Are they a bad idea overall? Or just the higher tooth counts?
I've been reading around and it seems that DT recommend no more than 24t for ebikes and other high torque applications.
I hate low engagement hubs.
I reckon I'd probably get used to a 36t if I had to but if I'm going to upgrade wheels, I'd want it to feel like an upgrade and not something that I can just about tolerate.
I've also never ridden a ratchet hub. Is the dead spot between the engagement points as noticeable as with a pawl hub? I guess it is.
Bike is an Orbea Rise with a restricted Shimano ep8 that maxes out at 62nM (and I rarely max it out in any power mode)
I'm a spinner not a masher and wonder whether a 54t is as bad an idea as it seems? I reckon it would probably be fine 99% but there's always that moment where you fluff it up and have to stamp on the pedals. Is the 54t going to handle that occasionally?
A lot of forum stuff that I've read, people tend to carry a spare ratchet with them just in case. That just makes me think it's a bad idea generally.
I’m not sure that you would notice what you call a “low engagement” hub on an electric bicycle? Surely a quick engagement only matters when you’re positioning the cranks in just the right position to get maximum leg power to get up a step?
With an electric bicycle can’t you just up the power and carry on pedalling regardless of the obstacle in front?
I'm a spinner not a masher and wonder whether a 54t is as bad an idea as it seems? I reckon it would probably be fine 99% but there's always that moment where you fluff it up and have to stamp on the pedals. Is the 54t going to handle that occasionally?
isn’t the point that it’s not just you and your flawless pedalling technique, there’s a chuffing great motor bolted to your drivetrain now, and it’s more than happy to throw extra torque at your rear hub without necessarily consulting you…
36t is low engagement?
that;s news to me
I doub't you'd even notice unless you were a trials rider expecting instant pickup
54t makes the hub yet another consumable.
18-24t should last the lifetime of the bike.
36 is a noisy compromise and can get a bit irritating when all you've been hearing for the last 6 hours is freewheel buzz rather than nature. There must be a reason why DT Swiss don't recommend it for ebikes. But it's what I will have on all my bikes.
I'm a spinner not a masher and wonder whether a 54t is as bad an idea as it seems? I reckon it would probably be fine 99% but there's always that moment where you fluff it up and have to stamp on the pedals. Is the 54t going to handle that occasionally?
isn’t the point that it’s not just you and your flawless pedalling technique, there’s a chuffing great motor bolted to your drivetrain now, and it’s more than happy to throw extra torque at your rear hub without necessarily consulting you…
Well no, not necessarily. Output power of the motor is proportional to input power from my flawless pedalling technique.
The more flawless and fabulous I am, the more brilliant the motor becomes.
I think it's a terrible idea given people already break 54t on normal bikes but you could always try it and carry a spare?
I don't really notice the engagement issue, and the standard ratchet ln hub on my full fat ebike has been fine for the last 2 years and 2000 miles. They are h1900 wheels, not sure on teeth count.
I run a 36T on my Levo Sl and it’s been fine so far. Just make sure you clean it every few months and use a small amount of the correct DT ratchet grease. With the lag in the motor clutch and power coming in, I doubt you’d notice a benefit from a 54 anyway.
The more flawless and fabulous I am, the more brilliant the motor becomes.
I say do it.
You're clearly an above average rider with superior knowledge, skill and reasoning. Normal guidance doesn't apply to people like you so crack on.
Make sure to let us know how you get on.
You do understand that on an eBike, you already have ANOTHER freewheel mechanism at the crank right…? One probably with more lag than the one in your freehub body…?
It’s an absolute non issue on eBikes. In fact, slow freehub engagement is an absolute non issue on just about any bike (I’d maybe agree it’s an issue if you’re a trials rider, but otherwise not) and actually in many cases, is more of a help than a hindrance… You certainly don’t need an O-Chain on your long travel full sus bike if you’ve got 18T DT Swiss ratchets in your hub!
Anyway… DT 350’s on my eBike with their 24T rings and they’re solid as a rock, and I certainly don’t notice that the 15deg engagement angle is “slow” compared to the delay in the motor pickup (Gen5 Bosch)… But I would notice the torque of the motor destroying 54T ratchet rings frequently I suspect!
Forgot about the hatred for ebikes on here.
You're clearly an above average rider with superior knowledge, skill and reasoning. Normal guidance doesn't apply to people like you so crack on.
Not sure if you missed the sarcasm in my post or perhaps you're just having a bad day?
I think it's a terrible idea given people already break 54t on normal bikes
This is kind of what I mean. I've read plenty of stuff that says people are stripping the 54s on normal bikes so it probably is a really bad idea on an ebike. However, to me there's a big difference between different types of rider and different types of bike. Assisted or otherwise. I'll bet there are plenty of people who can generate more power on a normal bike than I can on my Rise .
