Riding further for longer

Yep, your plan is sound, though I would suggest you either clover leaf it or circle your home rather than heading off at a tangent until you bonk

Your muscles convert energy to motion in three ways.

1. Fat at low intensity, which can continue for ages
2. Carbohydrate (stored as glycogen) which will work in practice for a couple of hours - stores are limited and this process fatigues muscles more
3. ATP, which is instant power and only works for about 20-30s. It fatigues muscles rapidly.

So to ride all day stay in the fat burning zone, commonly known as zone 2. In practice without a power meter and a blood lactate this is hard to maintain, but I would say that it roughly corresponds with the level at which breathing just starts to interrupt a normal conversation. Of course, this is quite hard to establish on your own 🙂 Once you have a HRM you can start to learn what sort of HR this corresponds to. If you're not used to finding this zone it will feel very very slow at first.

I like the idea of that, but I'd struggle unless there was a goal distance I was aiming for.
I had a great day when I rode to Lincoln. The destination was picked as it was just the right distance (120 miles) and also had a good train back.

You're not overthinking it, but molgrips certainly is !

I like the train in the morning to somewhere then ride back... the fact you're coming home kinda works and even if tired you just keep going as you know every pedalstroke you're heading closer to home.

That's a good idea lunge - follow a train line, then you should never be more than 10(?) miles from an escape route.

I would imagine if you ride slowly enough and eat properly you'll be able to go quite some distance. Possible that discomfort on the bike will become the limiting factor, something that can only be overcome with time in the saddle.

I’d struggle unless there was a goal distance I was aiming for

OK so think of a distance, and do it. Not sure what the issue is here...

When I did my first ton I just did the club ride and then bimbled around the local area for another 40 odd miles.

When I did my first ( and only) triple century I just did the club ride and then bimbled around the local area for another 260 odd miles.

< edited to acknowledge my OP <>Lunge error >
🙄

I have a figure of at least 100+ miles in my head.

A very safe way of testing your endurance is simply set up your turbo, focus on saddle time as your metric of interest while taking as easy as you fancy. For me, saddle pain kicks in before absolute death of legs.

With no training specific prep, having focussed on sub 25min Zwift races since Jan, in May I pootled between Warminster train station and King Alfred's Tower for ~5.5 hours before getting the train home. Longest day in the saddle (along with distance and elevation) for at least a few years.

One day in May '18, having cycled for fitness for ~15 months, I woke up one morning and decided I try my first century and stupidly set off with the kitchen sink in a rucksack. It made me take the many hills very easy due to lack of heat escape from my back, stopped for way too long on my breaks, the last ~2 hours home were agony for my backside while out for ~9.25 hours.

Find a reasonably flat route (but not as flat as a canal) that has shops/cafes at reasonable intervals. Ride for 50 miles, then ride back.

As long as you pace yourself and eat/drink then you'll manage. As you tire, it's hills that get harder whereas flatter bits allow you to just spin easily. Canals are a special case as the complete lack of hills gives you no freewheeling time.

Make sure you have enough stored fat on your body. I have spent many years honing my fat levels.

Then pick a destination with a cafe and go and ride.

Humans are amazing you will be fine. Biggest problem for me is getting out of the front door.

Bring bananas.

Anyone of moderate fitness can do 100 miles. It's whether you can get back on the bike and do it again the next day that's the measure of bike fitness. I'd echo suggestions about factoring train stations into the route planning for return from a variety of bail out distances (and check you can take the bike on without booking it).

I did a similar thing when I was about 22, at the time the only sports I did were drinking and staggering home but decided that if I went slowly I could do anything

So I bought a Spesh Rockhopper (only bike I owned was a 600cc Ninja), put slicks on it and rode from my house in Italy to Austria and back. Took me just short of a week knocking off 60 flat miles a day, which now seems laughable to me but at the time was a huge acheivement. Helped that I had to get to the next hostel to sleep every day so had some kind of target

I wonder now how I did that without Spotify 🙂

So yes you can do pretty much anything if you want to, but setting goals helps!

