[Closed] Professional road cyclists and lack of self preservation - TdF spoiler content

Yeah, they should ride around in Sumo Suits or just settle on pushing bikes around instead of riding them.

Cyclings terribly dangerous, it ought to be banned.

Spoiler!

Where was my spoiler alert? I'm guessing that's not something that you get up from.

BTW please don't answer that!

Try being a jump jockey.
Modern life is so risk averse, sports has danger attached to it. Managed obvs. Unless you're a free climber.

Some riders can take 3 minutes off you on a mountain climb but then lose it on the descent.

Some riders have better handling skills than others.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pinot-to-drive-racing-car-to-improve-descending/

Ffs

Ooo, you'll have upset a fair few people with this thread.

ball..sorry guys...

Can someone flag to the mods to add a spolier in the title..

Who was it that was gonna chuck it cos he was so scared of the descents? Pinot?.

Aye, jockeys are hardy buggers. Saw the video ruby Walsh did recent when a guy on Twitter accused him of taking a tumble? Well worth a watch, took him on a cattle truck across a field at 40 odd mph and told him to jump off, see how he got on.....

I've got the answer..

No, I [b]really[/b] have the answer..

2 options:
A) make the riders use disc brakes, because as every commuter knows "they rock"
B) have the climb part of the stage, then every rider either jump on the team bus or take the uplift (thier choice) then neutralise the stage whilst everyone soft peddles until the last 3k.

Fixed.

I should work for the UCI me.

Oh, and really, a spoiler? If anyone wanting to see the highlights later, then they really should avoid a thread titled as such, common sense.

Pinot?

Pinot?

Simple really, there's enough utter psychos around that if you want to win you have to take brain out and follow at some point.

Even on local weekly training APR's, some of the risks i see being taken are to me insane - bikes leant over at 35+ mph on broken horrible surfaces.

I rather let the wheel go and catch back on even if it means burning a few matches

Many riders including Porte rode the descent as part of La Dauphine and would have recc'd many of the key stages. Thankfully there have only been 3 deaths in major races since 1995 - Casartelli, Kivilev and Weylandt. Whilst there were some damp patches due to previous rain, it wasn't that dangerous in comparison to some conditions - it's a risk all riders knowingly take

Not convinced it's the most dangerous by a long way. Plenty of people in certain 'extreme sports' that have broken more bones than they can probably count. And I don't think all cyclists break a bone every season - Unless you're Geraint Thomas: in which case you do it every race.

I think it's one of those things. You start out. Risk has nothing to do with it. Then the risks come...so you blank them out. If you don't blank them out, then you quit, and sit at home talking about it on the internet, like us 😀

bookmarking this for a read after I've watched today's highlights.

Here's a goodun from a couple of years ago

I'd imagine it's the Will to win, you end up pushing that little envelope a bit too hard sometimes and it bites you in the ass.

Even though Pinot is a bit bobbins at descending - within the pro ranks he'd probably show an awful lot of weekend warriors a clean pair of carbon soled disco slippers while road descending. Likewise Cav is "rubbish" at climbing.....

I would say they take a calculated risk: It's a win-at-all-cost attitude. Sometimes it doesn't go well, sometimes it does.

I think by insinuating a "lack of self preservation" you are underestimating their bike skills: They know how to ride a bike fast, and use it. We all do it, it's just that their skills allow them to go faster than many, with an inevitable increase in consequences.

Do you feel like you have no sense of self-preservation every time you get in your car, or get on your bike?

I came back from a serious crash (in training; fifteen fractures) to keep keep racing. I was never a gifted descender but now I'm worse! I had two loss of consciousness crashes last season too. Neither were my fault. You accept the risks every time you sign on.

Being in the race helps you switch off from concentrating on the risks. G seems to just be unlucky. A lot.

seemed to me that they tried to pick a pretty "wide and flat road" route on the early stages to try and reduce the early doors carnage of previous tours, hasn't really worked out for them riders are dropping like flys, hospital bed shot on twitter is become positively de rigueur

Early on in the stage they were shocked to see Vockler dropped on the descents, as if he just wasn't up for playing in the damp. Watching it had a feel that something was going to go wrong, the FDJ push made everyone try and stay on there. It only takes a fraction more to lift one or two of the guys out of comfort and skill sets.

On this one Dan Martin's comment that "The organisers got what they wanted"

On this one Dan Martin's comment that "The organisers got what they wanted"

Boardman reckoned that the descents were within normal boundaries of danger for a pro and that they could control their own speed. Look at Bardet getting from Froome, Froome just wasn't prepared to push the envelope as much.

And I'd say everyone is entitled to an optinon, I'll take the ones from the guy in the middle of it yesterday.
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/989360195651/TDF-2017-Porte-crash-reactions
You can listen to his comments of the geo stuff works for this.

Meh. The "guy in the middle of it" has a DS who said Porte made a mistake and the descent wasn't too bad (although both Martin and Holm clearly need to be reminded to check brakes after getting a neutral wheel so perhaps neither are to be believed). Obviously the guys who crashed complain and the guys who don't crash don't complain. Bardet nailed it, Froome was fast and the rest were on the ragged edge trying to keep up which I think was the main problem.

There's 2 different things here, Porte/yesterdays stage and descending in general.

From my perspective, I think Boardman has it right, it was a tough descent but riders have the choice of how hard to push. Bardet is a fine descender and rode away, Froome is now pretty good too and rode fast enough to keep everyone on their toes but seemed in control, as did Uran. Porte is not as good at all, his crash was caused by a mistake he made, it was nasty but I'd suggest it was his decision to push that hard. You have to remember that GC is to the best overall rider, not the best climber or the best TTer, the best overall and descending is part of that.

