[Closed] riding past trail diversions !

Block the trail with logs and brash, as well as taping it?

Unfortunately I don't think any signs will do it. Could you put lots of branches or something over the trail? I think you've got to make it more hassle to ride than it's worth. I know this isn't how it should be but it's all I think will work.

Maybe this explanation on a notice on the closed trail.

Nothing will stop the thick heads working their way onto the trail to ride it as they regard it as their 'right'. Most effective, if prohibitively expensive, way to do this that I have seen was at Swinley when they were filming bits for the Potter film. They had secirity guys on access points.

"STOP RIDING THIS SECTION OF F*****G TRAIL WHILE WE FIX IT!"

or

"FISHING WIRE AT NECK HEIGHT BEYOND THIS POINT.....please follow the diversion"

Yep I likey.....................I'll pass both of those suggestions to the Rangers 😈

Happens all the time with the trail building in Dalby.
You'll never ever get a complete closure as some total knob will always ride down the closed route - as has been said before, they think it's their God given right even though they've had sweet **** all to do with the building.

You even get it on under construction sections which obviously are nowhere near being finished and don't actually go anywhere.

I used to take great pleasure, when we were building Crosscliffe section in Dalby, when asked where the trail went, answering with "back the way you've come, didn't you see the ****ing signs!?!" I doubt they'd learn from it though...

Why do mountain bikers ignore signs?

We've been doing it on all ROW for years.

Some people seem to assume that because the start of a trail looks finished to their eyes, then it is finished and the rest of the trail will be finished too. You see it a lot a Glentress. If people see a trail where the hardcore is down they'll assume it's good to ride even if it's blocked off. Perhaps they think it's not open yet merely because the waymarking signs haven't been put up yet or something. They don't understand that they will damage the trail and delay its opening for everyone.

There seems to be a common assumption that for some reason trail closures only apply to "other people", too. After all, if it's just them who sneaks by and rides the trail, how much damage can one rider/group do?

Once people have started to ignore trail closure signs it can become a habit so they'll ignore them even if the trails beyond are obviously incomplete. Then they get to feel special because they've ridden something before everyone else has had a chance to.

Ignoring diversions is possibly compounded because while some trails are closed for matinenance, others are closed due to forestry operations. In the latter case there is often implicit and sometimes explicit guidance from officials that it's OK to ignore the diversions at weekends. Again that could lead to the ignoring of diversion signs being habitual.

I can't think of what you can do with signage beyond what you're currently doing without being deliberately rude and/or confrontational. Something like "Don't be SELFISH - follow the diversions!", with SELFISH in really big letters? I don't know how well MTBers will respond to moral pressure, though!

Edit: ScienceOfficer made a good point while I was typing my comment. Lots of MTBers (on here anyway) seem to regard riding on footpaths and the like as something to be proud of. Ignoring signage is a way of sticking it to the man!

Caltrops or punji sticks

A bluntly-worded sign ("DON'T RIDE THIS OR YOU'LL WRECK IT, YOU DICK") with a log thick enough to catch chainrings on. Anyone going past that isn't going to be deterred by anything.

Or maybe a more detailed sign with the full explanation like you've given above? Some people are simply ignorant (in the not knowing sense, rather than the rude sense).

Do you put anything on your trailmaps? Or are the people doing this unlikely to be stumping up for one anyway?

FWIW I think you do outstanding work Rik, can't wait to get back down there for my first visit of the year!

Just put:

'Don't be a d1ckhead, or you will be banned fae Riks Bike Shed.'

I am registered with PRS so feel free to pay me any royalties that will gush forth from the use of this 'ditty'.

In all seriousness, just be frank.

I like TJ's punji sticks suggestion. 🙂 How about a hidden pit full of venomous snakes? Any bikes found within it could be sold to help fund the trails...

Warning: Deep Excavation! Do Not Enter!

or

Warning: Furious LBS owner! Do Not Enter!

+

Diversions until further notice

You know, like when you're supposed to shout 'Fire' instead of 'Police' because it gets more attention. Saying that a 'trail' or 'path' is simply closed for maintenance won't put people off, but perhaps suggesting that their lives are in peril by crossing the tape may make them think otherwise...

What Science officer said.

"It's really quite simple"

It took a paragraph for you to explain it, so not simple really.

I did put a longer term closure on the maps I put out ( as they get printed in the shop it's easy) but that didn't make much difference. Anybody coming into the the shop gets told straight up not to ride the closed bits (and why) so I'd be suprised if it's them..