That’s a good idea lunge – follow a train line, then you should never be more than 10(?) miles from an escape route.

It is good but also, you're never more than 10 miles from an escape route. When there are no options you find solutions and motivation!

I don’t want to overthink it, but I am thinking of just riding steadily and eating as much as I can stomach and just keep going…

You'll be fine. Eat a mix of things and avoid the energy snacks mostly, less chance of a bad stomach limiting your ride.
From the time and distance you do, you may find you're not well adapted to long steady distance pace and efficient energy use. But if you keep your pace noticeably lower than feels normal/right for the first hour or 2 and settle into the pace (it'll prob feel about right after 5-6 hours), think of it as a day tour and you should find all day riding easy enough.

A very safe way of testing your endurance is simply set up your turbo, focus on saddle time as your metric of interest while taking as easy as you fancy. For me, saddle pain kicks in before absolute death of legs.

Maybe a test for high boredom threshold more than fitness threshold : )

So to ride all day stay in the fat burning zone, commonly known as zone 2. In practice without a power meter and a blood lactate this is hard to maintain,

Heart rate Z2 is good for long distance and I'd say easy to maintain as close as you'd need to w/o power meters and all that. When breathing through your nose is strained or feels unnatural you've gone (approx) from Z2 into Z3, aerobic into low anaerobic level. If you stay at or below that nose-breathing limit you're at a good all-day pace but it's fine to go past that on hills, just use easy gears and save your legs.

Make sure you have enough stored fat on your body. I have spent many years honing my fat levels.

I have elite level fat storage. It's an under-recognised skill.

A very safe way of testing your endurance is simply set up your turbo, focus on saddle time as your metric of interest while taking as easy as you fancy.

Wow, couldn't agree less. Apart from DrP's eE, I cant think of anyone who has managed to sit on a turbo fir a long period of time.
Complete nonsense to suggest that people can turbo for a similar time they could ride. As the poster above says, it's a measure of your boredom threshold, nothing else.

I could easily ride a bike for 12 hours, or even 21 hours in a day. Thers no way I could turbo for anything like that.

For me, riding long distance requires a different riding strategy to riding for an hour or two.

Some simple things to try:
- Free wheel every descent
- Try to ride as smooth as possible, saves energy IMO
- Spin away as much as possible, 90 RPM and above
- Change gears a lot to match the terrain (sounds obvious but I have a habit of muscling the bike over short steep climbs when out on shorter rides, this seriously saps your strength which will be felt on longer rides)
- Ride in zone 2 (fat burning zone) as much as you can
- Try to train in zone 2 at least once a week for 3+ hour rides. Could even try this fasted.
- Eat plenty of carbs the day before your planned big ride, as well just before your ride. Porridge is good. Try to eat every hour once your ride begins. I prefer normal food like cereal bars and trail mix
- Drink regularly, little and often works for me
- Try using a sports drink powder to get your carbs in, this can be pricey but I do feel better when alternating between a plain water bottle and a sports drink bottle.

You can also get other gains:
- Try running faster tyres pumped up harder than what you'd normally run. Maybe even tubeless.
- Setting up suspension a little firmer.
- Try riding in a more aero position, more difficult on a mountain bike but not impossible
- Wear lycra or more fitted clothing
- Wear SPD type shoes (and pedals), light weight XC shoes are more preferably to heavy downhill/enduro types
- Lighten up your bike, this could be a simple one where you remove things like lights or mudguards or reduce your tools and spares to a bare minimum

Also check your saddle height/position. This can have a big impact on power and efficiency, which all adds up over a long ride.

This is a good basic setup guide

https://sportcoaching.co.nz/lemond-method-saddle-height-formula/

Wow, couldn’t agree less. Apart from DrP’s eE, I cant think of anyone who has managed to sit on a turbo fir a long period of time.

I’ve done 6hrs on a turbo, it was hell.

Complete nonsense to suggest that people can turbo for a similar time they could ride. As the poster above says, it’s a measure of your boredom threshold, nothing else.

This. Mental stimulation, lack of core movement, heat and saddle issues. You’d have to be pretty fit and committed to achieve that. .

