I never had reason [i]love[/i] Shimano - they're great at gears, brakes, shoes etc and for that I would always buy their stuff without hesitation.
Today, however, I had reason to love them.
For a while I've been meaning to take the gear indicator windows off my levers - I never use them so they just clutter my handlebar and make it look like a kids bike. It took so long because I didn't know how I'd cover up the mechanism to stop cack getting in. In hope of being able to gaffer tape it like I have in the past, I removed the windows. My heart sank a little bit as it exposed moving parts and possibly too much to cover with tape. So reluctantly I was about to screw the windows back on when, wait... whats that? A little disc clipped on the under side of the lever with SLX embossed on it. But why would that be there...?
Its the little things. Shimano, I love you.
thought we all knew about those.... shimano stuff works well, for long periods of time (with care) whereas i manage to smash sram stuff up quickly and the mechs that SRAM make are shonk.
Amen.
I like how they have quietly realised sram really were onto something, and also gone to a 1:1 cable pull ratio for their 10 speed stuff.
I like how the creative use of plastic on the middle slx chainring gets you alloy weight and steel durability.
I like how the saint BB cups have a few more mm's of thread on them for durability. Or for people who have scuzzed up their bb shells, i suppose 😆 .
I like how you can still get older-style xt 6 bolt hubs with the cup and cone bits that stay put. And that you can get them in silver as well as black.
I like how their qr's stay shut.
I love how easy it is to bleed their brakes, with mineral oil which means it doesn't degrade and you can use LHM for bulk/cheapness.
If ony they would do spares (by that I mean smaller than lever/hose/caliper) and rebuild kits for their brakes then there would be no reason to buy any others.
(I'll save the other 'wtf are you doing shimano?' grumbles for another thread 😀 )
Aw shite - I didn't check when I did mine and now my bars are despoiled by raggedy-arsed (but effective) gaffer tape.
Amen. Except for their BB cups/bearings.
Amen indeed.
I started off using shimano stuff, had a brief fling with Suntour, then have used Shimano ever since. It just works, on and off road.
Except for their BB cups/bearings.
Eh? There is no better wheel bearing system. The only reason 'boutique' hubs go with cartridge bearings is because they don't have the capability to produce cup and cone.
BB stands for Bottom Bracket, not "wheel bearing system".
I was disappointed to find my SRAM shifters did not require adapting after purchase
I chopped up the lid off a frijj bottle for my xt shifters!
[i]I was disappointed to find my SRAM shifters did not require adapting after purchase[/i]
But my shimano ones did, and they provided a solution. And they'll now adorn my handlebar for many years to come.
But this isn't about SRAM; just feel the love, brothers and sisters.
I hate shimano, apart from their fishing reels.
They produce Saint after all, holier than thou, no arguments... 😉
I too am loving shimano, my new saint brakes and super short rear mech are fantastic. The new mech also allowing me to go back to my XT shifter with removable window. Can't say I'm keen on cup and cone though, they weren't designed for ham fists like myself!
TuckerUK - MemberExcept for their BB cups/bearings.
Eh? There is no better wheel bearing system. The only reason 'boutique' hubs go with cartridge bearings is because they don't have the capability to produce cup and cone.
Bullshine - cup and cone is victorian engineering with no place on a modern machine. Once the bearing wears the hub is scrap - fantastic
SLX double and bash. As good as a crank ever needs to be.
i think they also need a bit of praise for the breadth of kit they make. Good working kit at the very lowest price point and all the way through to XTR. All competitive on performance and price.
Fantastic company. Consistant quality manufacturing, inovative products with only the occasional turkey.
They've done more to make the modern bicycle what it is today than any other company and deserve their market position IMO.
It's very, very hard to go wrong with Shimano.
Jimmy- as cool as your discovery is... why not cover the hole with carbon fibre for a bit of bling? 😀 It cost me less than £3 to do and looks great! I'll get some pics up of this tonight
DanW
I am surprised that so few manufacturers offer enclosed cam skewers. The ones that do, charge a premium.
