[Closed] RIP 26"

fox 26 forks don't clear 650b tyres anymore they changed the shape of the fork bridge to make it "stiffer" and it now has much less clearace.
coincidence? i think not, just more proof that its all about making existing parts redundant so they can sell you the new parts.

[img] [/img]

I think 27.5 is too close to 26 to justify a whole new standard of bike. The industry will love it as they have something to do, but the average joe will find its such a small change its barely noticeable.

However I think the best thing to come from this might be an opening of minds, folk conceiving their own bikes rather than buying off the peg. The new wheel size illustrates that there are many valid recipes of bike, and you simply choose the right style for your terrain, your size, your style. Gone are the days of "I can't ride I a 29er as I ride Surrey hills, and they don't do singletrack" and all the other BS.

I often use surfing as a comparison:
Fin set up: zero fins to five fins
Fin flex patterns
Fin placement
Concaves
Templates
Rail shape
Step decks
Materials and flex patterns in the board
Tail shape
Length
Width
Thickness
Discipline and style
There are a million variations of surfboard... And they are all good at something. And the surfing community won't tell you off for having a five fin bonzer egg, won't tell you it's no good or can't go round corners.

Mountain bikers... Free your mind and your wheels will follow.

[img] [/img]

toys19 - Member

Hmm looking at macavitys link it makes you wonder. They say 650b allows you to yse normal forks (except rockshox) . I wonder if this is a bit of work by the bike companies to reduce their compatibility issues.

This one depends a bit on what you consider as "fits". You can put a good size 650b wheel/tyre in a lyrik and it'll be fine if you're in california but there's bugger all mud clearance, frinstance. Quite a lot of articles on this are a bit dust-oriented.

looking at the designs of some 650b frames i've seen the mud clearance thing is a common problem, most seem to be 26" frames with the chain/seatstay braces moved about 5mm.

NW, you have pissed on my chips now, I was getting all cheery.
I expect and hope the optimists are right, I'm sure in 10 years time there will still be wicked rad superlight mega tough 26ers. But if there is not I just don't want to miss out on progess or be excluded from the party.

Interesting comparison with surfing.

There are an abundance of different surfboard designs around now but it';s only relatively recently that people have been open minded about trying them. 15 years ago you would have been stared at for having a five fin bonzer egg, or anything other than a white 3 fin shortboard like the pros use

What does hold true is that many different designs of surfboards will work for a given person but some will work better for that person than others at particular places and some will just give that person a different feeling and surfing experience if they are often surfing the same place.

Changing things up can be fun and it's having fun that counts right?

Ride what you like, whatever makes you happy and thats all that matters unless someone is paying you for it. I think 26 stuff will be available way longer than it's important for anyone old enough to be reading this!

looking at the designs of some 650b frames i've seen the mud clearance thing is a common problem, most seem to be 26" frames with the chain/seatstay braces moved about 5mm.

I was feeling quite keen on getting a rigid singlespeed 29er for next winter until I looked at three 29ers on my last group ride (Swift, Solaris, FF29) and noticed they were running much lower volume tyres than my 26er but still had far less mud clearance.

I've already had some interaction between the rear tyre and the front mech cable boss on my Patriot. I don't think 650b wheels would help that much...

So 650b frames and forks* are going to be great for 26" wheels - just with UKtastic mud/tyre clearances?

Sold!

*Apart from UK designed 650 frames of course - they'll probably take 29" tyres no problem.

b45her - Member
looking at the designs of some 650b frames i've seen the mud clearance thing is a common problem, most seem to be 26" frames with the chain/seatstay braces moved about 5mm.

Roll up, roll up, frame manufacturers, get your press fit BB shells here. Claim they're stiffer, save money on frame manufacture without those pesky threaded shells, and make room for wider placed chainstays to fit those bigger wheels into your existing 26" frame designs with minimal effort, just lengthen the rear end a bit. As a bonus the BBs wear out faster and they're harder for home mechanics to maintain which helps our suppliers and dealers "grow" too.