I do think that it's an endimic problem of attitude tho within the mtb community, I know Paul Masson oop north gets just as hacked off as me and Andy and Tally at the Stanes get it too.

Peer pressure ?? If you see it happening give a shout??

It really does put us even further down the priority list with land owners and managers; it all gets noticed, just like the freeloaders parking outside the estate and ridding in. Then when I go looking to justify new trail all I get back from the estate is WHY SHOULD WE when it just brings us hassle/expense/no income/extra work etc....

The estate has to be completely polite and reasonable in all it's signage as you can imagine, so strongly worded is about as far as it'll ever get unfortunately.

Aye, a paragraph - it's no' exactly rocket surgery!!

Diversion ->
For trail maintenance

ie you shouldn't ride it

What could be more simple than following an arrow

I have to admit to riding past one or two signs in the past at different trail centres 😳

but 9 times out of ten they're there because of forestry operation, which aren't running at Weekends and the trail is 100% ridable and passable
never ridden on one which was having actual trail maintenance as far as I know.

If I knew why it was shut as in your example I wouldn't ride it.
each time I've come across one it's been a sign saying closed. end of. no explanation. often with tape which has already broken.
Not an excuse I know.

I think a lot of people would accept it they know it was for actual trail maintenance.

So a clear sign explaining would do it for me (like you've already done)
and few logs would stop the majority of what's left

a lot of people do appreciate the effort that guys like yourself put in

but sadly you'll never stop everybody

When the red was being made more sustainable, there was an explanation along the lines of:

"trail closed until XXXX date. This is to allow the new trail to harden & become durable enough for years of mountain biking to come. If the trail is used before XXXX date, the surface will be damaged & will last months, not years, so please don't use.
There is a diversion in place, please use this instead."

I don't know if it worked for everyone but it certainly worked for us. If people see a diversion but don't know why it is there, then the chances are they will just ignore it. I assume most people think it's Health & Safety rather than for the good of the trail.
A brief explanation as to why the diversion is necessary may make more people heed it.

I'd think about putting dates/times on the signs as well. As ChrisL says, a lot of people (sometimes correctly) assume that diversions can be ignored at certain times (e.g. no forestry work at weekends) or they hear some spraff on an internet forum about how the trail work is actually finished and just needs signage/tidying up/etc.

A little bit of detail on why the trail is shut, at what times/days it's shut and when it will re-open might help.

EDIT: Looks like stumpy beat me to it!

Agree with Mr Agreeable, no matter how many signs you put up, people will ride it, because they think it won't matter if just they ride it this once or it doesn't apply to them. Put some big obsticals down across the trail to make it a pointless ride (NB whilst considering health and safety issues of course 😉 ).

Maybe really mess up the entrance?

Leave the first 100m looking completely impassible until the whole lot is ready?

Still leaves the world full of selfish twunts, but at least they not riding the trail?

Rik
Could try a few fence posts, field gates and some [i]barbed wire[/i] 😈 at entrance to trail section being worked on, might look a bit more purposefull than red tape. Extra work yes but given the construction rules trailbuilders are having to work under now something along the lines of what builders/construction industry do might have to be adopted.

BIG board @ trailhead, target cars as they come into car park 😉 with a flyer???

[img] [/img]

Might work?

All good suggestions, keep them coming and I'll pass them all on to the rangers.

The Halo Trust who de-mine most of the world are in the next village, I wonder if I could ask some of their experts to knock me up some rim (but not ankle) destroying devices 😈 ! That would work and I might sell a few more wheels 😀

I think stumpy has the best way - folk are seeing what looks like an intact trail and thinking its closed mon / fri 9-5 for the workers not until it settles in.

Lots of hawthorn trimmings?

Evil, bot potentially genius as it would rot away before the trail opens?

Mountain bikers in ignorant ****'s shocker!!

You rant about them not paying to park, you rant about them wrecking your trails, you rant about everything to do with bikers. Have you not worked this out yet?

Bikers dont really give two figs about other people or trail users.

Personally, i think your rant is more than valid and as suggested you should make the entrance a PITA to get through. Maybe a sign saying there is barbed wire laid across the trail even if there isnt. Hopefully, those who would normally ignore you will finally think again.

Hey Hobo, all this trail work is just for you my friend; so that you can come here and ride without complaining quite so much about the roots and muddy bits 😉 .

