[Closed] Race Phototraphers? Yeah. OK....

Havent read all of the thread so apologies if i repeat something already said.

My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?

The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?

Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?

There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay?

Another 'amateur' pic I like a lot:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Much better than the innumerable 'grumpy looking rider looking static in the trees' shots from mayhem that year ...

My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?

Yep

The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?

I don't think so, no. I think everyone likes a good pic of themselves.
"Action shot"? Well, they aren't. That's the point. There's little or no action in any of them. Flat ground. Boring background. No more than holiday snaps that their mates could take. People aren't mugs!

Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?

£1k - £4k+ for a bike? £5 for a good pic of you riding it? Again, I think everyone likes a good pic of themsevles.

There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay

Totally, utterly missed the mark entirely there chap. Sorry. The BBF course in particular was littered with superb photo opportunites, and after the first half of the first lap, the field spaced out and nearly everyone rode nearly everything every time. Mrs PP is not a technical rider at all, but even she only walked the bridge and rode all the rocky bits. 🙂

I love that one of the T-Mobile guy in the water! But I'm not convinced that if it was me in that picture I'd [i]necessarily[/i] have paid £5 for it. 😀

I jolly well would if I'd have got it that wrong and made a complete arse of myself 🙂

In fact, I very nearly did exactly that on the first lap, missed the faceplant/bellyflop more by luck than judgement ...

Did he fall, or was he pushed for wearing the T mobile kit?

As a professional photographer there are some givens, but one being that you need to be producing images that sell.
Or you have no business.

One way to have images that sell is to produce more interesting images than the competition.

A few images here are no more than snaps, that much is obvious & I'm sure the photograpgers who took would agree, it’s something we can pretty much all do, regardless of training and experience. That doesn’t de-value them in the eyes of the rider or for that matter the photographer. KingTut’s first picture was just one such example, it's his favourite picture but technically it's no more than a snap but as a professional, it's not an image I'd personally have been looking to take.

As riders, you will know from competing in these events that off-board flash units are pretty much a given now-a-days, you only need look at the magazines to better appreciate what I’m talking about, but if you are in any doubt, look at the bike and rider’s shadows and where they fall.

When you’re out on the trails and hill sides for hours at a time taking pictures, if your only master is selling images to the riders then you have a simplified brief; whereas if it’s the race organisers, magazine or the charity (?) or any other 3rd party, they you need a good spread if images from the event, not just a many images taken of a few corners / bomb holes / corners.

These were used in one of this month's magazines:
[img] ?rnd=1964[/img]

[img] ?rnd=8170[/img]

[img] ?rnd=8475[/img]

[img] ?rnd=8272[/img]

The best sellers are where there's a little "action".

[img] ?rnd=947[/img]

Apart from the night-time shot, all others were at Clic24 2010. I have many others from events, but I think it serves to illustrate what I'm talking about (I hope!). I had three masters at the event, you the riders, the magazine and the race organisers who want images they can use for PR & marketing. You try and satisfy all 3 over the course of 24hrs as best you can.

I've had 2261 visitors and 25 orders from the Clic event, ergo, you're never going to make enough to retire on, so never give up that day job!

The best sellers are where there's a little "action".

Thank you, kind sir. I was hoping as much. I really was. 😀

To be fair, mtb is not a sport where the 'action' is obvious when shot - pulling a funny face, looking a bit pooped and lolling out your tongue is about it really 😉
Add into the equation that most of the events in the UK are muddy field rides it doesn't give much scope for creativity...

One thing that's been mentioned here is that financially, the best events are those that attract a new crowd, it's rare to be selling images to the same racers weekend in, weekend out, all season long.

Personally, I try and sustain the professional photographers by buying their images, but that's my own personal take.

Tim, you take a mean photo 8)

Add into the equation that most of the events in the UK are muddy field rides it doesn't give much scope for creativity...

The start/finish and arena is a muddy field, certainly. Which is why you need to get off your ass and find a location you can do something with.