You’re not overthinking it, but molgrips certainly is !

Sorry, that's just stuff I know. Would you like me to un-know it?

Point is that the relationship between fatigue and effort is not linear. In other words, going even a bit too fast early on makes life much harder later. So learn that all-day pace.

One little rule that’s always stuck in my head (and worked for me) from some ultra-running maddie, was simply that if you can’t hold a normal conversation you’re going too hard

I am thinking of doing the Lon Cambria trail, from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and about 110 miles.

Plenty of shops and supplies etc.

You will have a good idea of what is possible given your fitness and stamina. Choose a challenging distance and commit yourself to it. Train out ride back is good for this. Then just have a think about where you spend your energy. Stressing about things uses lot of energy. Thrashing yourself up big hills uses lots of energy. So, relax and just tap out the miles, go gently on the hills and just enjoy where you are without thinking too much about how far to the end.

Sounds like a lovely day out on the bike.

A cafe stop or two will be the reward that will help motivate you along the way as well as give you chance to have a small rest and take on some food. 👌

On a recent long ride I did, I even managed a shandy at a pub and a nap in the sun. It's the little things like this that make riding long distances all the more special IMHO.

Have fun.

I’m interested in peoples thoughts and experiences….

Try bikepacking.

On Saturday I left home and rode. Pub stop for tea/dinner in and camped after +60 miles and nearly 8000ft. Sunday I rode home, shorter and due to the sun rising before 5am and an inability to sleep in I was home just after 11am.

90% off-road and majority very remote - barely met a soul, except at the pub.

Sorry, that’s just stuff I know. Would you like me to un-know it?

No, but I still think it's overthinking it for the OP's situation.

Hell, he's posted saying that his constraint to longer rides is time. He clearly does a fair bit of riding currently and has asked if the best approach is taking it steady, allocating more time and eating loads.

The answer is "yes". All this other crap about power meters, anaerobic threshold, zones etc is completely overcomplicating it at his level.

Fair enough, if he wanted to break the 600km or 400 miles IAD barrier then crack on, but he's not. He just wants to ride a bit further and has already identified the key problems and solutions.

PS, in your 1,2,3 styles of ride you seem to be implying that there's nothing between the 2 hour glycogen option and the all day fat option. Isn't there an option in between that uses constantly topped up carbs?

If you find yourself running out of gas, go to a shop.

If you walk in and buy the very first thing you see that has sugar in it you have probably bonked. Badly. But buy it anyway.

I find in practice that milk is amazing at fixing me when this happens but sometimes it is a challenge to get to the back of the shop past all the shelves groaning under the weight of jelly beans.

Chocolate milk...

All this other crap about power meters, anaerobic threshold, zones etc is completely overcomplicating it at his level.

I posted that as background for the tip I gave which is riding at the conversation level will allow you to.keep.gojng much further than if you ride any faster than that. I dunno about you but I always like to have a small bit of background for every piece of advice I'm given. They're free to take or leave it, as are you 🙂

It doesn't matter how fit you are, it still holds true. Our instinct is to pedal hard up hills, but this will make you far more tired far more quickly.

Well said.
Sorry I'm a grumpy shite as I've just discovered my returned wheel has nö rim tape in it so the chances of *me* getting out for a big fat ride in the lovely weather are fast receding.

Rapha do a book by Jo Burt of this parish called "Longer Rides" which is a nice read.

Basically, ride your bike. Then ride it a little more.

Mounty_73

Free Member

I am thinking of doing the Lon Cambria trail, from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and about 110 miles

Sounds hilly!

intheborders

Free Member

Yeah but where do you live?

Yeah but where do you live?

I live in Shrewsbury.

I have also found some audax routes on the web.

Yeah but where do you live?

Scottish Borders, and that 'loop' was from home over the Cheviots into England and back.

