[Closed] Retro bikes how did I ever

I do know what you mean, was thinking about this the day, when riding down the beast. Came to the conclusion that people must have just gone alot slower...

But you still get idiots recommending that beginners should start out with rigid bikes! Mental, isn't it!

Yeah, but ridged is so reeeal..... man, I mean you're so in touch with mother earth...

.... coat.

I agree totally with the original post. I recently bought a '92 Karakoram, cos i love the paintwork and been riding it to and from work and enjoying it. I took it for a whizz round Swinley on sunday and suffered! I did all the usual techy bits, only a bit slower cos of rigid fork and lack of good brakes. Bit it is still fun, you just get that fun on different sections of trail compared to a modern bike. Nice floaty tyres help on rigid bikes, i was using Hutchinson Pythons at low pressure.
I still think there's fun to be had on old bikes and your retro-iron deserves to see the trees once in a while.

[i]Flat bars = no control[/i] Make that narrow flat bars, risers are a fashion thing and that is a fact.

But hey what do I know, I ride off road on a skiiny tyred bike with drop bars.

I still take a rigid 94 Kona off road quite regularly when the weather is good. Still great fun to ride just as long as you don't go anywhere too rocky. It's got wide flat bars and XT V's. I wouldn't have it as my only bike mind 🙂

nothing wrong with flats in my opinion

Sorry flat narrow Pace r/c130 bars

It feels like my wrists are tied together 😕

risers are a fashion thing and that is a fact.

Is that why they've been selling consistently for 15+years?

I have a 1991 alu hardtail (head down arse up)that is only used for commuting.I do not know how I managed to ride it off road.

In 1990, I was runnign with my bars cut down to 470mm! I'm amazed I ever managed to stay on the bike!

Still, the bikes might have come on in leaps and bounds but has the amount of fun changed?

[i]Is that why they've been selling consistently for 15+years?[/i] Thats why they sell, yes. But they haven't been selling in big numbers for 15+ years, 10 years more likely.

Nostalgia is sometimes spoiled by reality.

But it can also be about what you're used to, "you don't miss what you've never had". I've never owned a bike with bouncy forks and discs so my '97 Hahanna is what I ride offroad. I'm sure I could go faster (downhill at least) and stop much more easily with a newer bike but I like my Kona, and anyway I don't have money spare for another bike. I can imagine that once I'd ridden a suitably equipped modern steed I'd also find my old nail somewhat primitive by comparison.

Did the same with my 92 steel Kona, rigids, cantis, 1.35 CX tyres, flat bars. That was arse high nose low. Like you say great on the fast stuff, bearable on 'old skool' xc stuff but otherwise horrendus.
Though when you look at those old frames they seem to be road frames in minature!

The alternative way of looking at it (and this ain't a better/worse thing particularly) is that you [i]can[/i] hop on a bike that you bought 10 years ago for not much money, play in the woods on it and have a really good day. Which, if you were really short of money for some reason, would make you wonder why you'd blown £000s on endlessly buying better bikes over the last 10 years.

I have a better bike than I did 10 years ago. But I've wasted a whole lot of money in that time.

🙂

The standard wisdom these days seems to be that riding with flat pedals sharpens up your riding skills - but I'd contend that riding in the 80s/90s flat back, flat bars position really puts a premium on riding well. You just have to get your weight of the bars and ride on your feet not your hands when it gets technical - which is exactly as it should be anyway, except modern equipment doesn't punish you for getting it wrong.

Got to say, I still love the aesthetic, but I don't ride the old Explosif much these days because it is so ridiculously stiff.

If you can't pitch yourself over the bars with your little finger on your cantilever brakes then you need a lesson in bike set up, not disc brakes.

I used to ride this very bike everywhere! 19-20lbs of climbing whippet.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Now just last week I showed someone a popular descent we used to do at full speed on these chunky tyred road-bikes - now I'm hoping that erosion has caused the descent to become way more gnarly than it was back in the 90s, cos I couldn't even get down it! On my Handjob with 130mm travel. I don't dare go back there on my Yeti, just in case...
Maybe I was just younger and more stupid.