The Shimano XTR/XT's on my bike have never loosened.
I don't trust anything else.
Bullshine - cup and cone is victorian engineering with no place on a modern machine. Once the bearing wears the hub is scrap - fantastic
Maybe you should learn to maintain your bike then. Cup and cone is a better more efficient solution, but tooling costs more hence only Campag and shimano still use it.
I was disappointed to find my SRAM shifters did not require adapting after purchase
😀
all bearings wear. When a cup and cone wears the hub is scrap as (mostly) you cannot replace the cup. The only reason its more efficient is because it has poorer seals
If cup and cone is so bloody good, why aren't the cups readily available?
Utter crap. Who wants to re do their wheel bearings every week?
Whoa, stw member in agreeing with TJ shocker! 🙂
TandemJeremy - Member
all bearings wear. When a cup and cone wears the hub is scrap as (mostly) you cannot replace the cup. The only reason its more efficient is because it has poorer seals
Except that with only a little ingenuity...YOU CAN! and it's barely trickier than replacing cartridge bearings.
That applies to the NDS cup only - ALL of the other bearing parts in a shimano hub are available, and easy to replace.
How are the seals worse then?
TJ where does your anti-shimano bias come from?
Lord knows why you have to nail your colours that this particular mask, but you repeatedly decry their parts, including hydraulic brakes and centre lock rotors...which you admit you've never used.
...while enjoying the benefits of shimano's parts and innovations notably spds, hyperglide, indexed shifting...you also use a Alfine hub?...and making no mention of this?...but all you can do is bitch about the stuff you don't like (while tens of thousands use it daily without issue).
Kind of undermines your position.
Things I love about Shimano:
SLX cranks
The lovely feel of my SLX shifters and XT mech
Their cranks are a doddle to install
The surprisingly good Deore brakes I tried out recently
Their kit seems well designed and just works
Things I hate about Shimano
Those SLX cranks were £89 rrp two and a half years ago
The cost of replacement chainrings
My SRAM shifters require less adjustment
Oh look, here comes another "standard"...
julianwilson - cable pull for Shimano 10 speed is 1.5:1
I'm about to switch back to Shimano for gears. SRAM jockey wheels last about 2 minutes before they jam up and make you drop chains everywhere. Always used Shimano for brakes though.
Shimano stuff just works.
misterP's new riding glasses $-$
Usual drivel from cynic al. I knew you would have a pop at me based on your own ignorance and desire to attack me on sight. Why you feel this need is beyond me.
so what I said was actually right then - some wearing parts are not replaceable meaning a worn hub is scrap 🙄That applies to the NDS cup only - ALL of the other bearing parts in a shimano hub are available, and easy to replace.
because they are - Have a look at the multipart seals in a quality cartridge bearing. Shimano roll better cos they have less drag cos the seals are less sophisticatedHow are the seals worse then?
More imagined drivel - I have owned and used both.including hydraulic brakes and centre lock rotors...which you admit you've never used.
My objection to shimano is the built in obsolescence and deliberate policy of making things unrepairable as well as a proliferation of standards. Yes much of what they do is very good - but much of what they do is also designed to have a short life and to be unrepairable - a manufacturing ethos I deplore.
*killfile back on*
+1 all of the above. 🙂
So while we're all having a shimano love in can someone please tell me they haven't cast rapid rise rear mechs into the annals of history again* Not seen any new stuff with RR
*apparently most gears were originally rapid rise till that campagnolo dude decided that with non RR mechs you could double shift easier - bloody campag!
all bearings wear. When a cup and cone wears the hub is scrap as (mostly) you cannot replace the cup. The only reason its more efficient is because it has poorer seals
Back in the real world, most people are hapy with shimano hubs because they last for donkey's years with minimal maintenance.
Stock up while you can DONK, rapid rise does not feature in any of the new groupsets.
