[Closed] PSA lorry blind spot video....

you can loose vans in the blind spot never mind bikes

oooh maybe not

The reason for that incident was the Cleo driver who went straight from the slip road in the trucks blind spot to the middle lane. The truck driver was found not at fault and Cleo driver, a female vet, confirmed what had happened.

Yeah I saw the story, car drivers do stupid stuff nothing new there, the fact the HGV driver was scooting down the motorway at 60 oblivious to the car he was shunting along is the worrying part.

If the country [b]needs[/b] HGVs then fair enough, keep em, but i think it would be fair to say they need some attention if they are going to stay on our public roads

So are we saying that it's still the truck drivers fault that he didn't see the car or feel it either as it was pushed to the front. A freak accident.
Yes we do need trucks on the road unless you want see the cost of goods skyrocket

i drive an daf xf 105 which has six mirror's on it, 2 each side on the doors, 1 above the passenger door looking directly down to the kerb and 1 above the windscreen on the passenger side which looks down on the front nearside corner and across the front under the windscreen and yes it still possible to loose vehicle's in blindspots.

A few weeks ago whilst going a long the A5 at shrewsbury there was a large number of cyclists (150+) travelling along in groups, i passed a group of 7 or 8, but then had to stop at a set of lights a few hundred meters further down the road, the group caught up whilst i was stationary and squeezed themselves between me and the kerb with barely room for their handlebars, the lights change and i wait for them to set off which they do, just as i'm about to start moving another group catch up and decide to also squeeze down the side, some people are just ****ing stupid, if i hadn't have been checking my mirrors i could have squashed the lot.

So are we saying that it's still the truck drivers fault

Donk are you stupid or just fail to understand that it is impossible to cover all blind spots on a truck

some people are just ****ing stupid, if i hadn't have been checking my mirrors i could have squashed the lot.

quick question, if whilst driving I don't check my blind spot before overtaking or pulling out and hit something/someone would I be at fault or could I blame the car/bike that was in my blind spot? pretty sure I'd get most of the blame

Whilst a lot of cyclists endanger themselves by cycling up the inside of HGVs (and should have training) surely any HGV that is driven through built-up areas should be required to have additional mirrors/cameras to eliminate (or drastically reduce) the blind spots.

That's really not the answer. You can have as many mirrors and sensors and cameras as you want but if the driver does a scan of all 12 mirrors and TV screens and while he's scanning mirrors 10-12, someone rides up his inside through 1-3, they're still not going to be seen.

I cycled through London earlier today during rush hour on a Boris Bike and f*** me, there was some idiotic riding going on.
Just YESTERDAY, someone died cos he rode up the inside of a bus so what do I see today? Folk squeezing up the inside of lorries, buses etc, sometimes with literally an inch of space between the bus to their right and a wall or railing to their left. If that vehicle started moving, they'd have stood no chance. The one saving grace is that there were so many cyclists (of all abilities) around that actually they were outnumbering the cars so in that respect there was safety in numbers. In fact at some junctions it looked like a Wacky Races version of the Tour de France, there were that many cyclists.

Education is the answer - both for traffic planners who put in these daft cycle lanes and for the cyclists themselves. And all drivers (regardless of vehicle) need the message ramming home that often (especially in stop start rush hour traffic) it's safer and easier to just let the bike go and not try to overtake it - it'll only catch you up 200m down the road again.

donk that truck does not have a mirror mounted above the windscreen meaning if the driver is sat back in his seat he may well not see the car straight away, the legisation regarding mirrors has changed now and all trucks built after 2008 i think, have to have one mounted above the windscreen, it used to be possible to stand about 25 people under an artic windscreen and not be able to see any of them from the drivers seat.

The drivers are not ignorant of their blind spots, they try to minimise the risks when they can as mentioned by izakimak but you can't exclude all and hence why accidents happen

Donk are you stupid or just fail to understand that it is impossible to cover all blind spots on a truck

BTW I guess I'll add I used to occasionally ride up the inside of trucks, especially if there was a cycle lane, completely oblivious of the dangers, then I saw a video like the OP and promptly changed my behaviour and have been nervous of HGVs ever since.

I often see bikes going up the inside of HGVs/ Buses as I go around the outside and think 'am I going to see you on the other side'?
Some people are just divs.

you can hang as many mirrors as you want off the doors of a truck to try to eliminate blindspots and what will actually happen is you will create more because the position the mirrors are put in will stop the drivers line of sight as he/she looks out of the window to see traffic approaching from the front/side at roundabouts. it is already an issue on some makes of truck due to the size/positioning of the mirrors.