Some of the "need" for bigger bikes is definitely a product of knowing they're available. Every time I refuse a section now I blame the bike and buy something. 10 years ago I would have bollocked myself for being a chicken.

😉

I have a 1992 Breeezer Storm, rigid & cantis. It's great fun playing in the local woods, but I would never use it for trail centres and the like. I'm not that good! And it's very noticeable how much more tired I am after a ride than on the full bouncer.

Pics here: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16009

I do know what you mean, was thinking about this the day, when riding down the beast. Came to the conclusion that people must have just gone alot slower...

I remember riding down the Gap on my 1994 Orange P7 complete with flat bars, rigid form and 130mm stem. It was a case of hanging on through the pounding, and taking the occasional crash. I remember one long drawn out crash where I got knocked off line, bounced across the trail a bit and ended up over the bars onto the grass. I was completely unharmed. However if I crashed on the Gap at the speeds I usually travel at now on my 5" travel bike, I'd probably need the air ambulance. Or the air hearse, if they have those.

Still, the bikes might have come on in leaps and bounds but has the amount of fun changed?

I have to say, I think it has. Cwmcarn last Saturday was almost a religious experience in places. Way way faster, with way way more control means that a section of slighly curving trail 10 years ago becomes a sweet sequence of corners...

Has the fun got more because it is easier to feel that you're a better rider?

No bad thing, but it's interesting psychologically.

The way a ride works has definitely changed for me. I struggle to think when I last went out with an OS map and played "touch each side", which used to be a fairly standard piece of ride planning in about 1999... A lot of miles, a lot of views, and the occasional frantic scrabble down something terrifyingly rocky folllowed by a period of massaging the wrists.

🙂

A year or so ago, I went riding with my brother for the first time in years. We rode up in Swaledale, where we rode with our dad as teenagers. I'd not really ridden up there for ages, so it was interesting to see how much faster I was.

Then: rigid Kona Hahanna, with narrow flat bars, cantis, clips and straps and 2.1" tyres typical mid-90s set-up. This bike, but with gears:

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Now: rigid On-One Inbred Hahanna, with wide riser bars, V brakes, flat pedals and 2.25" tyres. This bike, but without the chicken coop:

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I know that by the time I started riding in about '03 it was more about challenging terrain, cleaning a climb or a scary drop-off, than mashing out the miles. Although I'm aware that there were plenty of people doing stuff that scared them back then, too.

I ride my ti ibis that I bought in 94 more than anything else, maybe 2 oer 3 times a week. But it has a disk on the front, reluctanly it has pace sus forks which are mostly locked out and it has risers.. oh and one gear. I still love it and I dont usually get left too far behind in group rides.

how did we manage without wide bars, disc brakes and suspension?

we didn't need them
[img] [/img]

A typical xc race course circa 1996, the Towcester series if anyone remembers them?

The course was a field,a short section of smooth flowing singletrack through the woods and a few whoops up and down a section of the 4x4 course.

I find riding an old bike with rigid single speed makes you work hard and improves your handkling skills and rattles your teeth loose!

Then come back to suspension and lighter bikes and you fly like a rocket from the skills and fitness you've gained!

Plus fun factor.

One thing-I always use disc brakes to try to stop as I hate rim brakes for lack of power on retro.

Good thing they make rigid forks with disc mounts.