Justified rants only from this quarter, I'm just sick of doing twice what I've already finished. If the entry fee's too much, it's a no brainer, go use a cheaper trail and we'll all be happy.

Things I hate about trail diversions....

The one time you've driven miles to a trail, it's diverted and your favourite bit is not part of it. The urge to ignore the diversion is high, but I resist. But personally the lack of information is about the most frustrating side of it - it's diverted - why, what's being done? How long will it take? When can I ride that trail again? IS the diversion longer/massively shorter than the original route? Don't treat me like an idiot by just saying "diverted" - give me some info and get me on side.

Fair point well made, for the future expect the highest quality diversionary details at Drumlanrig. That's the whole point of this thread..... not ranting (much), just looking for feedback so we can get it right next time. Cheers!

I don't supposed there's any recently cut hawthorn branches or wild rose lying around that could be placed across the trail?

That would put off all but the most determined I would imagine.

A quick sweep on completion and sorted.

Are trail diversions posted on the Drumlanrig web site? The 7Stanes do this, IIRC and at least gives people travelling a long distance for a ride some warning if trails are going to be closed.

How many of us check such things before heading off to a trail centre is another matter. 🙂 But it's probably the best the trail centres can do.

forestry round our way have put diversion signs in place after trees have come down on a trail, and those diversions, or rather section closures, have stayed in place for months, as have the obstructions. now i know there maybe more to it than just clearing one or two trees, with other around perhaps being unstable, but if only they knew someone with a chainsaw.... 🙄

putting dates on closures and reasons for it would help a lot i think. if you can say 'allowing to settle for 2 weeks/4 weeks/6 weeks and open on the xth' it would make a difference i reckon. just out of interest, how long does the base layer need to settle before the top goes on, and how long does that layer need, roughly?

at Drumlanrig we don't put a top layer on, it's pretty much all built with what comes out of the ground, hence the ridden in feel. But to answer your how long question.........it depends.....on how wet, what the weather's doing, what kind of material etc. Most of the work I've done here is instantly rideable due to the material being just the dogs for trail building, stoney till.

The red route detour probably only needs a week to 'go off' hence my reluctance to spend ages pulling brash etc over the trail.

The black climb is clay and that will never 'go off' it's just nasty and willl need some imported stone from somewhere else on the estate. That hopefully will happen next tuesday as it's the club trail digging night (first tue every month). Bring a wheel barrow if you wan't to come and lend send muscle.

a sign saying what you have just said, plus a load of hawthorn cuttings for 1st 30m or so should do it.

+1 for a plausible explanation.

I once ignored a health 'n safety closure on the North Face trail at Grizedale. All they'd done was fell a few nearby trees, no workmen about and no machinery, just a few twigs across the trail.

OT perhaps but down here in Dorset, a local BW was closed for 18 months because the village was being connected to the mains sewer. Total length of time the BW was dug up for pipe-laying - 2 days.

Could you not lay down a load of barbed wired fencing flat on the trail at regular intervals plus give a warning that it is there. If there were sections of say 10m, every hundred metres or so, it would be the MTB equivalent of speed bumps?

thougt of using the threat of landmines, would deter them i'm sure and if not, you'd definately find your culprits and have somewhere for the water to drain to 😛

i do like the slightly less extreme idea of neck high fishing wire.

these ways they'll only do it the once 😈

All points well made, cheers for the input. I'll go speak to the guys in the ranger service about how we detour trail. They'll be reading this anyway ......hi rich

Points to include;
date the detour signs;
give the length of detour ie. it's only the next 1/2km you'll miss,
how long it'll be active;
provide reason for the detour - ride the trail too soon and you'll trash it and make work for the trail
crew;
brash over the first bits of trail;

We've also got a spare motion activated wildlife camera kicking about the rangers office so that could be set up to catch offenders. All videos could be displayed on s/t world for naming and shaming 😈

Unfortunately, sending info to the website lady would be as effective as asking the rain not to fall, the notice would go up as the detour came down......

I think piano wire at neck height and a single warning sign.

Seriously we've been repairing the Gully ar Gisburn, there were explanation notices, 6ft posts with tape right across the entrance, 2 seperate barriers blocking the trail 15m and 30m in. None of it made any difference, we even had one cock ride down on us while we were repairing the trail. He actually rode past one group of us, over a blind crest and nearly landed on someone else. When told to turn around and walk back up he got very grumpy, not as grumpy as when he was the told in no uncertain terms to **** off.