Mister P - Member
Stock up while you can DONK, rapid rise does not feature in any of the new groupsets.
Which saddens me - I may have to retire the dual-controls at this rate....
🙁rapid rise does not feature in any of the new groupsets
TJ I am just querying your position. As I and many have said many times, if you are going to promulgate your opinions in such a profilc way you can't really whine when someone challenges them, can you? Oh and it would be nice if you didn't make it personal, but that's up to you. I will try to remain above that.
TandemJeremy - Member
Usual drivel from cynic al. I knew you would have a pop at me based on your own ignorance and desire to attack me on sight. Why you feel this need is beyond me.so what I said was actually right then - some wearing parts are not replaceable meaning a worn hub is scrap
Erm...no, you said
Once the bearing wears the hub is scrap
which is quite different?
How are the seals worse then?
because they are - Have a look at the multipart seals in a quality cartridge bearing. Shimano roll better cos they have less drag cos the seals are less sophisticated
I've looked at plenty of seals in cartridge bearings, I'm not sure I've seen a "multipart" seal, but it's not been clear to me that the seals are superior to the lip-seals found in LX and above hubs that I've seen. I guess I'd ask again "why" but if your best response is "because they are" I guess that's not going anywhere.
including hydraulic brakes and centre lock rotors...which you admit you've never used.
More imagined drivel - I have owned and used both.
My apologies - however, on the thread about shimano hydraulic spares, you did say you'd sold those on Julie's bike without using them. When have you used centrelock rotors? From your clear dislike of them it would seem odd if you'd used them for any length of time - all the moreso if your complaints actually amounted to a deficiency in real-world use (which they don't, in my 8 years of using them). Never seen them on your bikes either.
My objection to shimano is the built in obsolescence and deliberate policy of making things unrepairable as well as a proliferation of standards. Yes much of what they do is very good - but much of what they do is also designed to have a short life and to be unrepairable - a manufacturing ethos I deplore.
Fair point.
Is there anything more rightfully ubiquitous than the Shimano XT rear mech?
Just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which just keeps on working and working and working until you eventually smash it on a big pointy rock. At which point you buy another which..... well, you get the picture 😀
I love the cranks and cassettes- strong, light, well priced and they work. Not a fan of the rear mechs or shifters.
cheez0 - MemberUtter crap. Who wants to re do their wheel bearings every week?
Heh. My oldest Shimano wheelset is now 19 years old, I think. 4 sets of bearings have gone through it, it used to get services once every never, now it gets ridden every day and serviced every 6 months or so. My Pro 2s need work more often than that.
The cones can actually be replaced, just that most people don't do it, because it's quite hard.
Things I don't like about Shimano:
Poor spares availability- no seals kit for brakes, that's very poor.
The XTR cable sets coming with randomly pre-cut outers for no reason at all
Torq chainring bolts
15mm QR
Retiring the AM40 shoe and replacing it with the foot-gimp-mask.
Er
That's it really.
My oldest Shimano wheelset is now 19 years old
Admittedly, the LX rear hub on my commuter (from 1993) did seize last year. So only 17 years from a hub that hadn't been touched in the last 5. Rubbish!
OMG I actually read all of Binners' post [img] 
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cynic-al - Member
OMG I actually read all of Binners' postPosted 5 minutes ago #
brilliant! I did too....but think binners has it spot on!
Reliability, reliability, reliability, never had anything fail (watch both bikes blow up this week now :-))
I'm a wee bit nervous of my Saint rear mech, it's obviously enormously stronger than any bike frame I've ever owned, or my house for that matter. If I catch it on a tree, it'll flatten the forest. Don't even want to think what'll happen if I inadvertantly bash it on Chuck Norris.
Always been a fan of Shimano - BUT - 3 succesful warranty returns in the last 12 months !!!??