I ride my rigid SS round the peaks during the winter. The lack of modern trinketry does make it easier to maintain during the worst weather. However there's no denying the cost in terms of speed, comfort and control. Like has been very well said though, it's just as much fun. Is also part of the reason I refuse to go up to full sus. Like BD said, if I chicken out of something I'll berate myself rather than my bike. I've seen people go faster than I ever could on bikes more 'harsh' than mine. I know in many cases it's not the bike that's slowing me down.
I still use a disc brake on the front though. I have to admit, that's one bit of tech which I think has revolutionised mountain biking. They're fantastically effective.
I must admit though, I do often dream of riding just one bit of flowing, smooth, wooded singletrack. The rocks of the peak get a little wearing after a while.

how did we manage without wide bars, disc brakes and suspension?

we didn't need them

You don't [i]need[/i] them now.

sq225917 - Member
If you can't pitch yourself over the bars with your little finger on your cantilever brakes then you need a lesson in bike set up, not disc brakes.

As I said

as for brakes I am using the new Avid shorty4's and they are superb

Yes they lift the backend no problem on the road, but off road they do not work as well guess thats why they are called retro(grade)

As for lessons in bike set up yes please, I may have missed something in the last 25 years of not using a bike shop mechanic 🙄

I am off in a bit on my cotic I will leave the past behind me for off road use

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I recently rebuild my old '92 Eldridge Grade in as close to its original spec as I could manage. My only real concession was to fit SPDs - There's no way I'm going to go back to toe straps and I hate flats. (Yes, I know it's got flats in the picture). I still found it lots of fun to ride - Narrow bar felt a bit odd but wasn't a problem.

Flat bars = no control

No way - flat bars have nothing to do with control - only maybe the relative lack of width and height that you get compared to risers. FWIW, I don't find that I ride significantly better or differently with 23" or 26" wide bars...

rigid forks = mega discomfort and my lights were bouncing all over the place

Well they certainly force you to pick lines rather than just bashing through things but then if you really want to smooth everything out and make it easy, why not just ride on the road? With practice, you get better at spotting lines at speed and just as importantly, riding light over bumpier stuff.

Cantilevers = suicide they do not work unless you use 4 fingers

Bad setup I'm afraid. Properly set up cantis will pitch you over the bars no problem - except in horrible mud/wet maybe though having said that, original pads aren't always great so different pads (Aztec eagle claws,etc) may make a big difference. The real issue with cantis over discs is that they're much less good when it's really muddy.

FWIW, I've ridden my local trails for about 15 years in which time the bikes people ride has changed a lot (from mainly fully rigid to a lot of people on full sussers though plenty have rigid SSs to deal with the mud) and in that time, I reckon that the majority of people still ride similar trails at similar speeds. Perception is a powerful thing and I find it pretty amusing hearing people talking about what you 'need' to ride the trails here.

I think it was simply a case of we went slower and more carefully. to some extent we rode less difficult terrain as well - I am sure Glentress when I first went there years and years ago had smaller obstacles on it.

[i]then if you really want to smooth everything out and make it easy, why not just ride on the road?[/i]

That's pretty damn close to the silliest thing I've read on STW.

I've still got my Principia frame hanging in the garage. Maybe I should rebuild it.
Nah.

I am sure Glentress when I first went there years and years ago had smaller obstacles on it

Do we need to buy 'bigger bikes' because the obstacles have got bigger, or havbe the obstacles gotten bigger because people ride bigger bikes? Discuss.

Oh and, old and retro are not the same thing.

I don't recognise "need" as a valid argument for mountain bike equipment. I do this for fun, so if I want stuff, I'll get it. I also don't necessarily feel I need to justify what's on my bike now, or understand the scathing attitude of folk desperate to hang onto some bit of kit.

The thing I think made the biggest difference over the years that never gets mentioned in these discussions is chainring sizes. I could probably ride just as happily with a rigid bike with rubbish brakes, but please don't make me ride 48,38,28....

Nick, agreed that "need" is irrelevant if, as we have grown used to in the last few years, you can afford anything you want.

Where it comes in, surely, is when you've lost/broken your £3k full susser, it ain't insured and your budget for replacing it is £500.

At that point, presumably, most of us would spend the £500 on a rigid inbred rather than taking up another sport, and would carry on enjoying ourselves?