If you can find a better way of moving large volumes of goods around without putting more vehicles on the road or increasing the cost of goods they're delivering you or whoever finds the answer will be very rich.
Driving HGVs isn't easy and the more crowded roads get the more stressful the job. Rather than slagging the job off an understanding of what's involved might help

donk what is your solution then? 1 artic can deliver 28t of goods, if you put those goods in transit size vans that means about 20 vans with twenty drivers all going hell for leather to get tipped first and the roads will be even more congested.

so at the risk of putting yourself out of a job izakimak would you say HGV design needs a rethink?

Rather than slagging the job off an understanding of what's involved might help

donk what is your solution then?

An example of a typical drivers conversation:

D1: were you going then?
D2: tossbury's in Knobtown
D1: ha ha unlucky mate that's a shit drop, nightmare getting in round the tight corner the car drivers wont stop to let you back in and when they do there's always one who can't wait a minute and tries to squeeze any possible gap available. The staff aren't very helpful when it comes to stopping traffic cause thy have been told they are not allowed to cause of h&s.

I could go on

Donk, unfortunately trucks are a necessary evil. Everything you buy, use or sell, at some point moves about on a truck.

If a vehicle doesn't meet the legislation then it is can't be sold in this country. Most of the legislation regarding hgv's is determined by brussels so eu wide anyway.

we could just move ALL the shops out of town, and board everything in town up 😉

Donk, unfortunately trucks are a necessary evil. Everything you buy, use or sell, at some point moves about on a truck.

OK how about only using HGVs for motorways (maybe dual carriageways) and have distribution points at motorway junctions?

anyway I'm knackered after a busy day STWing I'm off to bed.

Most of the legislation regarding hgv's is determined by brussels so eu wide anyway.

Donk you still don't get it. Accidents happen, you can't eliminate all the blind spots, cyclist need to know this too.
If a truck is waiting at traffic lights indicating that it turning left then the cyclist should hold back or go to the right of the vehicle. If they continue down the left then the cyclist is at fault but since they wouldn't have aware of the blindspot it would be seen as an accident
If a truck driver is approaching a junction where they want to turn left and they have cyclist in front of them the driver should hold back. If the driver overtakes the cyclist putting them into his blindspot then driver is at fault and will be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention.
I hope this helps you understand as it could save your life and everyone else that you pass this bit of knowledge onto

Whilst it may not be possible to eliminate the blind spot it is not impossible to improve the visibility hereby you can see that many cyclists at your side or notice a car stuck to your bumper.

Of course cyclist knowledge is great as well but it is not an either or scenario...why not do both?

FWIW I dont think he is advocating being in the blind spot or being unaware of it just simply asking/suggesting we should improve this by reducing it if possible

is it just me? but it's pure common sense not to go anywhere near the inside of a lorry if you are on a bike. Just avoid or wait! one of the first things I learned instinctively from cycling in London was don't go on the inside of anything big if it looks like it's going to turn or something.and I'm daft on a bike.

There should be a national advert campaign - like the old green cross code ones, or the clunk-click every trip ones - based on that video to try to increase national awareness of the issue facing truck drivers.

I drove em for twenty years, driving one through London is ****in scary...
I'm surprised there isn't multiple deaths every day tbh...Cyclists need awareness training as much as hgv drivers IMO...

They do,but the real answer to this problem is the awareness of the drivers. It's 2012.. why the hell is a lorry fitted with multiple mirrors that don't do their job? How can a vehicle be legal to drive if the driver can't see someone straddling a motorcyclist/cyclist next to him? In a car there's going to be a blind spot but at least its still possible to see someone straddling a bike around 5ft off the ground.

That's shocking. Every cyclist should see that video.
After I learnt a few years ago that most cyclist deaths in London were left turning lorries I stay behind them, go nowhere near.
If they overtake me I keep a very close eye and ready to brake or get off the road

is it just me? but it's pure common sense not to go anywhere near the inside of a lorry if you are on a bike. Just avoid or wait

I think that's the only practical solution.
There's absolutely no point in being 100% correct according to the highway code or the letter of the law when you're as vulnerable as a cyclist in a busy urban environment.
Being perfect in everything you do won't stop you getting crushed by a bus or a truck.

I genuinely can't see a better solution to the problem than cyclists not going up the inside of large vehicles. It's common sense, if it's big and it might crush you on a corner, don't go up the inside of it.

I'm not surprised to see those people next to the lorry and out of sight of the driver. If you can't see the driver, then he can't see you. But heres an idea. Shouldn't those lorries now be fitted with a side view camera ?. A wide angle lens camera with a monitor in the cab. I've seen this for passenger cars with a display built into the dashboard, to show an image from a rear mounted camera.

But the clear issue is that with all the cameras, warning devices and alarms in the world, you're still relying on someone else, who may well be concentrating on other things (lights, oncoming turning traffic, ped crossings, street names, dead prostitute in the back, etc. etc.) and like it or not, humans make mistakes, they miss things they could have or should have noticed. It would be nice if they didn't, but they do.