Oddly, all the pics I've seen from BBF are within a reasonably easy walk of the carpark...... 😕

If I've learned nothing from doing a few MBUK shoots it's that something that looks interesting to ride doesn't necessarily make a good photo, and vice versa.

Looking down your photos Tim, the only two that are actually of riders look very much like every other photographer's photos of people racing. There's just not much you can do to make it look interesting!

Oh funny OP 🙂

I've got a few race photos and I spent the day being a photo gimp for a mag shoot. So e of these shots are hanging in my downstairs loo. They show a middle aged fella on a medium/high end bike either looking moderatly sweaty or otherwise vaguely interested in remaining upright on a bike. IMO the only really decent photos of mountain bikers are so staged or planned that the chances of recreating that on a race course or more or less NIL. You may as well just capture the riders as they come past you...

Oh that telecom guy in the water splash? MM in either 06 or 07 it was as they say a "target rich environment"..

They show a middle aged fella on a medium/high end bike either looking moderatly sweaty or otherwise vaguely interested in remaining upright on a bike.

What!! you mean you didn't even pull the 'mtb rider face' 😉

[img] ?rnd=619[/img]

The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell!

I used the Clic24 to illustrate a point, in the woods you can get a little more creative and produce some more dramatic images - hopefully, but the Mendips course is very spread out and rather open in nature.

[img] ?rnd=1708[/img]
This was taken at the BORS, which has attracted a reasonably high number of sales, illustrating the earlier point that it's the newer rider who purchases the images.

In this series of images taken on this corner, I've attempted to creatate a sense of depth and perspective, partly by positioning myself on a hill top on a bend but with the use of out of focus riders and a 200mm lens. YOu wait for 10 minutes and 5 riders all appear at the same time! You guys, [i]spread out[/i] so I can better take each of you in turn (it's not a circuit but 4 Merida style distances up to 121km).

The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell!

Correct! I think that's what's being said. You can take nice photos of the race, or you can take photos that will sell, they're [i]rarely [/i]the same thing.

[i]The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell![/i]

Is that Rowberrow at night? Smashing pic.

If only I could learn to take good pictures that sell! 😉

Night time image above was at Clic24 - see this month's MBUK for the full 5 page spread.

YOu wait for 10 minutes and 5 riders all appear at the same time! You guys, spread out so I can better take each of you in turn

The guys who photograph the road sportive events have a slightly irritating habit of snapping two people riding together separately. Eventually, one chap got this one, which (while totally unspectacular) has me and my mates, having a ride together. I bought that one... 🙂

[img] [/img]

Genuine LOL at the t mobile guy 🙂

I would also add that the road photographers IMHO have a harder job.
At least I can lay out all manner of lights to make both the rider and the surrounding trail look interesting, add some mud and you have, to my mind, a slightly easier job of photographing riders.

Oh, and meant to add, there were eventually so many photographers round that water splash the flash going off was like being in the middle of a fireworks display. I was still blinking out the stars in my eyes miles later. I'm sure it was off putting, and difficult for some riders.

But hey, there were probably some good action shots, so that's OK

Off topic slightly, at Swinley the other day there was a guy taking pics at the jumps. Now I'm not very good, but some of the kids are above average (or at least could pull simple tricks on demand).

Now avoiding any legal issues of the fact he was taking photos of kids (a bit silly IMO as long as the Daily Mail and the Sun are still in business).

Whats to stop him taking a pic of me on my 456 getting some rad/sick/tothemax/awesum air. Selling it to On-One to use in an Ad campaign, for millions of £ and retireing?

Ditto race photographers? Who owns the rights to the image, surely the riders must get some say in how their image is used.

EDIT: I appreciate the inaccuracy of my post in stateing that on-one would actualy advertise anything rather than rellying on niche mongers to keep them in business.

Nah - no rights if the photo is taken on public land.

EDIT: Oh wait - actually, if it's for commercial useage, he'd have to get a model release.