🙂

Agreed. (If I actually had the money for a 3K full-susser in the first place...) 🙂

I ride both a big modern full bounce disk brakes riser bar ‘all mountain’ monster – and a 97 vintage clockwork in pretty much original trim – flat & narrow bars V brakes - both give a great, but different ride the clockwork is not as quick and needs more care about line choice and is better on shorter (under 3 hours) rides – the yeti will take on anything, is faster downhill and much more forgiving - I ride both weekly – both make me smile a lot

Re: canti setup, you could set them up as well as you liked but after ten wet miles on the Quantocks the pads would have worn and the straddle wire angle would have changed meaning you either put up with crap braking or stopped and set your brakes up again.

You don't need them now.

You don't need a bike at all, just go for a nice walk instead.

Ta Dibbs

My 93 Sworks - in full commuter/child pulling mode.
[IMG] [/IMG]
I know the mudguards/lights/kiddie bracket/lock spoil things - but uglyness is a good thing when you lock it up, hence the rustproofing paint splodges.
Campag chainset is unusual.

I still regularly ride my lovely, lovely 95 Marin. Rigid, cantis, green Wildgripper XCs and ting. Lovely.

I still very much love my rigid '92 Kona, and for the stuff it gets used for (non-rocky) in its SS mode, it's ideal. I daresay, it would be fine if I rode it on rocky stuff. I know full well anything slowing me down is my technical skill well beyond that of the bike.

In fact, I love it more than my Soul - because it's rigid, it has a lower centre of gravity, and feels like it handles so much better (and yet, people rave abouit the handling of the Soul, which feels barge like in comparison).

The Kona will get turned into a utility bike some time, but that may not last forever - I think it's the one bike I have which will outlast me....

I have a 1992 Kona Lavadome in my garage, my first proper mountain bike.

Was considering in building it up, Cantis (or maybe V's), 21 speed. But then I realised it wouldn't get used.

It's not the lack of suspension it's the lack of decent brakes, V's are bad enough, Cantis = 😯

I raced the welsh points series in '95 or '96, and the terrain was pretty damn rough even then. You just had to choose your line more carefully and I'm pretty sure we went slower than you would these days. By then most people had early suspension forks though (I had Manitou 4s, they were ace!).

I still ride this with a big smile on my face 🙂

I find the Vs fine as I do the rigid fork and the flat bars!

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Dodger, I think you have just gone soft. There's nothing wrong with flat bars or rigid forks (though I am a massive convert to disc brakes, only one of my bikes has cantis) I am no luddite; I have a fully-sprung modern bike and love it, but get pleasure from other bikes that have varying degrees of springs, brakes, gears etc. Why shouldn't it be a bit difficult? Modern bikes allow you to have lots of fun on some quite challenging routes, but on less technical sections I find the new-fangled bikes a bit dull. A bit like crossing Surrey in a Lexus; comfortable but forgettable.

Still have my Pace RC200 purchased new in 97, always wanted one from when I started riding in the late 80's, hardly gets ridden these days but always makes me smile 8)[IMG] [/IMG]

I sometimes ride my 1990 Explosif to work and every time i get there and think alternately "damn that was fun" and "**** me i think i've jiggled something loose in my bowels" !!
Interesting being totally rigid, its got V's instead of cantis and is s/s now as the gears eventually gave up (but i have got all the original bits inc the bottle cage with the toolkit underneath it). Still love the geometry tho.

I got a mate who rides a massive raligh thing with cantis and 100gs gears. he's first to the top and pushes the full susslers on the way down.

I thin ka lot of it is talent! the bastard

In my current unfit status I find my rigid SS more fun than my full sus, the FS is heavier and needs pushing to far higher speeds to be fun, which is hard due to the lack of fitness. The rigid only really seems harder to ride on the rocky downs when the front skips sideways which is fairly hard to predict. It has flat, cut-down bars, a long stem but does have HS33s.

But you know, with these old bikes esp. if you have had them forever - its like a pair of very comfy but slightly broken shoes. You hop on and after 5mins you have to double check what bike you're on...well its like that with me.