Theres a simple action that we, as cyclists, can take to mitigate this risk and take control of the situation back into our own hands, by not putting ourselves in danger. It may not solve everything in one go, but its an effective, simple and failsafe method of reducing that risk.

But heres an idea. Shouldn't those lorries now be fitted with a side view camera ?. A wide angle lens camera with a monitor in the cab.

As I said earlier (somewhere on page 2) that really isn't the answer. If the driver is looking at a TV screen in the cab, he's not looking at the road. If he takes his eyes off the screen to look at the road, a rider can easily pass unnoticed through the picture.

I have the utmost admiration for anyone driving long vehicles like that in cramped spaces. I've driven 4-ton trucks on airfields and delicate moves in that were tricky enough, I'd hate to try the same in a built up area!

Simple answer is DON'T GO UP THE INSIDE. The worry with lorries having all this extra safety gear is that riders will think "oh he'll see me in his million mirrors, it'll be fine"

You'd complain if a driver cut you up while you were turning. That's effectively what cyclists do to long vehicles - cut them up and prevent them from doing their manoeuvre as they intend.

[i]It may not solve everything [/i]

I wouldn't suggest that a side mounted camera and a display in the cab would solve everything, its just an idea I had after viewing the video. But You are right, not having cyclists there in the first place would be better to start with. As injury and death happen when cyclists and motor vehicles come together, we should keep them apart. which I think has already been discussed, ie, cycle lanes, etc.

I still like the side view camera though. An HGV driver shouldn't move off until he's checked his mirrors and possibly a display in the cab, showing an area the mirrors can't cover. Solving issues as complex as what happens in traffic and on our roads is likely to benefit from applying several ideas and solutions together.

EDIT:
Yes, I agree, better education of cyclists would help too.

Izakimak has already pointed out that's it's not a simply case of just adding more mirrors as this creates another blind spot where the mirror is so you wouldn't spot the pedestrian stepping off the kerb becaause they are hidden behind a mirror.
Camera would be a good if the cyclist stayed still but crazy-legs pointed out they move about and the cyclist that was on camera 1 is now on camera 3 but by the time you've moved off another cyclist has moved onto 1 and it too late they're under the wheels.
The mirrors are normally convexed at the edges to give a wider view, with articulated trucks the trailer and truck move at different angles so mirrors get blocked by the trailer itself. A rear pointing camera's mounted on the front of the trailer may help hear but again do you want a driver looking at video screens or looking were they are driving.
As Kevev and Wisepranker said just don't go down the left hand side of trucks. You can put as many mirrors and cameras on a truck as you want creating new blindspots and problems for other roadusers/pedestrians. Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too.
TurnerGuy has it the nail on the head with making more cyclist aware of the danger.

[i]Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too[/i]

Thats sort of what I said in my first post. About if you can't see the driver, then they can't see you.

The video showed cyclists [u]standing still[/u] at the side of the cab, out of the field of view of the mirror[b]s[/b] just as you would see at a traffic light controlled junction or round about. I was depending on the driver having to check his mirrors and the display in the cab [b]before moving off[/b]. I think one wide angle or fish eye lens camera could cover a wider field of view off the near side of the cab ?. And I was thinking just one camera, above the passenger door, looking down onto the exact blindspot shown in the video.

It was just an idea to supplement the other suggestions here and to contribute to what is probably several measures that could be considered to prevent this type of accident.

Just out of curiosity...how many people who have posted arguments above along the lines of 'lorry drivers should know...etc etc' have actually driven HGVs themselves?

I've an HGV licence.
As Izakimak has pointed out, even more mirrors actually cause more blindspots, especially with regard to roundabouts and exiting side streets. My last trip into London (DAF CF 26T rigid, pretty long though, 6 mirrors and a rear view camera to keep an eye on) involved the following junction - [url= http://goo.gl/maps/CQpVN ]Junction[/url] I was waiting to turn left here, sat still with indicator on, straddling both lanes as with all the traffic coming out of the side road blocking the yellow box, there wasn't much room to swing the vehicle. As I sat there I watched a cyclist come up my inside, passing from being visible in rear view camera, rear view mirror, blindspot mirror, and then disappearing from view. He stopped I think, level with the cab, but too far away to be in my kerb mirror, and not far enough forward to be in the front view mirror. Lights go green, I set off straight forwards, looking for the cyclist, still can't see him but assume he is still there. I had to stop before actually turning as I still couldn't see him, at which point he rides from my blind spot and continues straight ahead FFS! So he's ridden up the inside of a large vehicle past the indicators, stopped where he can't be seen, and then seemingly expects me to know where he is and what he intends to do. Cyclists really do need educating on this.