Nah - no rights if the photo is taken on public land.

as long as it's not for commercial use... so if said photographer wanted to sell it to on-one for lot's of money for their advertising etc, they'd need to have your permission to do so, AFAIK...

Whats to stop him taking a pic of me on my 456 getting some rad/sick/tothemax/awesum air. Selling it to On-One to use in an Ad campaign, for millions of £ and retireing?

Ditto race photographers? Who owns the rights to the image, surely the riders must get some say in how their image is used.

As I understand it, the subject of the pic has absolutely no rights over it at all, if taken in a public place. You can't stop someone taking a pic, and you have no control over what they do with it. Once you take a pic, it's yours.

Personally, I agree these guys:
http://photographernotaterrorist.org/

EDIT
I'm a bit wrong it seems! I didn't know about the commercial use thing because I only looked into it from the POV of taking pics and selling them to the people I'd photographed. Sorry. 🙂

thats what I thought, but surely there comes a point where its a photograph of someone rather than a photograph of public land that you just happened to be in?

I've seen plenty of BBC/ITV signs back home saying words to the effect of "filming in progress from **am to **pm on **/**/**** to **/**/****. By entering this area you giving your cosncent to have your image used by ITV/BBC and carefully selected* thrid parties"

*anyone who'll pay for the footage

Pap photographers can just rock up to someone's front door, ring the bell, and when they answer, unload a flashgun into their just-out-of-bed face and go publish it. As long as the front door in question is on public land (i.e., a normal road).

It was pouring with rain, and he was halfway down a slippy muddy gully, and he gets a pic of that quality. Well done sir, that's what I'm talking about.

Thanks! 😀

Personally, I try and sustain the professional photographers by buying their images, but that's my own personal take

ah yes, an endangered species like post offices 🙁

What you'll find, increasingly, is that the main events, let's use Mayhem as an exaple, attracts many photographers.

YOu'll have one sanctioned by the event organisers (will they even be a professional photographer this year?)and one probably working for Original Source, but the rest, of whom there will be many, will have no profit in mind; it's just for the pleasure of it that they're there.

One week after Mayhem, Flickr will be awash with images, some good, some awful; most everything will be free. That's why the professionals have all but deserted the main events unless they're being paid to be there or they're going to earn something 1/2 worthwhile from their work, which at Mayhem, they won't.

As I say, taking mtn biking images to sell to the general public is not quite the retirement plan your book keeper had in mind! And we haven't even touched on prices and goods that you can offer to riders.

[img] ?rnd=4148[/img]
Shot for a 5 page magazine article about the Kielder 100 in September.

[img] ?rnd=2986[/img]

[img] ?rnd=528[/img]

That's why the professionals have all but deserted the main events unless they're being paid to be there or they're going to earn something 1/2 worthwhile

and should we care ?

As I understand it, the subject of the pic has absolutely no rights over it at all, if taken in a public place. You can't stop someone taking a pic, and you have no control over what they do with it. Once you take a pic, it's yours.

More or less right: that is only completely true for editorial photography. Once you get into photography which is to be used for advertising, you really should get a model release when the subject of the photo is clearly identifiable. If someone takes your pic and uses it to sell, say, Marmite, when you have a known hatred of marmite, so your mates all start taking the mick and asking why you're advertising a product you hate, well that's where a model release gets the 'tog out of the deep stuff, or allows you to seek recompense yadda yadda yadda

user-removed - Member

EDIT: Oh wait - actually, if it's for commercial useage, he'd have to get a model release.

Is this correct? Pretty sure the usage is irrelevant (or it used to be). Otherwise, how would photo-journalists/paparazzi photogs go about their business.

Oh, NBT answered that...

Oliver Coats is the best bike photographer out there bar none.

Again, it's work that will barely cover the mortgage. If it was, the specialist photographers would be VAT registered; you’re barely making a living selling various sized jpegs for well under £20 at mtn biking events.