1. Saint rear mech - all pivits went baggy in about 5 rides.
2. Pair of XT M775 brake levers - seals failed, 12 month old, moderate use.
3. XT rear calliper - seal failed after 14 months moderate use.
In response to the original post- this is how to cover the gap left by removing the gear indicators (started as XT, polished, added an alu clamp bolt, custom alu barrel adjuster, carbon fibre section to cover hole where gear indicators used to be) 😀
[img] 
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Also reminds me of another reason why Shimano is so great... super reliable, no nonsense components that are easy to tune and lose weight without losing any of the original durability. Great stuff!
A special mention to there spd range. I dont think in nearly 20 years of riding spd's i've ever had a set fail on me, cosmetically i've moved on but thats it.
Oh, and it would be great for them to bring out a bling bling carbon XTR seatpost, stem, bars and barends.
All hail shimano ( until di2 makes its way to mainstream mtb'ing and things go tits up in the scottish winter) 🙂
So, now i have found a hot-bed of Shimano wheel bearing loving people can someone please post a link or some info outlining where I can get a WHOLE COMPLETE set of cup and cone bearings* for a Deore M525 front hub and M475 rear hub.
Thank You.
* thats the pressed in cup that sits in the hub as well as the cone shaped thingy that goes on last and takes up the slack.
cheez0,
I am a shimano wheel loving person (except for their 20mm front hubs, they look nice but are rubbish).
If your 'cup' parts are knackered too then it's new entire hub time. 🙁 I have heard anecdotally on here of people pressing them out and replacing them but you caouldn't buy a new cup part anyway as its supposed to be non-user removable.
On the rear hub see if the left hand cup is knackered, if it isn't as ****ed as the rest of the hub and you want to keep the wheel built as it is, the cheapest way is just to buy a whole new hub and take everything off it (including freehub, which is a way to replace the drive side cup) and put it back onto the old hub. I did this to an lx hub a few years ago and it is still going strong 3 bikes later.
[b]"Maybe you should learn to maintain your bike then. Cup and cone is a better more efficient solution, but tooling costs more hence only Campag and shimano still use it. "[/b]
BS...all the cheapo "bicycle shaped object" bicycles come with loose ball bearing hubs
nothing expensive, above producing cup and cone bicycle wheel hubs....
nothing expensive, above producing cup and cone bicycle wheel hubs....
Not if you produce them in huge quantities - maybe you should read what it is you're replying to though...
The only reason its more efficient is because it has poorer seals
Rubbish - as has been pointed out, high end C&C hubs have better seals than typical cartridge bearings do (cartridge bearing seals are typically designed to keep out dust, not water). Meanwhile the larger balls in C&C hubs are the most significant factor in better efficiency - and also better resistance to contamination.
Wow some people need to chill a bit on here.
BTW Why would you se anything other than Shimano?
Apart from my brakes which are Hayes, oops 😀
aracer - and good cartridge bearings have better seals than any cup and cone bearing. Just by the very nature of the thing the cup and cone ones cannot be so close fitting and as soon as any play develops the seal will wear.
...yep, its all gone quiet.
Proves Shimano are not quite as good as all that.
Not very good practice to have to throw away an expensive machined hub just for the sake of a 30p piece of steel.
good cartridge bearings have better seals than any cup and cone bearing
Name me a "good" cartridge bearing, the seal on which is designed to do something other than keep out dust. Bonus points if you can name me a hub which fits such bearings.
The cartridge bearings i have seen in the hubs i have used, Hope and Campagnolo are no better sealed than the Shimano or Campagnolo Cup and Cone hubs i have used. The cup and cone could be tweaked, regreased and maintained. The cartridge bearing hubs, bearing wear you bin them, not vey environmentally friendly?
As for bicycle shaped objects, yes they use cup and cone, but because it is cheap to mass produce the hubs, QC is minimal so durability suffers.
cheez0 - Member
So, now i have found a hot-bed of Shimano wheel bearing loving people can someone please post a link or some info outlining where I can get a WHOLE COMPLETE set of cup and cone bearings* for a Deore M525 front hub and M475 rear hub.