Even the new section we're working on which isn't connected to existing trail at either end is being ridden! I've come to the conclusion that there are a lot of users that really appreciate and respect what the trail builders do and a small minority of complete ****s who actively seek to wind us up (like the c**ck on our facebook page who had a go at me when I pointed out the unfinished section wasn't yet open and was potentially dangerous).

We've tried felling trees, digging out but not surfacing as well as barriers, none of it works. People riding the dug out sections prior to us surfacing them really cause problems, we end up having to dig out the slop they've created making the trail even deeper.

Explaining the reason would be a big help I'm sure... It's like people skidding at trail centres, I had a go at someone for this and he genuinely had no idea there was anything wrong with it, he said "But it's just a dirt trail". I felt a bit bad, he really meant no harm, he just had no idea how much work goes into a trail and how much time we waste fixing it when we could be making something new.

now there's a rant I could get my teeth into 😡 ! If any of the sproggs in my Thu night coaching class skid more than three time they have to sit out for a minute and the rest hurl abuse..... Nah, not really but it is frowned on and they know not to.... I think a basic skills class for all riders would be a great idea.

"Free money this way" and a arrow that has to work

"New Trail Section This Way" and repeat it a few times up the trail so they go that far they wont turn back and ride the stuff they are not supposed to.
Tuesday night!! Might get me wheelbarrow out!

I like the barbed wire on the ground idea.

Lay it thick and have a sign "Puncture experiment track. Test your tyre's puncture resistance"

That won't stop the dickheads riding it, but with the extra money made from selling new tubes and tyres, you'll feel a lot better about it.

LOL at Jordie's idea. 5:30 at the shop for wheelbarrow action or I'll leave a map on the club notice board to location of works party for latecomers.

[i]Hey Hobo, all this trail work is just for you my friend; so that you can come here and ride without complaining quite so much about the roots and muddy bits .[/i]

You will note that I havent said that for a while. The reason is that i managed to get a mate to take me around on a few night rides. I ate my hat tbh. One of the best night ride (Man made of course) trails i had ridden. Great fun riding such an unpredictable trail in the dark.

Credit where its due.

Still think the waymarking could do with improving, but the riding was great

The original post was in jest btw. Bikers are very selfish (Inc me), i agree with your rant

NLP

"99.9 % of riders are following the closed trail restrictions, are you?"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/1846680166/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page

New waymarking will be happening this year!!!! Don't expect gert great dayglo posts but definetely a bit more visible. Again all funded by the £5 facilty charge at the gate... New maps too and hopefully an info board at the trail head WOW !!!! Not holding my breath, I've been waiting 4 years for the maps but it's all gonna happen this year...

All you need is a picture of a red traffic light at the start.

Cyclists don't ever ignore red traffic lights.

Are there signs before entry to the car park indicating these closures and diversions? I wonder if some folk are just thinking "Sod it. I've paid £5 to ride here and I bluddy will".

Banging On

I,ve stuck this on our The Trailbuilders Arms group on Facebook.

Feel free to post your dig days and other stuff on there

Jason
SingletrAction

http://www.singletraction.co.uk/

Putting a duration on a diversion is a nice idea but it seems awfully hard to estimate durations effectively. At least the ones at Glentress tend to underestimate how long they'll be around for - the unpredictability of the weather makes it pretty hard. Keeping a diversion up once the date on the diversion's sign has passed would probably outweigh the benefit of putting an end date up in the first place.

A few rows of bramble bushes strewn across the trail head should do the trick, with a warning of punctures and damaged clothing. Sign saying please follow diversions due to excessive bramble overgrowth and trail repair.

Druidh - the trail closures only make up a very small proportion or the trail network so it shouldn't put folk off coming and paying their fivers.

I usually recomend a lap and a half any way if you found the trail shortish and have energy left. Theres a bail out after about 8miles of red/black which give a sweet techy second lap as used for the SSUK08. Most folks find that they enjoy the trail better the second time round as they get more into the flow of the place.

The red diversion takes out less than .5k singletrack and the black climb to cutfinish misses a gert big climb but the short lap catches most of missed trail but from a different direction :|.

I suppose we could estimate long and then please people by bringing it back into play early 🙂

[b]Due to a selfish minority continuing to use the trails when closed.

Punture deterents are present on this trail until it re-opens.[/b]

The just place some well hidden carpet gripper rod at 5m intervals.