Evolution, marketing, conspiracy, or cartel? They've got themselves pretty well organised it seems along their own interests, they must have learnt a few things from the UCI in how to ignore the best interests of mountain bikers.

Unfortunately the only way 26" won't die a slow lingering death is if 650b sales flop really badly for 2-3 years. Let's start an international boycott now!

For the record, I like my 26ers and 29er, and 700c for that matter, but I don't want 650b at the cost of 26".

Roll up, roll up, frame manufacturers, get your press fit BB shells here. Claim they're stiffer, save money on frame manufacture without those pesky threaded shells, and make room for wider placed chainstays to fit those bigger wheels into your existing 26" frame designs with minimal effort, just lengthen the rear end a bit. As a bonus the BBs wear out faster and they're harder for home mechanics to maintain which helps our suppliers and dealers "grow" too.

BB/PF30 - same 68/73 width as any BSA BB, but a bit rubbish, agreed.
Anyone designing a 650B by adding stay length and moving bridges only on a 26" frame should be fired ) If you ever see one that backs up that suspicion I'd be amazed.

All I'm saying on this one is that to me, moving to a 650B HT from a 26" is like going from 100 straight to 120mm tapered forks. No biggie, may be subtly 'better', maybe a waste of £ and though I may like to choose, I wouldn't overly bothered which I rode. Your call.

The best bit of all the 650B stuff is people adding 650B wheels and low-tread 2" tyres to a 26" bike that had 26 x 2.4" before and calling it an upgrade.. more like a step closer to a 60's touring bike, if that's what you're after )

When are Surly going to make '650B +' anyway? That, I want.

Just seen the new Banshee 29er prototype and have to say I'm now interested.. looks awesome!

[img] [/img]

I live near Malaga where there are roughly 50% riding road bikes and 50% riding mtb's.Everyone seems to have the latest Fox front forks and many full suspension.Thing is that here people are not all 6ft plus so 95% ride 26ers.In my LBS today he has 21 mtb's with 26" wheels and only 3 29ers.As for 650B's they have never even heard of them.The market for cycles is much bigger here than the U.K so chances are nothing much is likely to change

Very similar situation in France, you hardly see any 29s (apart from some crap ones in Decathlon). I rode a randonee last summer with about 1500 bikes, the only 29s I saw was a group of 6 Belgians and all the locals were taking the piss out of them.

Same in Germany.

I hear people saying that 29er is perfect for the kind of riding Germans do (although I suspect they overlook the proper mountainy bit of the country, and think it's all fireroad/schneise trails), but in reality, I have never seen a single 29er on the trails ever.

I only actually know of 1 29er, and that is a colleague who test rode a few and decided that it was the best ride for the fast trail stuff.

650b is barely even on the German radar afaict (although the online stores do stock 650b bits, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is clever cashing in on the gullible UK market).

None of the top German brands do 650b yet afaict. Several/most are now just putting a 29er in their fast XC/race HT line up.

I though Ghost were German?

Same in Germany.

I hear people saying that 29er is perfect for the kind of riding Germans do (although I suspect they overlook the proper mountainy bit of the country, and think it's all fireroad/schneise trails), but in reality, I have never seen a single 29er on the trails ever.

I only actually know of 1 29er, and that is a colleague who test rode a few and decided that it was the best ride for the fast trail stuff.

650b is barely even on the German radar afaict (although the online stores do stock 650b bits, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is clever cashing in on the gullible UK market).

None of the top German brands do 650b yet afaict. Several/most are now just putting a 29er in their fast XC/race HT line up.