I'm not sure that a fast descent near the end of a very tough mountain stage is particularly sensible.

it was a tough descent but riders have the choice of how hard to push. Bardet is a fine descender and rode away, Froome is now pretty good too and rode fast enough to keep everyone on their toes but seemed in control, as did Uran. Porte is not as good at all, his crash was caused by a mistake he made, it was nasty but I'd suggest it was his decision to push that hard.

The significant gap Froome made on a descent last year is likely to be playing on the minds of some of the other GC competitors who might normally not be pushing so hard on a damp twisty descent.

I'm not sure that a fast descent near the end of a very tough mountain stage is particularly sensible.

I don't entirely agree. It's their job to decide how fast to ride, uphill you have to make sure you don't blow up, downhill you have to make sure you don't crash. There is skill to both in knowing how hard to push yourself.

I don't entirely agree. It's their job to decide how fast to ride, uphill you have to make sure you don't blow up, downhill you have to make sure you don't crash. There is skill to both in knowing how hard to push yourself.

Riders are always going to push themselves to the limit, it goes with the job, so it's always the case that the tiniest miscalculation can result in a very nasty accident. The arguments saying that it is down to the riders seem reminiscent of motor racing in the 1960s.

The arguments saying that it is down to the riders seem reminiscent of motor racing in the 1960s.

The problem is, its hard to have mountain stages without descents. The nature of pro cycling is they cover vast distances where it's impossible to make every single part of it safe, unlike in motor racing. Even if you were to remove the descent and turn the Mont du Chat into a summit finish (hard, there's not much room up there), you'd still have had a plethora of crashes earlier in the stage that you couldn't do much about. The ONLY person who crashed on this descent (we'll ignore Martin's second crash as it was related to the first which wasn't his fault) was Porte as far as I can tell. Around 180-190 riders got down safely.

I predicted there would be a big stack on that descent, and I predicted it would be either Porte or Froome. Anyone who watched the Dauphine saw how those 2 basically used that descent to stamp their authority on the Tour, weeks before it started.

They both pushed it to the absolute limit and took risks in a bid to unsettle the other rider, but I suspect Porte got found out: he's not as skilled a descender and he's not as cool in temperament.

Horrible crash, and it brought back horrible memories for me, lying in a similar fetal position on the tarmac waiting for the ambulance to come and scrape me up a couple of years back. But it's part and parcel of bike racing. You can't sanitise it - if you try and find safer roads, people will just push harder to find the limit there.

Boardman nailed it - part of the game. Porte ran out of ability on that descent. Hope he's ok.

FWIW 14 or so drivers died in F1 cars in the 1960's, so I'd say the situation here is very different. Yes, the riders are expected to decide for themselves what to do, but the risk of serious injury or death is much lower.

That descent was incredibly scary to watch at the speeds riders were going, on a freshly tarmacked surface, that was damp from earlier rain. Chris Boardman rode earlier in the day and was concerned about what may happen in the race.

Just like in last year's Olympic road race (where leader in women race wiped out on the flood gutters), I have to question why there isn't more safety measures in place to reduce the risk to riders.

Chris Boardman rode earlier in the day and was concerned about what may happen in the race.

However, he also said it wasn't particularly any more dangerous than any other big mountain descent in terms of how a pro-cyclist thinks.

The problem is, its hard to have mountain stages without descents.

I think by insinuating a "lack of self preservation" you are underestimating their bike skills: They know how to ride a bike fast, and use it. We all do it, it's just that their skills allow them to go faster than many, with an inevitable increase in consequences.

Do you feel like you have no sense of self-preservation every time you get in your car, or get on your bike?

I think this is a big part of it. Many people might think things an experienced cyclist did were nuts, and yet they would have far more accidents than the experienced cyclist.

That said, whilst road cycling as a leisure pursuit is quite low risk and gentle, racing at any level is far from risk free, even just bunch incidents etc - at least in a descent the groups usually thin out a bit. If you race you'll see people crashing and breaking bones. It's not nice, but it's part of the sport if you race.

The TdF isn't short of mountain top finishes.

Yes but even stages with mountain top finishes will generally have a couple of big categorised climbs before the final climb, unless the organisers plan on busing them down to the bottom of the next climb then descending will remain part of racing.

It was an odd stage, I don't think the pedestrian pace sky used on the col de biche help matters made everything more frantic towards the end. Also bikes are getting quicker and more aero (along with the clothing). It always seems to be the wooded descents that cause the most issues bad sight lines, damp spots and less perceived risk.

Yes but even stages with mountain top finishes will generally have a couple of big categorised climbs before the final climb, unless the organisers plan on busing them down to the bottom of the next climb then descending will remain part of racing.

Well that was my point really. Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered and racing for position is different I think to descents earlier in the stage. That combined with a damp road doesn't make it unforeseeable that there are going to be problems.

I've done 55kph into the back of a stationary Audi estate...I can confirm that it hurt...a lot.

It's hard to race in the mountains without the threat/possibility of rain.

This all seems a bit knee jerk really. Sure, it's dangerous, it always has been, going at 70km/h on a skinny tyre round fast bends is always going to be dangerous... .but i'm not sure what the issue is.

Is anyone seeing massive complaints from the riders ?

It's hard to race in the mountains without the threat/possibility of rain.

Precisely, which is why the organisers should take it into account when deciding on the route.

This all seems a bit knee jerk really. Sure, it's dangerous, it always has been, going at 70km/h on a skinny tyre round fast bends is always going to be dangerous... .but i'm not sure what the issue is.