part. (ie. the rider)

wrecker - Member

is the old philosophy that high rise bars are better for gravity type riding now defunct? Will we see flat bars ridden a bit more for enduro and DH? Or does it still hold true that a high rise bar is better for all but XC?

There are two considerations here, bar height and riser vs flat.
Bar height is personal.
Risers are better because they look cooler.
Flat bars are for XC jhey-boys.

If downhill bikes are better suited to the steep, why then did someone quote enduro bikes as having a more rearward weight bias than a V10.

Downhillers run long stems and or high bars as the top of the forks get in the way... Well that's part of it

Well, no... because most of them run so many spacers and rise you could put a 0mm direct mount stem on them.

if you're racing and searching for tenths then it would be worth finding the best bar heights for each track

Warner would tell you that you were wrong, where possible you should be keeping your bike exactly the same for consistency. Maybe tweaking compression and PSI here and there and if need be... as in going from Champerry to somewhere flat... spring rate at the rear.

Warner would tell you that you were wrong, where possible you should be keeping your bike exactly the same for consistency

If downhill bikes are better suited to the steep, why then did someone quote enduro bikes as having a more rearward weight bias than a V10.

The weight distribution of any bike when in the neutral attack position is easy to work out: Chainstay length divided by wheelbase gives you the percentage on the front wheel and whatever is left is on the rear wheel.

mikewsmith - Member
Use whatever gets you in the right position

Chief, then either your maths are wrong when taking into account the location of rider mass or the most successful DH team ever are getting the weight distribution wildly wrong. They aim for 50/50 weight distribution on an average 5 percent slope which means that they aimed with the V10 for a 45/55 weight distribution.

It stands to reason then that your enduro bike that is designed for shallower tracks would be better suited to a steeper track than the v10. Chainlines argument for longer reaches in enduro, like you, is also predicated on the basis of shallower tracks.

You are simply calculating weight distrubution of the bike under static sag, ie not weighted by the rider.

Chief's formula assumes all the weight is going through the BB ie you are standing on the pedals and not supporting any of your weight through your hands (I assume that is a "neutral attack position"). Also level ground and it ignores the bike weight component. For 50-50 a fair bit of weight must be supported through the hands even allowing for bike weight and a slope.

and yet they are managing to fo that with risers and 200mm forks.....

and yet they are managing to fo that with risers and 200mm forks.....

I can do that too for a five minute downhill run. But I don't want to do it for every corner on a five hour ride!

Also, any decent DHer has more upper body strength than a typical MTBer.

[b]"But that was my point - it's a bit easier to lift the front wheel with the bars a bit higher."[/b]

Which If you could actually hold a manual. You'd know. has very little to do with whether a bike is easy to hold a manual on or not.

My point here is simply that you are overthinking pretty much everything. (possibly because of your limited skills and time to gain them).

I can set my bars to MY optimum height very very quickly and accurately. Because I do have a ton of experience in both setting up bikes and riding them and know exactly how I like my bars set up on every type of bike I ride. infact I'm incredibly particular about bar set up.
However. none of your theories on bar height would get any of my bar heights on any of my bikes close. Why? because you've never actually met me and have no idea how I like my bikes set up.
For an experienced rider this subject really is that simple.

Wrecker. I apologise if you felt I was insulting you. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

However. none of your theories on bar height would get any of my bar heights on any of my bikes close.

I'm not sure what theories you're referring to? I thought I'd just provided some anecdotal evidence of what I'd found for me on one of my bikes.

I did think I'd made it clear that the higher bar had no bearing on the ease or otherwise of holding a manual. Clearly you're a more advanced rider than me - but maybe I'm a more advanced reader? 😉

I think you'll find what you actually said was "high was great for manualling" Something you cannot actually do.
But ok. have it your way.

Chief, you need more upper body strength to cope with flat bars. Part of the point of risers is to have you in a slightly more neutral position that fatigues you less on long descenfs.

I think you'll find what you actually said was "high was great for manualling"

Which I then clarified in my subsequent posts as you rained down smug pedantry from your ivory tower of amazing skillz.

Sometimes you do provide some valuable insight - but mostly you tell us we're all wrong and that you know better but then fail to share your wisdom. I sincerely hope you're not a teacher and that if you are a parent you're not like this with your children...

Ok. This just got a little bit too weird

Apology accepted gwurk but you need to turn your surfmatt setting down (to at least 8 please)

That's a new one on me @wrecker, what's a surfmatt setting?

It's like the Prometheus school of running away.

what's a surfmatt setting?

It's a level of awesomeness, gwurk is on eleven 🙂

Awesomeness sure sounds better than having your liver eaten by an eagle every day.

