I would choose not to ride in a group where some riders didn’t have helmets as in my opinion the chance of a head injury, were they to crash would be increased
Yeah. I got that much from the start. I really don't 'get' it though. As in. What do you feel you're achieving by taking yourself, a rider with First Aid and MBL experience away from that situation?
I can only see it as you not wanting to be there to help if any head injury does happen.
Hence my opinion of you being an incredibly selfish man.
@ianc see my reply to tj, the fit space is not important, it’s the fit of the cradle that initially holds the helmet in place.
They must sell them in singles, right?
Maybe you could find someone that wants and Enduro specific bar mounted basket for carrying their helmet on the climbs and do a trade with them for an old right elbow pad they have floating about somewhere?
Geex, you are correct, you really don’t get it.
i will help with any injury if I can. On my local trails, at Mugdock, with tight natural forest it is common for people to clatter small branches and twigs with their helmets. When that happens the ride continues in most situations with no effect on the rider or anyone else. Were that to happen to a rider without a helmet it is likely they would have a cut on their head which would benefit from First Aid, which I would of course help with. If they had a lid on in the first place there would likely be, in same situation, no need for the group to stop, or any First Aid to be required.
to form an opinion of me as an incredibly selfish man is, to use your terminology, mental 😀.
Anyway, it’s saturday night and I’m off for a a glass of wine, good evening and happy riding x
Thats not what TRL say bikepawl - the fit of the shell is essential. Otherwise the helmet is badly compromised.
the regs allow the helmet manufacturers to do this and its not picked up in standard testing however the TRL ( transport research Laboratory - the UKs government funded road safety body) found this to be a significant factor. Top of the range manufacturers use 5 shell sizes for adults.
If the EPS is snug to your head then you get a smooth deceleration over the 2.5 cm of the EPS. If its not you get an impact head to shell.
I can't get onto the trl site to get the report right now and anyway we are rehashing old ground
Can you point me to these manufacturers that do five sizes for adults?
Bell do 4 on the one helmet I checked
This is the critical sentence from the TRL report
Linear impact performance, head inertia and helmet fit were identified as important contributory factors to the level of induced rotational motion and injury potential. The design of helmets to include a broad range of sizes was also concluded to be detrimental to helmet safety, in terms of both reduced linear and rotational impact performance.
4 is the most I’ve seen, so can can you tell me which of the top of the range manufacturers do 5 sizes?
31 years mtb here, only worn one twice, fell off twice and hit my head...true. Met a guy at swinley last week from cali who trained mtb racers, who we rode with for a bit, smoked hit on the ht. He asked the question and said he had seen some horrible head injuries...guess my bare head keeps me alive.....i dont want to hit it..
.
edit, mis-post
I know Mugdock well and those small glances you get with twigs, ferns and leaves you're describing are actually far less likely to happen with no helmet being worn. Visual spacial skills being closer to the norm and no daft polystyrene pudding bowl to have adjust to for your natural insticts and reactions to work properly. The injury you are describing from your local flora is a scratch. not a cut and as such rarely worth stopping for at all nevermind using first aid on in the woods. A woooly hat would protect you just as well from this type of ... erm... can't really in all seriousness call this an injury... but ok. injury as a helmet will.
Your attitude and rule boundness? No. I don't get it. I never will.
Please do me a favour though and stop saying publicly you would refuse to go on a group ride if anyone in the group was not wearing a helmet. It makes me sad for the future of humanity.
I wear one when I think it makes sense and based on where I'm going and what I plan to do. Probably 70% of rides without, doing CX style loops.
If the EPS is snug to your head then you get a smooth deceleration over the 2.5 cm of the EPS. If its not you get an impact head to shell.
You still get the deceleration over the 2.5 cm whether you hit a rock whilst wearing the helmet or your bare head hits a rock attached to 2.5 cm of helmet polystyrene.
Geex, I am quite entitled to my own opinion, it is a forum after all.
i respect your opinion on many points, and have said so on other posts in the past. This one we won’t agree on, which is fine. See you on the trails, cheers.
Yeah, of course you are Iain. When we meet on the trails you do realise I'm going to follow you around without my helmet on in the hope of breaking your cherry so you'll shift your goalposts.
😉
😜. Geex, l look forward to it, a catch up on the trails would be great. I know we are all different in reality from the way we come across online.
I’m a head sweater and even in the dead of winter I find them intolerable.
With modern helmets I actually find they can be beneficial in channelling the air and being more cooling.
why do MTBers have peaks on their helmets?
Bit of sun blocking (doesnt work when on drops hence not good for road stuff) and also as a shield against the "bugger there is a bramble coming at my eye DUCK!!!!!".
Thinking through my approach to helmets a bit more. Think it comes down to whether the purpose of the ride is cycling or just a means of transport. If I am cycling, either mountain biking or road stuff then I will wear one, if its just a way of getting somewhere, eg shops/pub (actually in the latter case I would be more likely but thinking of the ride back) then I may or may not.
rydster - its about the rate of change of the acceleration. When the EPS is snug to your head the acceleration builds up over a longer time than if there is an air gap - think of a slack seatbelt compared to a snug one.