A loop or 2 of the back streets and I find myself having to reverse into this market [url= http://goo.gl/maps/61U0q ]Market[/url] I couldn't believe the amount of people who drove (yep, on the pavement bit), walked, cycled and pushed their prams behind me as I tied to complete this manoeuvre. I was fortunate in having 2 folk from the factory I was collecting from trying to help me, but even so, trying to keep up with everything that's going on is nigh on impossible. It wasn't until a policeman turned up and started shouting at people to stop going behind me that I was confident enough to complete backing in.

I'm not saying all lorry drivers are saints, I've been forced of the road (on my bike) before by HGV's, but cyclists really do need to know just where they can and can't be seen.
Better education is the answer, not more mirrors, sensors and cameras, after all, if I'm looking at a screen in the dashboard, I'm not looking at the wide angle mirrors to see what's about to go behind me etc
I'm just grateful that driving HGV's is only a small part of my job.
Oh, and regarding using more but smaller vehicles, the collection I was doing that day would have needed either the 26T I was in, or 3 7.5T trucks, the machinery simply wouldn't have fitted in anything smaller.

That went on a bit didn't it!

You can only look in one mirror at a time, you can plaster mirrors and cameras all over a wagon and cover every blind spot but the driver only has two eyes..the answer is three words long...educashun educashun educashun....
every day there's a contender for the Darwin award when you're an hgv driver...

Actually, on reflection - maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the "caution, this vehicle is reversing"

Luminous - Member

Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too

Thats sort of what I said in my first post. About if you can't see the driver, then they can't see you.

The video showed cyclists standing still at the side of the cab, out of the field of view of the mirrors just as you would see at a traffic light controlled junction or round about. I was depending on the driver having to check his mirrors and the display in the cab before moving off. I think one wide angle or fish eye lens camera could cover a wider field of view off the near side of the cab ?. And I was thinking just one camera, above the passenger door, looking down onto the exact blindspot shown in the video.

It was just an idea to supplement the other suggestions here and to contribute to what is probably several measures that could be considered to prevent this type of accident.

Zulu-Eleven - Member
Actually, on reflection - maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the "caution, this vehicle is reversing"

[i]So he's ridden up the inside of a large vehicle [b]past the indicators[/b], stopped where he can't be seen, and then seemingly expects me to know where he is and what he intends to do[/i]

I can't help but sympathise with the good drivers who have to deal with that type of thing. For a rider to pass along the inside/left side of a lorry WITH its left turn signal ON, is asking for trouble, imo.

[i]Most other road users know not to go down the inside of truck but cyclist still persist in doing so. The answer really is to stay back, a few seconds advantage isn't worth your life.[/i]

Spot on and its brings the topic back to what others are saying ^^ that cyclists really shouldn't be putting themselves into that position in relation to a vehicle. [u]I agree that education is going to be the biggest effect[/u] which is why someone made that video in the first place.

I won't push the camera thing, but if Ben had a monitor and mirrors, I bet he'd use them all. Looking at a monitor doesn't exclude using a mirror. Using a camera might actually replace the kerbside mirror if its feild of vision was greater than that of the mirror.

[i]Actually, on reflection - maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the "caution, this vehicle is reversing"[/i]
I think that would be worth considering.

but if Ben had a monitor and mirrors, I bet he'd use them all. Looking at a monitor doesn't exclude using a mirror

Oh, and with regard to replacing the kerb mirror with a wider view camera, I think you would need it [i]in addition to[/i] the mirrors. It might fail, but more likely it gets a drop of rain on it rendering it useless. Which comes back to how many things you are trying to look at. Also you are having to (especially in the dark/low light) work out how many cyclists you are seeing. Are the 2 in the camera the same 2 in the wide angle mirror, and is the 1 in the rear view mirror 1 of those 2, or an additional body to keep an eye on. Like so many have said (and without trying to absolve any HGV driver of responsibility) cyclists really do need educating about where is and where isn't a safe place to be.

This video shows a lot more of the blind spots..

Actually, on reflection - maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the "caution, this vehicle is reversing"

Yeah, that'd be great, sitting at a junction with 3 or 4 lorries all indicating and voices coming from each one saying "Caution, vehicle turning" 🙄
All you need is a TV ad campaign. Not some massively expensive exercise in fitting mirrors, cameras, sensors, voice warnings etc to every lorry in the UK. A re-jig of the driving test would be useful too but since that involves politics the simplest, cheapest, most cost effective way of saving lives in the short term is to tell the cyclists: STAY AWAY FROM BIG VEHICLES.

I know it can be viewed as "putting the blame" on the most vunerable road user which is wrong but from a simple short term solution, you can then start to implement all the other measures (mostly road re-design).