The queue for having gwurks babies, must indeed be a long one !)

The surfmatt scale is the standard international unit of measure for the most awesome level of AWESOMENESS. Prolonged use of this this particular type of awesomeness can lead to ridicule and eventually flounce. Stay safe folks.

Chief, you need more upper body strength to cope with flat bars. Part of the point of risers is to have you in a slightly more neutral position that fatigues you less on long descenfs.

Again, it isn't risers vs flats, it's total stack height (stack plus upper headset cup plus spacers plus stem plus bar rise).

For a given reach, a lower stack height will put more weight on your hands simply by leaning on the bars. To weight a high stack height you need to use your arms and shoulder more to press the bars down - but it is easier on your core because it promotes a more vertical body position.

But total reach (reach plus stem minus bar back sweep plus a percentage of bar width) affects things hugely.

Futon - The accuracy of that statement is so true it's creepy.
And talking of creepiness. Seems a few of you need to get out a little more.
and talking about not getting out. You managed to ride a bike since this thread started yet Chief?

Interesing(ish) thread...

THe thing i love about bikes is you can play about with the ‘settings’ for relatively little money..I’m a sciaentist at heart, and like to fettle!!

So..I had 740mm flat bars and a flat 50mm stem... It was ‘OK’, but never really felt great...

I wanted a little bit more height.. I got some 30mm Renthal carbon lite bars (740mm) and a 50mm Renthal stem (+/- 5mm).. Immediately the bike felt more ‘fun’ with 30mm more height on the bars... FAR easier to manual (literallly, give a little tug and you’re up....fnar fnar) and more stable on the trails...

I’ve flipped the stem and moved a few spacers so now I’m 25mm up from the previous flat bar setting - just feels ‘betterer’...

DrP

You managed to ride a bike since this thread started yet Chief?

Thanks for your concern! 😉

I've just got back from spending an hour on my hardtail, with my toddler on his balance bike, playing on the little jumps etc on the derelict grit pitch near my house.

Yesterday it was practical biking, riding to school with my daughter on her bike and then towing it back and then riding into town and back with my son on the toddler seat.

The day before I was out on a night ride, mostly in the woods, for three hours.

You managed to ride a bike since this thread started yet Chief?

...I’m a sciaentist at heart...

One that can prescribe medication too!

But yeah, these threads pour over the various theories doing the rounds and we get a few [i]"geometry extremists"[/i] and [i]"riding Gods"[/i] telling us the various ways in which we're all wrong, despite them it is still interesting to try and understand how the layout of a bike, the positioning and dimensions of the various components affect the control, comfort and efficiency of a bike for it's rider...

I was watching one of the old Sprung videos last night, turn of the century riding 15+ years ago on somewhat different looking bikes, it all still looks pretty fast 'n' stylish today, I don't think the actual riding suffered too much for the lack of "modern" geometry, perhaps it is possible to over-analyse...

I like my wider, lower bars and longer TT now, but I was able to do a proper X-up on my older bike with a shorter TT and trimmed down (2" riser) bars; different tools I used at different periods of my life for slightly different things...

I've just got back from spending an hour on my hardtail, with my toddler on his balance bike, playing on the little jumps etc on the derelict grit pitch near my house.

I have lots of kids so know very well what it can be like trying cram bike riding in around work and a family too.

Calm down Wrecker and stop looking for stuff to be offended by.

Despie the experience I have. The reason I am so non-committal on giving out advice on the subject of bar height is because it is massively subjective and as seen here it's very very easy to give out poor advice. Especially if you are partial to listening to fashion media, rumour and blind information regurgitation.

to paraphrase Cookea:

[b]There is no CORRECT height[/b]

cool. Glad to hear it. similar sort of scedule for me except I rode for work those 3 days too.
You can learn a lot from riding with kids (and I'm not taking the piss here at all)

If I rode with half the determination and commitment my son does I'd be sending it big!

In recent months I've been taking a break from riding to work every day because it was taking too much out of me combined with the bigger MTB rides and the gym work. Low bar squats are nicer* when you have relatively fresh legs! Plus it's steep and slippery on my preferred route in so relatively high risk of crashing (and messing up my not fully healed AC joint) and hauling sticky winter tyres on the tarmac sections gets wearing.

*Niceness value still very low...

There is no CORRECT height

I agree. And if you can avoid being tempted to cut your steerer fashionably short then it's cheap and easy to test what works for you, usually without having to change your bars.

There is no CORRECT height

Amen!

I agree. And if you can avoid being tempted to cut your steerer fashionably short then it's cheap and easy to test what works for you, usually without having to change your bars.

Yep!