As regards copyright, no advertiser / client will touch any copy without the relevant model releases, unless they think they can get away with it, and here I’m thinking about the Press Complaints procedure or a civil prosecution, which is slightly off-topic.

Here's one I bought. Worth it I thought. [img] [/img]

Joolze does some great work and manages to get a decent mix of "every rider in the race" and arty/action-y/different shots.
I've bought a few shots of hers from over the years, my favourite is this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joolzed/2449706664/in/set-72157604780098289/
(can't copy/paste direct and yes, I did purchase it from her!).

There's a mix though of people who just do it for fun (a bit like me) and occasionally manage to get something vaguely decent to people doing it professionally but badly to folk who get it right every time.

TBH, the only real way to make something approaching a few bob at an event is to be officially accredited, otherwise you have to rely upon posts on a few web forums which is not good enough.

I think to make a good living doing event photography the setup with the camera in one place and machine gun the shutter is probably the way forward. I've seen it at plenty of triathlons and other events too. No art, no risks taken, just a shot of a racer racing.

That way you get a picture of everybody, and the more photographs you have of more people, then the more likely you are to sell sufficient to pay your wages.

Iirc a road photographer said on Monday he had 15K photos online from one of this weekend's gone events. Which suggest there is one of everybody.

Most riders are not photographers, and are quite happy with any picture of themselves at the race.

'One in particular had more kit than anyone I've ever seen at a race, all mounted on a tripod, and seemingly taking pics automatically as riders passed. He sat there looking bored stiff. If you were there, you'd have seen him. You couldn't really miss him!'

Well, I can only appolagise for that.
The reason the trap is out there is to make sure that everyone got a snap and to be honest I don't think those were really that bad. Guess it depends how commited you were at that point.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

The guy that was with the gear was there for several reasons.
1- To look after the gear
2- To pause the trap when the solos came back through, then later, the pairs so they don't get continuously flashed at.
3- To gee on the riders, he obviously failed on this point.

There were 2 other photographers out there + myself, and I agree most of the pics look very much the same but the problem we have is to get 3 or 4 sharp images of every rider. On top of this, with a team of say 4, you will get just 1 chance of a photo in minimum 2 hours

This means taking 25 shots and getting 1 or 2 good ones is pretty much out of the question.

Last week at the SPAM Set2Rise I spent alot of time on slow panning shots, you get about 75% keeper rate on these and compared to 90% from the usuall head on type. Granted the panning shots look much better, however... I must have sold about 5% panning shots to 50% trap shots - go figure.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img][

It'd be interesting to learn what the visitor to number of actual sales people are making (see my figures earlier in the post) as some events I've shot, people have bought 18x12 prints at £70 which convinced me not to sell jpegs from the outset and work on a smaller number of sales providing quality prints - just as I do in my social photography business.

This means a certain amount of admin and might from time to time lead to other sales. It also means I do occationally miss out on sales if riders want the full sized images, which is akin to buying the negatives, this runs against the grain as I see it.

This printing of my images is very satisfying from a professional perspective & I always try to have 2x remote flash units out on the trail on any given image and try never use direct flash. I need to select my locations with care based on these criteria - not always easy.

I appreciate others work selling different sized jpegs, and that there's no Right or Wrong in this, just different business plans and ideas.

Nothing technically special about these photos from Bristol, but I reckon they show an imaginative angle that the professionals don't get and they make a good souvenir of the event.

Jumping on the bike at the start.
[img] [/img]

And almost 12 hours later.
[img] [/img]

Nothing technically special about these photos from Bristol

you're not wrong

Yes, but if the choice is between technically good or imaginative photos, I'll go for those two as a reminder of my day.

just dont understand why people would pay for photos of their arse as they ride along, or a plain old riding along fireroad. MUST have something about it. i like these ones... all captured during DH races (maybe more exciting?)