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/shimano-m525-deore-item103844.html
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/HUSHDEM475/shimano-deore-m475-rear-disc-hub-36h-6-bolt-fitting--black
Like I say I've never done the cup swap thing- never had to- but if it works, then here is your complete bearing kit, conveniently packaged in a hub 😉
some stuff on seals in 2rs bearings - there is more to themthatn some of you realise - I took some apart that were 3 part
2RS seals marked LLU or LLB: 2RS literally means Two Rubber Seals and simply means that the bearing has these. There are many types of seals. On most other bearings 2RS means that the seal is made from rubber and has one sealing lip rubbing on any flat part of the inner race. Our seals are either LLU (usually the MAX type bearings) or[b] LLB (better for hubs).[/b]LLU seals have 2 sealing lips on each seal which also fit into a matching groove on the inner race to make a type labrynth seal. LLU is a medium/high contact type seal. [b]The outer sealing lip repels dirt and water while the inner sealing lip retains the grease.[/b] When the bearing is first turned, you will notice some grease will come out of the seals. More on that later about “grease” but what this does is fill the chamber between these 2 sealing lips forming a “hydromatic seal” of grease.
[b]LLB seals have 2 sealing lips on each seal which also fit into a matching groove on the inner race to make a type labrynth seal.[/b] LLB is a low contact type seal. The outer sealing lip repels dirt and water while the inner sealing lip retains the grease.When the bearing is first turned, you will notice some grease will come out of the seals. More on that later about “grease” but what this does is fill the chamber between these 2 sealing lips forming a “hydromatic seal” of grease.
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http://www.endurobearings.com/bicycle/tech/abec-3_tech.html
Hey northwind, I see what you did there,
Can you get the hubs conveniently packaged with a ready assembled set of spokes and rim for the same price?
To those folk questioning Shimano quality and durability, might I suggest that you work in a bike shop for a while and pay some attention to the relative numbers of repairs involving Shimano components to those of their competitors.
There is a very good reason that Hope make lots of spares.
Lots of BS written about bike stuff. Enduro appear not to even understand what a labrynth (sic) seal is (either that or they're trying to baffle with BS).
druidh - all the people on here reporting failed brake seals recently? Unrepairable callipers?
TJ - "all" was 2 folk if I recall.
As I said above, if you're not in a position to weigh up the evidence, don't speculate based on the utterances of a handful of unhappy users.
It was a lot more than two - and anyway I made no comment on the reliability of shimano. I made comment on the non repairablity - a different issue.
I had an XT caliper seize up, which should have meant a £2 seal but meant a whole new caliper. Buuuut the thing is, I went out and got a cheap caliper for £20 or so, and it came with a set of new pads as well. Took out a seal and fitted it to the XTs.
So that's not so terrible in the end, it's not how it should be but I could live with it. The inevitable comparison with Hope is interesting for 2 reasons. One is that the Hope parts don't work out all that much cheaper when you take into account the £15 worth of pads- we're talking a few extra pounds.
And the other is that for equivalent-performance brakes, the Hopes cost enormously more in the first place. That pays for an [i]awful[/i] lot of replacement calipers.
So I guess it's just as well Formula have high performance low price brakes with full spares availability, so that you don't have to make that awkward choice 😉
I'm with TJ!
There is a very good reason that Hope make lots of spares.
is it just that people with Hope stuff ride more or perhaps cant do maintenance to their bikes? Shimano folk are goos at maintenance as they have to adapt their stuff from new to suit 😉 The first point is serious BTW.
Mine have been faultless both sets.
Its about the philosphy. shimano are ( like most japanese manufcturing) fantastic engineers especially production engineers. the aim is to get a product that is reliable out into the market at minimal cost. In order to do this it means clever production engineering to reduce the amount of machining needed.
Very little effort is given to easing maintainence or repairability you are intended to throw it away and replace it once it wears or needs repair. thus spares are often not available and repair are difficult to do.