With an electric bicycle can’t you just up the power and carry on pedalling regardless of the obstacle in front?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Mostly though, it's not really too dissimilar to a normal bike, you've just got a bit more power behind you if you want it. You still need timing and body weight movements to get up and over stuff on a techy climb. That's where I notice the slower engagement. Just pedalling on singletrack or whatever it's not so noticable.
Mavic E-deemax here with ratchet hubs and a 9 degree pickup.
The FB Turbo Levo group are constantly breaking OEM pawl hubs so I would suggest a good DT ratchet is the way to go. Or at least a steel pawl freehub, not an alloy one.
Probably, if you got the 54t ratchet and it ate itself, the hub shell would take a 36t too? A quick and not too spendy swap.
It's outside of my limited scope of bike knowledge, but Hope do an ebike specific (boost) rear hub with 6 steel pawls & 54 points of engagement.
https://www.hopetech.com/products/hubs/e-bike/pro-5-148mm-boost-e-bike/
This is something I have never worried about in 40 years of riding bikes and had no issues
Is this something I need to be worrying about 😂
Well no, not necessarily. Output power of the motor is proportional to input power from my flawless pedalling technique.
The more flawless and fabulous I am, the more brilliant the motor becomes.
Yes, but that motor assists by adding more torque on top of your puny human efforts, however carefully you pedal it’s just there adding load to the drive, magnifying your input, that’s what knackers the FH ratchet.
Anyway it’s your choice, and it seems like you’re set on a course. Pickup is so important to you that you’re willing to mitigate an inevitable failure by carrying a spare ratchet and rebuilding your FH by the trail side. Sounds bonkers to me, but if you’re happy crack on.
This is something I have never worried about in 40 years of riding bikes and had no issues
Is this something I need to be worrying about 😂
seems to just be an e-bike thing, same as some seem to need special fork steerers and bigger rotors for all the additional gnarr they’re doing (mostly on the same trails they’ve been riding for 40 odd years)… probably not a real concern.
Anyway it’s your choice, and it seems like you’re set on a course. Pickup is so important to you that you’re willing to mitigate an inevitable failure by carrying a spare ratchet and rebuilding your FH by the trail side. Sounds bonkers to me
I'm not set on a course. I want some new wheels and trying to work out if ratchet hubs are going to be OK. I'd prefer pawls personally. Rebuilding the FH trailside sounds bonkers to me too and I'm definitely not happy having to carry a spare ratchet around! I think it's looking like ratchet hubs aren't what I want.
seems to just be an e-bike thing, same as some seem to need special fork steerers and bigger rotors for all the additional gnarr they’re doing (mostly on the same trails they’ve been riding for 40 odd years)… probably not a real concern.
Don't forget your ebike saddle
Can't be riding around on a non assisted saddle now can we.
I'm definitely not happy having to carry a spare ratchet around!
Two reasonable size metal discs compared to several tiny springs and pawls that would just disappear into grass or soil. If you needed to do it at all....
DT / Ratchet hubs are an enigma. On the one hand people will bang on about how superior they are, on the other ... well if it's such a better way of transmitting torque, why does it only work in tooth counts that even the cheapest pawled hubs don't struggle with?
On the high / low PoE thing, 18t feels awful, but 36t is unnoticeable IME.
If you're upgrading the wheels anyway, I'd just go with something other than DT that's marketed as being suitable for e-bikes.
Not sure if you missed the sarcasm in my post or perhaps you're just having a bad day?
I admit I 'dead panned' my response, but ditto.
TBH it seems like you've already made your mind up and want people to agree with you?
Don't forget your ebike saddle
Can't be riding around on a non assisted saddle now can we.
Remember when 29ers first came out and Fizik made 29er specific saddles to maximize the grip from those longer more stable chainstays?
https://bikerumor.com/review-fizik-thar-29er-mountain-bike-saddle/
Then a few years later they did the opposite because it wasn't compatible with FS bikes!
Fizik debuts 29er specific saddle | BikeRadar
Although the idea of a rear wheel and saddle getting that close ........... 😬🥜
Ha! I was actually thinking about those when I posted the ebike one. I was thinking surely I'd imagined that they existed but nope. There we go, they were real.
E-bike specific saddles do exist, as do shoes and I seem to recall, pedals!
Has there actually been a spate of failures or is it just dt being risk averse? They've got good reason to be if it's the latter, they have a very premium, superbly reliable product that's also got a reputation for superb reliability- not always the same thing- and that's a big thing to risk.
And they're a company that fundamentally made the same hub with tiny tweaks for decades, and the only reliability issues they've ever really had is when they've screwed up a ratchet tooth increase. And even then, it was always an execution problem rather than a fundamental problem.
And it's got to deal with not just day one use but also neglect, it's very easy to neglect a super reliable product for obvious reasons, we so often just fix things when they go wrong. But a gummed up 240 engages less strongly, dirt or whatever on the ratchet face the same, and while the ratchets last forever if they're working right if you get them to skip it can be fast wearing. The one big downside of the design imo.