Just to concur - never seen one here at all - and that is on the dusty parkways of Cologne , where fashion and being seen on the trendy is important!
Shops are noticably devoid of them. A bike shop in Berlin only had a handful - and that was because they were a Specialized dealership

The surfboard analogy is bollix though, most boards are custom made and in a size to suit you, spares or accessories are not plagued with compatibility issues, there is no standard size that we have all bought into that will force us to buy new kit when the standard changes. The oppirtunity to choose or spec what you want is abundant.

In fact imagine how brilliant mountain biking would be if I could buy a custom made dh bike that was made to my dimensions, with wheels, tyres and forks to fit at say 24.75inch? It is hardly likely to precipitate due to this new standard, and chipps assertion that 26ers will dissapear..

I don't think anyone is being closed minded about this charliethebikemonger, the industry is being closed minded by removing a wheel size choice. I'm all for 29ers, 36ers whatever, as long as I can choose 26.

jameso - Member

BB/PF30 - same 68/73 width as any BSA BB, but a bit rubbish, agreed.
Anyone designing a 650B by adding stay length and moving bridges only on a 26" frame should be fired ) If you ever see one that backs up that suspicion I'd be amazed.

All I'm saying on this one is that to me, moving to a 650B HT from a 26" is like going from 100 straight to 120mm tapered forks.

Doesn't just about every convertible frame work on that basis? Well, not moving bridges, but adding chainstay length with dropouts. 26er frames with bodges.

For the second- you're right, but it's not when you make the change that it's important, it's when you don't want to make the change but you can't find any 100mm straight forks any more and your frame won't take a 120mm tapered one 😉

I tried a 29er and two days later had one on order. I'm not saying it is better than a 26er it's just that the 29er suited me better. It felt more comfortable and was certainly quicker over a variety of local trails compared to my 26er.

FWIW, I was at Afan and Cwmcarn this weekend and despite the trails being packed only saw 10 or so 29ers and one of those was mine 🙂

10 29ers at afan must be some kind of record, i live local to the place and ride there quite often, the only time ive seen more than 3 29ers in one day was when the flat lander's invaded to do the gravity enduro.
don't know what its like in other parts of the country but in south wales 29" wheels seem to be for the hardcore xc types and beginner's

Bear in mind that I really saw a lot of bikes over the two days and mine and a mates were two of the 10...

EDIT - maybe it was 11! Just remembered that two of my mates had 29ers 🙂

kjcc25 - Member

I tried a 29er and two days later had one on order. I'm not saying it is better than a 26er it's just that the 29er suited me better. It felt more comfortable and was certainly quicker over a variety of local trails compared to my 26er.

See, I tried a 26er and a week later I had one on order, because it was moer comfortable and quicker than my 26er 😉

can i ask the folk who mock saying im now on 650b now cos ive gone from 2.1 to 2.4 tyres on my 26 wheels if they prefer it..?

ever wondered if the larger circumference is whats nice and not the width that comes with it....mmmmm

genuine question..

as thats what i like about it... i like the bigger circumference but with out having to have the extra width that comes with running a bigger tyre on a 26" wheel..

2.25's on my 650 bike so i get the to the best of both worlds for 95 percent of the rides i do..bigger wheel with out the baloon tyres

just my preference mind not saying its better or im faster becase of it but i like how it feels.

not really, most people use bigger tyres so they can run lower pressures without risking smashing rims up.

fair does...ive always prefered quite a firm tyre...seems where all different after all ..guess its just aswell theres a choice out there.....

im really suprised the stick this new option gets on here given how niche look at me im cool it normally is with bands/music/vices/woodburners/vacuum cleaners/razors and i remember a what pen thread a while back with folk showin off theirs saying how good it is, great if thats your thing, thats why life is interesting surley.. its just another choice take it or leave it..i think choice is great be it pens or wheels

This niche isn't niche enough though - it's popular!

ahhhh got ya..never thought of that... 🙂

I rode a randonee last summer with about 1500 bikes, the only 29s I saw was a group of 6 Belgians and all the locals were taking the piss out of them.