Watch this guy. He lives in busy England and pretty much does the same thing, just I carry a bit more 'luxury' than he does, and don't just eat Ginsters...

https://www.youtube.com/c/KeepSmilingAdventures

Not much more to add, but - having gone from "full potato" to "riding a decent distance" in recent years, things I discovered:

- one way + a destination helps. I take the point about train-out but riding-home... but I found the other worked well for me: destination in mind, keep going til you get there. As it comes into view - even on roadsigns or over hills - you get a big boost. You can flop on the train later. The thing with loops is that the back half always feels a bit like a necessary evil, or worst, repetitive - the same distance in a straight line still feels like something new is happening, or an adventure.
- a route that's interesting will always beat something boring. (eg: things to see, or unusual terrain, or anything that isn't an NCN by the side of a dual carriageway, or your trainer).
- if on the day you're doing it you're not feeling it, don't worry. there will be another day. I ground into a horrific headwind for hours on my first metric century and with hindsight, should perhaps just have saved it for another day. but it was character building!
- if anywhere looks like it has good cake, have the cake.

I've been trying to get myself in shape for a go at the SDW in a day. I started in April with around 20 miles, I'd barely ridden since the first lock down but I've done plenty of running and 15 months working on the bins when we had very little work kept me fit. I've got no quicker but I'm at 70+ miles now with over 8000ft of climbing. I set an alarm on my heart rate monitor at 150 and aim for an average of mid 120's. The main thing I've actually been practising is eating enough. I've settled on as much as I think I could possible eat then doubled it and then taken carb powder for the drinks bottles and some caffeine gels for when I start to feel it towards the end! I'm only really using them as I got a huge box of demo ones that were being thrown out. That seems to be about right for me, I don't have much in the way of fat stores to use up 🙂

If I go on long rides on the road then I'll only take a bit with me and just pick up food as I go along. All of the above is just about trying to keep my  average speed as high as possible by being as efficient as possible, and spending as much time moving as possible. Much better to be slower while moving than stopping and having to work harder when moving again to catch up lost time. A bit hare and a tortoise, but this is all about one particular goal. One thing I've decided to change on rides when I go away is rather than set a 100 mile course each day set one for 50-75 miles to allow for that detour that looks interesting.

I think that I dont eat enough on some of the longer rides. I keep seeing carb powder, I have never used any gels, powder etc.

I understand there are so many different ones and its a taste thing, but what are the best go to carb powders then please?

I just buy a big tub of wiggle's high five (tropical flavour for me) when it's on offer. I try not to use it other than for harder/longer rides and usually at a weaker strength than recommended.

but what are the best go to carb powders then please?

Carbs drinks etc are fine if you're working at a high intensity and need to refuel. For long, steady rides they're really not needed. Most of those products either make me more likely to have a bad stomach or I get sick of the taste, but the odd powerbar or a few carbs sweets are ok.

I just buy a big tub of wiggle’s high five (tropical flavour for me) when it’s on offer. I try not to use it other than for harder/longer rides and usually at a weaker strength than recommended.

this for me although Citrus is what I'm using. The Berry is ok for a bottle or 2 but then becomes too much even though I'm using the recommended amount for a 500ml bottle in a 750ml one.

For long, steady rides they’re really not needed.

I'm not sure if  anyone can really tell you whether you need them or whether you'll do better without them. All they can really say is what is working for them and what might or might not work for you. I'm using a completely different approach to my usual currently as my aim at the moment is totally different to what I normally do.

And caffeine can be a very effective pick me up when you start to feel you are flagging.

Slight hijack but when people say ride in zone 2, does this mean heart rate or power? Or can it be either?

I’m a big fan of the train out and ride back. I live in Glasgow and like taking the train to Perth first thing and then figuring out a nice way back, varying the distance and elevation based on how I feel and what the weather is doing. Plenty of scope to add loops or take the longer route if all going well.