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

angle that the professionals don't get

Now I wonder why that would be?
Maybe you're new around bike events:

The professionals are either:
1) 25m ahead of the pack in a vehicle / better placed that this first shot 💡
2) out on the trail awaiting the first riders through 💡

A tip: photograph riders from the front as you're not ID'ing anyone from these angles (no race numbers) - ergo you won't sell any images.

You won't see the magazines picking up the tab for your day rate ever again with images like this. You need to shoot what either sells to the riders or sells the magazine. A little blunt - but best to let you down now before you dig yourself even further into the mire.

Yay this thread contains lots of my favourite things - photography, mountain biking, PP being pompous (again), and Ti29er being even more pompous (again). 🙂

Ti29er you must be a good salesman to be selling basic looking snaps with a blown out sky like this to a magazine

[img] [/img]

Here's my favourite pic of me from the Mega which I bought.

[img] [/img]

You won't see the magazines picking up the tab for your day rate ever again with images like this. You need to shoot what either sells to the riders or sells the magazine. A little blunt - but best to let you down now before you dig yourself even further into the mire.

Was he claiming to be a professional? I thought he was just saying he liked those photos and they were different to the norm?

I've said it before Tim, but I really don't think you're God's gift to photography, as you seem to think! Not saying I could do any better, but I find your preaching a little odd and rather tiresome.

Oy Vey! This will run and run! Re selling 'files' as opposed to prints, well I do both (for weddings and events) and do fairly well out of both types of sale.

I just think well why miss out on a £2.50 sale of a web-sized pic at 72dpi?

Well done to the Photo-It guy for giving a good explanation and not biting 🙂

Its also him in the shots, 'this is me at the beginning' and 'this is me at the end'. Narrative shots, he's not tryign to sell them to nayone, they're just narrative shots, which are still more interesting than boring 'head on shots'.

Lovely Mather BTW Graham.

As for 'depends how committed you were at that point', heh! I was far more committed on the little descent just before that spot, than I am on a flat lame bit of track, and where I was pushign it, at that point I was usually bottlenecked behind bimblers at that point ... the better place for 'committment' would be lactate alley on the drag to the hairpin 200 yrds later on ...

Narrative shots, he's not tryign to sell them to nayone, they're just narrative shots, which are still more interesting than boring 'head on shots'.

but he only imagined they were imaginative 🙂

Well done to the Photo-It guy for giving a good explanation and not biting

Seconded. 🙂

And chuckling at "lactate alley"...

As Grum pointed out, selling is everything in a business, something njee still fails to understand.

It's not how good someone is, it's how they sell both themsleves and their work. That's why njee will (always?) work for someone else or until he better comprehends the power of sales and marketing and applies them to his own skills set, which I'd like to add, I would never lambast on a public forum (poor form, yet again, njee).

[img] [/img][url= http://www.px3.fr/winners/cat_details.php?cat_name=Advertising&compName=PX3%202009&pro=pro ]PX3 Awards. [/url]

I think it’s also worth noting that one man meat is another’s poison and photography in particular is very much a personal perspective.

Even a cursory look at the famous PX3 International Awards would reveal that I won outright the Automobile (professional) category, scored a 3rd in another and was awarded 5 commendations, perhaps revealing more about njee’s visual illiteracy & unnecessary snide comments than mere words on a web forum.

A sound illustration of what Grum was saying, concentrate upon sales & marketing & the rest will fall into place.

May seem like "Toys out of the Pram" but when some snideness pops up and slags your life's work off, a little defence is called for.

I think Ti29er wins the international "toys out of the pram" award (this thread category) by some margin. 🙂

I think Ti29er wins the international "toys out of the pram" award

[b]how very dare you![/b] He's got an [u][b]award[/b][/u]!!

It's pretty funny - I was basically slagging off Ti29er too - but he's somehow managed to see it as a complement. 🙂

Honestly - if you are going to go around acting the 'big I am' don't get upset when people pull you up on it. Giving out harsh unasked for criticism on other people's pictures is a bit rich when some of yours are frankly pretty poor (and some are very good and yes I know you won an award blah blah blah).