As a luddite, I do not intend to stop riding my (admittedly antique-ish) 26" Bontrager... and if rim availability ever becomes a problem, I'll just get Keith to roll down some Mavics, [url= http://www.dirtragmag.com/webrag/physics-and-dumpster-diving-interview-keith-bontrager ]like he did first time round[/url]. 😉

Edit - I shoulda read the thread.... JImmAwelon has it:

Someone will always be able to do that for us with a longer circumference rim if we choose to stick in the past.

Doesn't just about every convertible frame work on that basis?

On the 2.4" tyres on 26" rims point - I used to use 2.4 rubber queens on my 26" rigid SS. They were roughly 650B OD. TBH I'd prefer that tyre on a wider rim to a 650B x 2.1". Volume, PSi and contact area counts for a lot. Surly's 29+ is a similar thing.

The old system of measuring OD and altering rim dia to account for tyre volume was a good one, a standards nightmare that would produce a hundred threads here but the 650B+ tyre that I'd like to see is just a 29" OD based on that idea. 650Bx3.3" or so.
2.4" on a 26" is like 26+, or 650B. Volume of tyre can have the same or greater effect than simply rim diameter. Give me a fat 650B rim-tyre over a skinny 29er wheel.

2 ways to get the same result - less easy to hang a marketing tag on. And chucking in a few more variables would really confuse the "I want to see test data!" lot ) Don't think, feel.

can i ask the folk who mock saying im now on 650b now cos ive gone from 2.1 to 2.4 tyres on my 26 wheels if they prefer it..?

I'm running 2.4s on 26"-wheels on an Mmmbop in the Peak and it's made a massive difference. The bike rolls over stuff like a 29er, hooks up on loose stuff like never before, accelerates faster and demonstrates arrow-like stability even when battering mindlessly through rock gardens... erm, oh, sorry, I just made that up. Mostly it feels like a 26"-wheeled mountain bike with fat tyres on that take a lot of sting out of the ride of a very harsh frame. With faster, narrow tyres it feels quicker on smooth surfaces, but much harsher, but that's tyre volume, not wheel size.

I guess smaller volume 650Bb tyres would fit in the frame - people do it - and probably with astute tyre choice be lighter, but I suspect they'd also be harsher. And if I used larger volume tyres they wouldn't fit in the frame and if they did, your question would be whether a 650b with 2.4s feels like a 29er.

It's all a bit princess and pea isn't it? And given that actually you still see relatively few 29ers out there in the real world, let alone 650b-wheeled bikes, I'm quite happy to just go riding and not worry about it.

How many top-end bikes are sold every year in the UK? How many of those are really going to be 650b? How many years will it take before that means the majority of bikes out there are using the new wheel size? And who cares.

It's all a bit princess and pea isn't it? And given that actually you still see relatively few 29ers out there in the real world, let alone 650b-wheeled bikes, I'm quite happy to just go riding and not worry about it.

How many top-end bikes are sold every year in the UK? How many of those are really going to be 650b? How many years will it take before that means the majority of bikes out there are using the new wheel size? And who cares.

I agree, there's too much worrying over all this.

I was out last night for the weekly night ride with a local group. We ride twisty and quite techy woodland singletrack, mainly cheeky trails. Out of 20 or so of us there were a complete mixture of bikes, both 26" and 29" representing all categories of each - full-suss trail bikes; long-forked, race, singlespeed and rigid hardtails; steel, Alu, carbon and titanium frames; retro rides right up to £3-4k dream bikes. There isn't any piss-taking about what each other chooses to ride, and wheel size is hardy mentioned apart from the odd bit of banter.

The sport is alive and well for me, there are few poor bikes out there these days, and the amount of choice available to us is better than ever. Running a 26er and a 29er is the perfect bike quiver for me, and both are different enough to give me a buzz when out riding. Whether 650b makes headway into our world time will tell, but i'm certain i'll still be ragging it round the woods every Thursday night regardless of wheel size.