Awesome bit of comedy Tj posting again !
i never wear a helmet because I know best and on the odd occasion that I do I’m probably doing it better than anyone else because I know best
then I’ll back it up with some nonsense I’ve made up
amazing
Geex, GMBC ride tomorrow around Pitlochry if you fancy ? Riding from Escape Routes at 10, probs around 4 and a bit hours incl stops. You’d be very welcome.
rydster – its about the rate of change of the acceleration. When the EPS is snug to your head the acceleration builds up over a longer time than if there is an air gap – think of a slack seatbelt compared to a snug one.
With the seat belt the device is to protect your head and chest from hitting the dash/steering wheel. Given that this is just a few inches away (and the seat belt doesn't directly constrain the head) an inch or two of slackness would be important, as could the risk of slipping out of the seat belt.
Thought experiment:
You are thrown from the bike and hit a rock exactly 200 cm away from the front of your head.
In one case there is 2.5 cm of foam on the rock, in another 2.5 cm of foam on the front of your head. In both cases your head must travel 197.5 cm until the foam causes it to decelerate. Indeed your head will even have less momentum in the first scenario.
The only issue I see with the 'loose' helmet is that it might slip and not protect your properly.
With modern helmets I actually find they can be beneficial in channelling the air and being more cooling.
I actually find they're utterly useless at keeping my head cool and it regularly frustrates me (commuting 5 days a week and all), but I still wear them, just because that's what I do.
Think it stems from the the local MTB group not allowing people on the ride without a helmet, and that's how it is in the media. OH isn't happy if I don't wear a helmet (ie I forgot and can't be bothered to turn around and get it).
I currently have two helmets which I alternate between when the padding of one or the other is in the wash. Seems to be the padding that makes me sweat. It creates an air barrier over my forehead. The padding in my old Catlike Leaf helmet no longer stuck to the inside of the helmet so I just did without it, much better. Had enough of the insulated brow so trimmed the padding in one of my current helmets but not used it yet.
Funny thing I commute for a few miles home then spend 15 minutes practising trackstands and wotnot and without the airflow I get really hot (less so no weather cooler). Despite the lack of danger in trackstand practice away from traffic or sharp drops or anything, still keep the goddamn helmet on, along with backpack.
So ingrained innit.
I actually find they’re utterly useless at keeping my head cool and it regularly frustrates me
Hmm, I do disagree and I run hot (to the extent even when fairly nippy I find myself taking off beanies to cool down when walking) but that said I do wonder how ingrained in me it is to assume it is helping out. Despite a few years back have been riding for a decent number of years and I do remember one difference between the mountain bike mags and the road bike mags was that the mtb mags had everyone riding wearing helmets really early on (vaguely remember it apparently being a photo requirement for mbuk back in the late 90s) so since I started with mtb it was consider normal.
Might be that I will be damn hot regardless and at least with a well set up helmet the pads will absorb the sweat before it hits my eyes.
I'm off on a ride tomorrow in the ayem for breakfast. Won't be wearing a helmet.
Hope I make it back alive. 🙁
@tgagain so the TRL say that in an ideal world the eps should be a snug fit. However in the real world manufacturers have to make a range of sizes, this will always lead to cases where there is a gap between the shell and the head, this means that your advice is wrong.
NO its not Bikepawl - think about it. If there is a 4cm step in circumference of the helmet sizing then its only a 1.25 cm step in diameter which is approximately the width of a finger - so if you can get a finger in there you should go down one size in shell in helmets with multishell sizes as if you can get a finger in the gap then a smaller shell will go on your head and thus a smaller shell will be a better fit
Its mainly aimed at the one size fits all helmets yes but equally applies to helmets with multiple shell sizes
Its just a simple rule of thumb 😉 to allow you to assess if the shell is the right size on the head. thats all it is.
some discussion here about sizing and also explains the point I made about bigger shells being less effective
https://www.whycycle.co.uk/cycling-advice/safety-and-security/cycling-helmets/
Some helmets use a "sizing ring" which adjusts to fit your head. If this is the case, ensure that the helmet shell is fairly close fitting. Do not rely solely upon the snug fit created by the sizing ring. The sizing rings and soft foam pads offer absolutely NO protection. Only the polystyrene shell will absorb any energy and it is therefore very important that this shell be as close a fit to your skull as possible without it being uncomfortable.
I am not going to debate this any further but its obvious if you think about ti tat with 4 cm steps in sizing of circumference that 1.25 cm steps in diameter which is approximately a finger width. so if you can get a finger in the gap you could go down one size in shell size
Interesting that you are now saying a finger instead of a little finger. In my case if I went for a smaller shell size I would need a summer helmet and a winter helmet as I wouldn’t be able to wear a hat under the smaller size. Even if you are able to get a finger between the helmet and head that space will be at the back of the helmet, so less likely to be impacted.
Any luck finding any of those top of the range manufacturers that do 5 sizes?
The five shell sizes was quoting something I had read. If its wrong then I am happy to be corrected. I ain't spending time searching thru. My fault for relying on secondary not primary sources.
All this is rehashing old ground. I am sure you agree with me that many folk wear incorrectly sized helmets incortrectly fitted. the finger test is an easy way of seeing if the shell you have could be sized down.
Positivly my last comment.
The finger test is good at the point of purchase, but in Ianc’s case it is largely irrelevant as long as the cradle holds the helmet on the head, stopping excess movement. Which is why I think your advice is wrong.