Yay this thread contains lots of my favourite things - photography, mountain biking, PP being pompous (again), and Ti29er being even more pompous (again).

I think it just annoys you that people do actually agree with me! 😉

That said, the photographers that have replied here seem to have good points and logical explanations of why they do what they do, so thanks for that you guys. 🙂

(i still think you're churning out too much mediocre stuff though)

You need to get out and ride more my friend, or put your brain into gear before opening your big gob

Oooh, PP in a snit ? Isn't [b]grum[/b] broken and almost unable to ride ? In which case that's below the belt 🙁

I would like to buy photos of my self from events, most of the photos i have seen (of me) that have been done by the pro's are great (dispite the subject matter)

[img] [/img]

The only problem i have is the price of the pic's, nearly £9 per pic is a bit steep i think. Hence why i have stoped buying them 🙁

Anyone can sit in their ivory tower and hurl insults you know!

Now seriously, I'm no great shakes as a photographer

Two statements of fact from PP.

SFB - So what if he is? I'm meant to know the ins and outs of every STWers injuries now am I?
It doesn't seem to affect his ability to (poorly) insult people. And if you can't take it, don't start dishing it out! 😉

Those in glass houses etc...... 🙂

EDIT
I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

Grow up.

Goodnight everyone, have a lovely evening. 😀

It's pretty funny - I was basically slagging off Ti29er too - but he's somehow managed to see it as a complement.

Aah, you see Grum, me and Tim have 'history', you need to spend longer slagging him off!

You do undoubtedly take some good photos Tim, throw enough sh1t at a wall and what not. I don't think your photos of cyclists are very good though. No, I'm not going to do better, I have no real interest in standing around for hours at a time, I'd rather be riding my bike. I just find it amusing that you feel able to critique absolutely every one elses photos, despite not exactly being well known in cycling circles as a photographer.

Slightly intrigued that this came back to my working practices though, not totally sure of the relevance there...

I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

was I having a go ? Seems to me you're being oversensitive today! And [b]grum[/b]'s been rabbiting on about ME or something for about a year now...
Peter I think you're a great guy but that doesn't magically inoculate you against being teased when you sound off :o)

I fear 'growing up' is beyond me and the best I can hope for is a gradual decline into dementia...

I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

Grow up.

You're the one who started it. You're critising a photographer earning his living doing what he know best. Who are you to judge?

You don't want to buy a photo, then don't. If you want a photographer to show you looking like a riding god in a variety of poses, then commission one to do so.

If you want a photographer to show you looking like a riding god in a variety of poses, then commission one to do so.

And if that is what you want I can recommend Steve Behr, his attention to detail is impressive, guess he's been one of MBUK's top photographers for decades for a reason!

However... he doesn't shoot events, maybe he realises there's no money in that, or he's just not as good at it. Take note Tim, you can be good at some types of photography, and not others!

FWIW... which is next to nowt.. I personally think that the pan shots are naff..

Now if we can just find a photographer that can accurately capture pomposity..........

You're critising a photographer earning his living doing what he know best. Who are you to judge?

Hilarious 🙂 I think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline! Unless they start handing out awards to speed cameras 🙂 One shouldn't confuse money making with art...

think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline!

And if you can't take it, don't start dishing it out!

[img] [/img]

Hilarious I think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline! Unless they start handing out awards to speed cameras One shouldn't confuse money making with art...

Remote photography is used more and more in sporting events. Getty and other big press photographers use it at all the major athletic champs.

In the 100 metres at a big international event there will be a bank of cameras all controlled remotely to capture the race.

It's not supposed to be art in that instance. It's a record of a person competing in an event.

, or get paid by selling lots of photos, doesn't it...

you're right of course, the absolute measure of merit is money

simonfbarnes - Member

, or get paid by selling lots of photos, doesn't it...

you're right of course, the absolute measure of merit is money

If you're self employed be you an artist or an engineer, the merit of your work is indicated in some way by the money you earn?