I'm also still yet to see a 650b anywhere in the flesh... 😉

BWD, you should write for a mag 🙂

I'm quite happy to just go riding and not worry about it.

You don't think any of us worry about it when we're actually riding do you?? The worrying is saved for the moments when sat in front of the computer wondering which 1st World Problem to grumble about 🙂

On a more serious note it probably doesn't bother the vast majority of riders. The people it bothers the most are those in the market for a new bike who are now even more confused about where to put their money. I was flapping over 26er v 29er just a couple of months ago and I found that irritating enough. To think that only a few weeks later the industry has decided that 650b is a genuine 3rd option.

As I've said on probably more than one of the wheel size threads it's great if you can genuinely try lots of bikes before you buy, but most people don't have the opportunity or cash to throw at endless demos.

whos worrying like..i do hope nobody worries over wheel sizes...or anything to do with the choice of bike gear or any other gear to do with there hobby...

blimey charlie..its just llike having a choice of fork 100/120/130/140/150/160 710 bars 720 bars and so on but please dont worry just have fun with whats available...

jameso - Member

If it's designed as convertible frame via dropouts etc then that's ok, they just re-position the axle. I meant someone re-speccing a 'new!' 650B bike based on simply those changes to a fixed-dropout 26".

The axle doesn't know how it gets where it is, though... If you put the wheel in the same place with dropouts or with longer chainstays (and a wee height change) it amounts to the same thing.

Maybe it's just me but I'm assuming that a convertible 26er/650b will be designed as a 26er or 650b bike with a factory bodge, rather than being an uncompromised 26er and an uncompromised 650b bike.

Maybe it's just me but I'm assuming that a convertible 26er/650b will be designed as a 26er or 650b bike with a factory bodge, rather than being an uncompromised 26er and an uncompromised 650b bike.

I can't see a future for this either, why compromise months or even years of frame design and testing by accomodating two wheel sizes which less face it have a difference of 25mm or 1 inch rim diameter in reality?

Quick question for if/when this 650b thing really takes off or becomes the main stream. Can you run your current 26" frame and wheels with a 650b specific fork.

Say I was in the market for a new fork, I look around, decide I like the new Rockshox Pike, I could buy the 650b version that should work fine with current set up but will also be usuable in the future if/when 26" becomes a dying breed.

its just llike having a choice of fork 100/120/130/140/150/160 710 bars 720 bars and so on

But it's not though. That's the crux. I have a 26er full susser and a 29er rigid single speed. There are no compatibility issues that would prevent me from putting different forks, handlebars, stems on etc etc. I can't swap my wheels though. What it IS like is if all the fork manufacturers decide to have tapered steerers only, leaving a load of cyclists with frames they can't upgrade the forks on. This is people's fear; being left with a bike that is "old hat".

Say I was in the market for a new fork, I look around, decide I like the new Rockshox Pike, I could buy the 650b version that should work fine with current set up but will also be usuable in the future if/when 26" becomes a dying breed.

Yes, if the headtube and steerer standard were compatible... and you were ok with the change in geometry such as slacker head and seat angles and increased BB height.

How much longer is a 650b fork compared to a 26" one though? 1cm? That's less than the difference between different brands' forks for the same wheelsize...

How much longer is a 650b fork compared to a 26" one though? 1cm? That's less than the difference between different brands' forks for the same wheelsize...

It'll be 25mm longer or thereabouts... the difference between a 26" rim and a 650b rim.

How much longer is a 650b fork compared to a 26" one though? 1cm? That's less than the difference between different brands' forks for the same wheelsize...

Exactly. And if it is just a small difference that can be compensated by internal headset or an offset bush, or even simple tyre choice.

It'll be 25mm longer or thereabouts... the difference between a 26" rim and a 650b rim.

Surely that's the diameter. You'll want half of that, 1.5 inches / 2 = ~19mm?