Molgrips - sorry to be a (boring) molecular biology pedant, your muscles really only use ATP to convert chemical energy to motion. ATP is the primary source of energy that cells use for almost everything. It’s what muscle fibres use to elongate and contract. Fat or carbs (or even protein if you’re starving) are converted to ATP to power your cells, and this is mainly the job of mitochondria (unless it’s anaerobic in which case glycolysis happens in the cytoplasm). So whatever fuel you’re burning, it all ends up as ATP. It’s far quicker and easier to turn glucose to ATP than fat, for example, as fat needs many chemical reactions to break it down to useful subunits before if can be used to efficiently make ATP by mitochondria. Hence you can only run on fat alone at low intensity. In a sprint effort you do use up a lot of ATP quickly (a matter of seconds) and the lactate pain comes from your cells desperately trying to make more (mainly by glycolysis).

When you are going for distance, there comes a point where you should be thinking more about eating than riding. And don't go too hard unless its a race. This from someone who enjoys racing 12hour TTs more than a 10 mile blast.

Your body has access to about 2500Kcal of glycogen storage. you'll burn 5-700/hour at a steady pace. It's not easy to eat 700 Kcal per hour on a bike, so you will be eating hard into those reserves.

Carb drinks are awful, take a gel and then drink some electrolyte of your favourite flavour - I like Nuun - to ease it down. That way you KNOW you are putting energy in the tank and it's much easier to digest and absorb. I eat some solid food on the hour and a gel on the half hour. Then bloks or jelly babies ad libitem. You won't get enough fuel from carb drinks.

Carb drinks are awful, take a gel and then drink some electrolyte of your favourite flavour – I like Nuun – to ease it down. That way you KNOW you are putting energy in the tank and it’s much easier to digest and absorb. I eat some solid food on the hour and a gel on the half hour. Then bloks or jelly babies ad libitem. You won’t get enough fuel from carb drinks.

I’m sorry Tired but this is terrible advice which may be personal to you. Carb drinks are not “awful” in a dietary sporting sense and you can easily get enough carbs from a drink especially at the effort level being prescribed for the op. Myself and many others are sucking in adequate carbs at 80g an hour for high intensity races just from drinks alone. He won’t need that much. It is not easier to break down and absorb a solid as it is gels or drinks.

There is nothing wrong with using carbs drinks for fuel but a good understanding of the balance of carbs, electrolytes and fluids that the op can be comfortably tolerate through practice - wherever they come from - should be the order of the day.

I always ride better after a big porridge breakfast 😋 if I forget and eat something else then I'm pretty much guaranteed a cramp at about 45-50 miles.
Weird, but that's what happens me 🤷‍♂️

During a ride I find fruit (bananas and apples) sit well in my stomach + flapjack.

And for a big/steep/hot one I'll take a bag of mixed salted peanuts and jelly babies to stave off The Bonk.

Carb drinks are awful, gels are awful electrolytes are a necessary evil

Grape juice with water, apple juice, proper food gnommm

Pop to greggs, you can keep going for a long way on a 4 pack of sausage rolls.

. Myself and many others are sucking in adequate carbs at 80g an hour for high intensity races just from drinks alone

My point is that a gel has about the same energy and you are more likely to finish it than a whole bottle per hour. Seen it a few times where racers have had to force themselves to drink carb drinks when they really just want a drink. A gel washed down by some fluids is easier.

And a big dose of porridge before leaving is a nice steady energy infusion.

I saw a study the other day that says that carb source doesn’t impact effectiveness. High GI food, gels or carb drinks all work the same.

Both Kryton and TiRed make good points though. In favour of drinks is tonicity. With the fluid ratio fixed- it’s perhaps easier to insure against gut distress (assuming you have trained with it).

But Darren also makes a great point- you can perhaps maintain greater control on your intake with gels/food in either of extreme hot or cold conditions and in events where you are relying on neutral water stops.

Case in point-
I upped my carbs in my drinks from 100g/750ml to 100g/500ml on a warm century ride the other day so I could take less bottles. And despite coping well with 100g/750 usually- the new ratio left me rushing for the loo on completion! Had I been using gels I could have eased off on the carbs and kept drinking.

I’m not sure if anyone can really tell you whether you need them or whether you’ll do better without them. All they can really say is what is working for them and what might or might not work for you.

True - carbs is carbs, as long as you take in enough energy it doesn't matter. Power bars and gels or soreen and egg butties.. people ride a long way on both.

Some interesting thoughts and advice...