European manufacturing tends to focus more on repairability and maintainence and spares availability so using stock sized parts for example less of a throwaway philosophy.
Yes, well, there you go, eh?
What?
Whatever happened to the guy in here that wanted to make/source seals for shimano calipers? (not that I have had one ever fail on the three sets in mrs j and my brakes, or 4 sets on other mates' bikes) (if you [i]are[/i] counting, tj 😉 )
TandemJeremy - Member
...I made no comment on the reliability of shimano. I made comment on the non repairablity - a different issue.
But the 2 are inseparable: the importance of non-repairability decreases as reliability increases.
Why can't you admit this?
When you can buy a decent hub for £20 who cares about repaiability, the time effor and energy to make it repairable and to actually repair it is pointless.
I dont know what kind of mileages people do on hear but i have a set of campag chorus hubs which are 18 years old and have never been stripped down and have do i would think about 5000 miles between me and my dad (who now uses the bike)
I used to always strip my old hubs when i was 15 and clean and re grease, for fun not because they needed it, i had the time because i didnt have a wife, kids and a life outside bikes, now i have all i want to do is ride.
****in chill about the hubs please.
p.s. Shimano is the best 😀
...yep, its all gone quiet.Proves Shimano are not quite as good as all that.
Not very good practice to have to throw away an expensive machined hub just for the sake of a 30p piece of steel.
But is that common place? I seem to be getting 15 years+ out of my Shimano hubs. I've never had an axle seize on SPDs either.
Old school bearings rule!
There's cup and cone bearings and cup and cone bearings. You cannot seriously argue that the bearings in a £99 Halford's special are exactly that same as in your common or garden XT wheelset? The ball bearings and races will be made to much tighter tolerances for a start.
I run cartridge bearing hubs on my bikes, mainly out of vanity because I like the colour blue. I have no qualms with cup and cone hubs, indeed both the stepkids have them on their bikes and they're maintained on a shoestring but keep on going.
I've got some old Shimano 600 road hubs on my winter commuter, probably 20 years old. They were used for 'cross for years by a well known rider, I then acquired them, and have totally abused them (being as they're on a winter road bike). I've probably done 5000 miles or so at a guess over 2 winters, and they're absolutely perfect, they've been jetwashed a couple of times and not much else. The cartridge bearings in my PowerTap have been replaced 3 times over one winter.
Admittedly the bearings in my DT front hub on the summer bike (which was my 'cross bike for a while and got used all year), have never been replaced and must've done at least 20000 miles. So... very inconclusive, but Shimano components are awesome, wouldn't go back to SRAM lightly, particularly Avid brakes vs the new Shimanos.
As for transplanting the cup out of a Shimano hub it's very doable, and an excellent way to totally rejunvenate your wheels, stonking value really when you consider you get a new skewer in the deal. Just turn the hub shell into a pen pot or something!
And the other is that for equivalent-performance brakes, the Hopes cost enormously more in the first place. That pays for an awful lot of replacement calipers.
Yes I'm sure 11 quid is an enormous amount in Northwind land, doesn't buy you a whole lot of calipers though. 🙄
So I guess it's just as well Formula have high performance low price brakes with full spares availability, so that you don't have to make that awkward choice
Do you live in some bizarre alternate reality? Formula brakes are hardly low price! Not conviced by the claims of high performance either having experienced some K24's...
Do you live in some bizarre alternate reality? Formula brakes are hardly low price!
I think he forgot the smiley. The performance is actually very good though - I have R1s which work very well, and all reports I've seen suggest the reliability is better than the more common brands, but they were far from cheap, and I imagine I'll be getting any spares from ebay in the same way I got the brakes.
Bullshine - cup and cone is victorian engineering with no place on a modern machine. Once the bearing wears the hub is scrap - fantastic
100% agree, I mean the hubs on the tourer ar 30 years old, in another 30 years when the races are worn out they'll be obsolete and I'll have to buy new hubs, shocking!