@ Clunker.. That Pace is absolutely gorgeous! I've wanted one of those since about '93. Still haven't got one, mind. Still hoping.. 😯

Re: This 'rubbish' retro riding position / setup thing - I'm not entirely sure what's wrong with it really?

I ride with narrow bars, and an arse up, head down position, simply because I find it more comfortable - and it's the same setup I learnt to ride with off road 19 years ago, when XC was all the rage. If you look at all the World Champ XC riders, you'll see they have pretty much the same setup, and they don't appear to be going too slowly..

Reading some of the posts on here I just can't help feeling that some riders these days feel that to be better on a bike you need a load of front/rear travel. Fair enough if you want that, but learning to ride a 'retro' bike WILL make you faster in the long run. No argument that full sussers can make the unrideable, rideable.
I have a '08 RM Vertex but also ride a '96 Vertex and in the winter ride an old rigid rockhopper (now a singlepeed with drop bars).
Some great pics posted by the way.

Here's my Karakoram. Consessions to the modern are good tyres, riser bar and a pair of V8s. It's still fun offroad, if a bit bumpy. The toptube is too short and the stem too long, but you quickly adjust to these things. For me it's rigid forks and pathetic brakes that make the real difference. I come back more tired after riding this, but the pleasure is that it makes you ride it with more thought and imput.
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the FS is heavier and needs pushing to far higher speeds to be fun, which is hard due to the lack of fitness.

That's a good point. You have to have the engine for a 6" bike on the singletrack. Maybe that's why people are so anti-them - they are too fat and slow! I wonder if they are the same people that have a go at you when you talk about saving weight on your bike? Hmm.

In any case my 5" bike is lighter than my first fully rigid steel MTB...

As for cantis/Vs/discs... Sure, cantis feel ok when you are tooling about in the carpark or on a flat piece of road. When you are struggling for control on a 1:2 drop, then it's a different story. I used to ride cantis, and I knew full well how to set them up (spent half my life fiddling with the buggers) and there's absolutely no way I'd go back. Vs maybe, if I had to - but not cantis.

Sure you had to pick lines carefully in the old days - but if you don't have to pick lines now, you're not going fast enough 🙂

To be honest though I'd ride a fully rigid bike with Vs quite happily if I lived somewhere without rocks - but I'd have riser bars, a shorter stem, maybe slacker angles... I think the biggest advances have been with geometry.

Every now and then I take out my 91 Marin Team, but after an hour or so start to regret it. I guess I have got used to bouncy forks, brakes that work with out to much buggering around and the ability to go around corners fast

I'm whippet thin and have plenty in the legs and lungs, but I don't have a lot of shoulder and arm to shift a heavy bike around with.

I think brakes depends on rider weight to an extent too. At 65kgs, riding a rigid bike in a fairly middle aged way, well set-up cantis are fine. If you're going full out, are much heavier and/or have a decent suspension fork on the front I can absolutely see they are a liability. 🙂

Ah. Nostalgia.

I have loaned out my original bike 1992 Cannondale M500. Rigid. Purple - with a 1994 'retro' fit of XT thumbies for a touring project. The current user has a son who is just old enough to want to take it to the woods - and dad wants to keep up. Enter the Dale.

It's still the nicest bike I have ever had - mostly because it was the first bike I spent any serious cash on - and as I was at university I could ride the daily rides of someone with not a lot to do in their day if they had a bit of a rubbish degree to amble through. We bonded.

I cut the bars down and added as many light weight bolts as I could afford. Sweet. It did and does still make a slight ticking noise. Should bother to find out what that is some time.

I struggle to think when I last went out with an OS map and played "touch each side", which used to be a fairly standard piece of ride planning in about 1999... A lot of miles, a lot of views, and the occasional frantic scrabble down something terrifyingly rocky folllowed by a period of massaging the wrists.

Not thought of doing that before; nice idea. I think I had to carry four OS maps on my last big ride, which is just silly.